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  1. #1

    Prove god exists.

    C'mon, I'm open ears, I feel like arguing about this right now.

  2. #2

  3. #3
    At one point in time the Universe held no life, and in another point in the future, it will hold no life. This lack of life, in your view, means god appears and reappears.

    Your argument:

    1. God is life
    2. There is life
    3. Therefore, god exists.

  4. #4
    His argument and interpretation is one of the more ignorant ones I've seen. Meh. That's not to say circular logic doesn't work out, but it is pointless. Also, making massive generalizations, and calling all true atheists pessimistic is a bit too shallow for my tastes.

  5. #5
    The universe as we know it is finite, which also means it had a beginning. It makes no sense to say that the universe popped up out of nowhere. Something must have sparked it's creation. If that thing was a finite thing then something must have sparked the creation of that thing and so on and so forth. If you go back far enough the only thing that could be is an infinite and everlasting force, which we call God.




    "Don't count the days, make the days count"

  6. #6

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    God spelt backwards is dog.

  7. #7
    Butthole Spelunker Jesse Riley O'keef's Avatar
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    Prove I should give a shit.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    The universe as we know it is finite, which also means it had a beginning. It makes no sense to say that the universe popped up out of nowhere. Something must have sparked it's creation. If that thing was a finite thing then something must have sparked the creation of that thing and so on and so forth. If you go back far enough the only thing that could be is an infinite and everlasting force, which we call God.
    So basically the universe had a cause, and since it makes no sense for nothing to have caused it, something must have caused it, repeat until you get to an uncaused cause, ie God.

    This is the First Cause argument. The main problem with this argument is the idea that every event has a cause. The Universe is actually ruled by Quantum Mechanics, where it is possible for events to have no cause. It also shows us that objects can appear out of nothing and disappear back into nothing. It also shows us that subatomic particles can disappear and reappear in a different place without traveling through the space between point a and point b. They can even be in more then one place at a time(like cloned but not). Also, an electron can travel from Point A to Point B by taking all paths possible simultaneously(Every single possible way to get to its destination, all at the same time).

    This shows that "it makes no sense" viewpoint is extremely limited to a Newtonian physics perception, or basically, it makes no sense to how we view the world. Quantum Mechanics has been described as absurd, that it makes no sense.

    Also, there's a scientific theory out there called Inflation. I'm just going to copy and paste a little description on it because I see no reason to put it in my own words.

    "The physicist and cosmologist Alan Guth of MIT has put forth the scientific theory, called Inflation, that the Big Bang was just the result of a random quantum event called a vacuum fluctuation — with no cause, created out of quantum indeterminacy, and with a total energy of zero. Even tho this doesn’t make sense in the Newtonian physics of our experience of the world, it does make sense in quantum mechanics and Einstein’s general relativity. In relativity, gravity is negative energy and matter is positive energy. Because the two seem to be equal in absolute total value, our observable universe appears balanced to the sum of zero. Our universe could thus have come into existence without violating conservation of mass and energy — with the matter of the universe condensing out of the positive energy as the universe cooled, and gravity created from the negative energy. When energy condenses into matter, equal parts of matter and antimatter are created — which annihilate each other to form energy. However there appears to be a slight imbalance to the process, which results in matter dominating over antimatter."


    There are also many well respected physicists such as Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss, Sean M. Carroll, Victor Stenger, Michio kaku, Robert A.J. Matthews and Frank Wilczek, that have all created scientific models where the Big Bang could come from nothing but quantum fluctuations of vacuum energy, naturally.

    Lawrence also has shown that the universe is only 1% regular matter. A famous quote from him, "Why such a universe in which we're so irrelevant would be made for us is beyond me". Here is a good explanation. XXX



    It is also wrong to assume that is impossible for an infinite amount of events to occur. In the Meta-Universe(Multiverse) theory, baby Universes pinch off from parent Universes. This allows an infinite amount of events to occur.

    Also, if god is everlasting and infinite, other definitions define god as perfect, eternal, unchanging, why would God need a Universe and how could God change from not needing a Universe, to needing a Universe and creating one? God would have existed for an eternity, and then decided to create the Universe. Therefore he is not perfect or unchanging. I guess he could be eternal, but what is the point when everyone pegs him as perfect.

    And what created your God? Everything has a cause, leading all the way back to the Uncaused Cause, ie God. I have already proved that events do not need a cause, but to delve deeper into this land of yours, what created God. Nothing in your religious text explains anything about the characteristics of God, they just explain the Universe, at the time and still to this day, a gigantic mystery, with another gigantic, unexplainable mystery. You cannot explain a mystery with a mystery, that's fallacious logic, and thus your argument makes no sense.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Novader View Post
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    So basically the universe had a cause, and since it makes no sense for nothing to have caused it, something must have caused it, repeat until you get to an uncaused cause, ie God.

    This is the First Cause argument. The main problem with this argument is the idea that every event has a cause. The Universe is actually ruled by Quantum Mechanics, where it is possible for events to have no cause. It also shows us that objects can appear out of nothing and disappear back into nothing. It also shows us that subatomic particles can disappear and reappear in a different place without traveling through the space between point a and point b. They can even be in more then one place at a time(like cloned but not). Also, an electron can travel from Point A to Point B by taking all paths possible simultaneously(Every single possible way to get to its destination, all at the same time).

    This shows that "it makes no sense" viewpoint is extremely limited to a Newtonian physics perception, or basically, it makes no sense to how we view the world. Quantum Mechanics has been described as absurd, that it makes no sense.

    Also, there's a scientific theory out there called Inflation. I'm just going to copy and paste a little description on it because I see no reason to put it in my own words.

