C'mon, I'm open ears, I feel like arguing about this right now.
C'mon, I'm open ears, I feel like arguing about this right now.
At one point in time the Universe held no life, and in another point in the future, it will hold no life. This lack of life, in your view, means god appears and reappears.
1. God is life
2. There is life
3. Therefore, god exists.
His argument and interpretation is one of the more ignorant ones I've seen. Meh. That's not to say circular logic doesn't work out, but it is pointless. Also, making massive generalizations, and calling all true atheists pessimistic is a bit too shallow for my tastes.
The universe as we know it is finite, which also means it had a beginning. It makes no sense to say that the universe popped up out of nowhere. Something must have sparked it's creation. If that thing was a finite thing then something must have sparked the creation of that thing and so on and so forth. If you go back far enough the only thing that could be is an infinite and everlasting force, which we call God.
God spelt backwards is dog.
Prove I should give a shit.
So basically the universe had a cause, and since it makes no sense for nothing to have caused it, something must have caused it, repeat until you get to an uncaused cause, ie God.
This is the First Cause argument. The main problem with this argument is the idea that every event has a cause. The Universe is actually ruled by Quantum Mechanics, where it is possible for events to have no cause. It also shows us that objects can appear out of nothing and disappear back into nothing. It also shows us that subatomic particles can disappear and reappear in a different place without traveling through the space between point a and point b. They can even be in more then one place at a time(like cloned but not). Also, an electron can travel from Point A to Point B by taking all paths possible simultaneously(Every single possible way to get to its destination, all at the same time).
This shows that "it makes no sense" viewpoint is extremely limited to a Newtonian physics perception, or basically, it makes no sense to how we view the world. Quantum Mechanics has been described as absurd, that it makes no sense.
Also, there's a scientific theory out there called Inflation. I'm just going to copy and paste a little description on it because I see no reason to put it in my own words.
There are also many well respected physicists such as Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss, Sean M. Carroll, Victor Stenger, Michio kaku, Robert A.J. Matthews and Frank Wilczek, that have all created scientific models where the Big Bang could come from nothing but quantum fluctuations of vacuum energy, naturally.
Lawrence also has shown that the universe is only 1% regular matter. A famous quote from him, "Why such a universe in which we're so irrelevant would be made for us is beyond me". Here is a good explanation. XXX
It is also wrong to assume that is impossible for an infinite amount of events to occur. In the Meta-Universe(Multiverse) theory, baby Universes pinch off from parent Universes. This allows an infinite amount of events to occur.
Also, if god is everlasting and infinite, other definitions define god as perfect, eternal, unchanging, why would God need a Universe and how could God change from not needing a Universe, to needing a Universe and creating one? God would have existed for an eternity, and then decided to create the Universe. Therefore he is not perfect or unchanging. I guess he could be eternal, but what is the point when everyone pegs him as perfect.
And what created your God? Everything has a cause, leading all the way back to the Uncaused Cause, ie God. I have already proved that events do not need a cause, but to delve deeper into this land of yours, what created God. Nothing in your religious text explains anything about the characteristics of God, they just explain the Universe, at the time and still to this day, a gigantic mystery, with another gigantic, unexplainable mystery. You cannot explain a mystery with a mystery, that's fallacious logic, and thus your argument makes no sense.
You're making things up. I've read up enough about quantum mechanics to know that anyone who says anything about the field with certainty is probably making things up. The fact that we can't determine a cause or reason for many of the things that happen in quantum mechanics does not mean things happen without cause, to assume things happen without cause just because it seems that way to us is illogical. Especially in a field like quantum mechanics where our understanding is almost zero.
The multiverse theory does not go against my explanation. It just means there are more finite universes instead of one.
God doesn't need anything. I don't know where you got the idea of God needing a universe.
Nothing created God, that's the entire point. I never said that everything needs a cause or spark, I said everything that's finite does. God is an infinite and everlasting force and therefore has no beginning and no end. If you don't believe in the existence of this force, you either think things just pop out of nowhere or that there was was beginning to all these finite things. Neither of which makes much sense.
Yes, all of the Quantum Physicists are just making things up. Also, we have observed, and even documented effects and forces that explain the randomness of Quantum Mechanics. We can determine that there is no cause for certain effects in Quantum Mechanics. An example would be the radioactive decay of a uranium atom. There is no cause, and we can only predict it with probability.
A cyclic multiverse does indeed goes against your belief. Ie an infinite, self sustaining loop of universes.
Why did god create a universe then. He didn't have a need for a Universe for an eternity, and then all of a sudden God creates one.
Both of which makes a lot of sense considering it is true and fact.
When Jesus was alive, he claimed to be God's son and he seemed like a decent guy, so I doubt he was lying.
Why are you assuming that all quantum physicists think that things in the quantum field happen without any cause? Like it or not, any claim that things can happen in the quantum field without a cause is baseless. I doubt there are any quantum physicists that actually claim that. At best there are some that think it's possible, like the person you quoted in the spoiler. Like I said before, just because we cannot determine the cause by current means does not mean a cause does not exist. Especially when particles can be linked despite being on opposite ends of the universe and it's speculated that all particles in the universe may be linked. Waaaaay too many variables to actually conclude anything actually happens without cause.
No it doesn't. A multiverse may be infinitely self-sustaining, but each individual universe is still finite as we know from our own. Meaning said multiverse can't be infinite in all ways like God and therefore God would still need to exist.
That's unknown and frankly has nothing to do with whether or not God exists.
So it's a fact that things can pop out of nowhere with no cause and that there was no beginning to finite events? Prove it then.
I don't think anyone can prove God exists. But the same holds true in saying that no one can prove He doesn't exist. The possibilities for both could still be true.
"The Control Tower of Hell, Yoichi Hiruma!"
I enjoy your explanation PoPs, about GOd, and that it is infinite and therefore it has (may I assume this?) neither a beginning nor an end. How can things exist then? If an energy is something that propels all matter to a causal end, then how does matter exist in the first place?
I mean energy can enjoy its own intricacies without having matter to intervene.
So in certain I believe that While God may be infinte, I think that all matter and all things are also infinte when looked from a perspective of Quantum mechanics, meaning it collapses upon itself in real time singularity points. Meaning everything collapses upon itself at all times in a singular point, meaning that everything is infinite in its own existance.
If you call all things together being infinite God, then you have made a certain assumption that God is infinite in its collection of infinite objects in infinite multiverses, but you haven't actually proven that God exists, or that he is a force that governs all. You have merely concluded hat the collection of Infinite Infinity is God.
Firstly you need to separate energy and Matter before you can make any assumption, and I believe making such an assumption/separation is already an act of god.
Last edited by RudeDude; 11-20-2012 at 06:31 PM.
The frog at the bottom of the well, doesn't know of the great sea.
It's not right to label God as energy as we know it. The idea is that because God is limitless that we cannot comprehend God's nature, although we may try. So even though I so use the word energy to describe God, that doesn't mean I'm thinking of energy as we know it.
I can understand the view that all things are infinite from certain perspectives, however God is unique because God is something that needs to infinite in infinite ways and not just though certain perspectives.
Of course, I can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that God exists. My goal was only to provide enough that God's existence can be proven to a reasonable degree.
If there is beauty than there is God. How can something that looks, feels and makes you think divine not come from something Divine?
Say what Again!
I'm sorry is this not the Samuel Jackson qoute thread.