    "The physicist and cosmologist Alan Guth of MIT has put forth the scientific theory, called Inflation, that the Big Bang was just the result of a random quantum event called a vacuum fluctuation — with no cause, created out of quantum indeterminacy, and with a total energy of zero. Even tho this doesn’t make sense in the Newtonian physics of our experience of the world, it does make sense in quantum mechanics and Einstein’s general relativity. In relativity, gravity is negative energy and matter is positive energy. Because the two seem to be equal in absolute total value, our observable universe appears balanced to the sum of zero. Our universe could thus have come into existence without violating conservation of mass and energy — with the matter of the universe condensing out of the positive energy as the universe cooled, and gravity created from the negative energy. When energy condenses into matter, equal parts of matter and antimatter are created — which annihilate each other to form energy. However there appears to be a slight imbalance to the process, which results in matter dominating over antimatter."


    There are also many well respected physicists such as Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss, Sean M. Carroll, Victor Stenger, Michio kaku, Robert A.J. Matthews and Frank Wilczek, that have all created scientific models where the Big Bang could come from nothing but quantum fluctuations of vacuum energy, naturally.

    Lawrence also has shown that the universe is only 1% regular matter. A famous quote from him, "Why such a universe in which we're so irrelevant would be made for us is beyond me". Here is a good explanation. XXX



    It is also wrong to assume that is impossible for an infinite amount of events to occur. In the Meta-Universe(Multiverse) theory, baby Universes pinch off from parent Universes. This allows an infinite amount of events to occur.

    Also, if god is everlasting and infinite, other definitions define god as perfect, eternal, unchanging, why would God need a Universe and how could God change from not needing a Universe, to needing a Universe and creating one? God would have existed for an eternity, and then decided to create the Universe. Therefore he is not perfect or unchanging. I guess he could be eternal, but what is the point when everyone pegs him as perfect.

    And what created your God? Everything has a cause, leading all the way back to the Uncaused Cause, ie God. I have already proved that events do not need a cause, but to delve deeper into this land of yours, what created God. Nothing in your religious text explains anything about the characteristics of God, they just explain the Universe, at the time and still to this day, a gigantic mystery, with another gigantic, unexplainable mystery. You cannot explain a mystery with a mystery, that's fallacious logic, and thus your argument makes no sense.
    You're making things up. I've read up enough about quantum mechanics to know that anyone who says anything about the field with certainty is probably making things up. The fact that we can't determine a cause or reason for many of the things that happen in quantum mechanics does not mean things happen without cause, to assume things happen without cause just because it seems that way to us is illogical. Especially in a field like quantum mechanics where our understanding is almost zero.

    The multiverse theory does not go against my explanation. It just means there are more finite universes instead of one.

    God doesn't need anything. I don't know where you got the idea of God needing a universe.

    Nothing created God, that's the entire point. I never said that everything needs a cause or spark, I said everything that's finite does. God is an infinite and everlasting force and therefore has no beginning and no end. If you don't believe in the existence of this force, you either think things just pop out of nowhere or that there was was beginning to all these finite things. Neither of which makes much sense.




    "Don't count the days, make the days count"

  10. #10
    I am God. I exist.
    Rest in Peace Dad
    June 15-1950 - October 21, 2015


    Oh the Irony:

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    You're making things up. I've read up enough about quantum mechanics to know that anyone who says anything about the field with certainty is probably making things up. The fact that we can't determine a cause or reason for many of the things that happen in quantum mechanics does not mean things happen without cause, to assume things happen without cause just because it seems that way to us is illogical. Especially in a field like quantum mechanics where our understanding is almost zero.

    The multiverse theory does not go against my explanation. It just means there are more finite universes instead of one.

    God doesn't need anything. I don't know where you got the idea of God needing a universe.

    Nothing created God, that's the entire point. I never said that everything needs a cause or spark, I said everything that's finite does. God is an infinite and everlasting force and therefore has no beginning and no end. If you don't believe in the existence of this force, you either think things just pop out of nowhere or that there was was beginning to all these finite things. Neither of which makes much sense.
    Yes, all of the Quantum Physicists are just making things up. Also, we have observed, and even documented effects and forces that explain the randomness of Quantum Mechanics. We can determine that there is no cause for certain effects in Quantum Mechanics. An example would be the radioactive decay of a uranium atom. There is no cause, and we can only predict it with probability.

    A cyclic multiverse does indeed goes against your belief. Ie an infinite, self sustaining loop of universes.

    Why did god create a universe then. He didn't have a need for a Universe for an eternity, and then all of a sudden God creates one.

    Both of which makes a lot of sense considering it is true and fact.

  12. #12
    DoflaMihawk's Avatar
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    When Jesus was alive, he claimed to be God's son and he seemed like a decent guy, so I doubt he was lying.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Novader View Post
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    Yes, all of the Quantum Physicists are just making things up. Also, we have observed, and even documented effects and forces that explain the randomness of Quantum Mechanics. We can determine that there is no cause for certain effects in Quantum Mechanics. An example would be the radioactive decay of a uranium atom. There is no cause, and we can only predict it with probability.

    A cyclic multiverse does indeed goes against your belief. Ie an infinite, self sustaining loop of universes.

    Why did god create a universe then. He didn't have a need for a Universe for an eternity, and then all of a sudden God creates one.

    Both of which makes a lot of sense considering it is true and fact.
    Why are you assuming that all quantum physicists think that things in the quantum field happen without any cause? Like it or not, any claim that things can happen in the quantum field without a cause is baseless. I doubt there are any quantum physicists that actually claim that. At best there are some that think it's possible, like the person you quoted in the spoiler. Like I said before, just because we cannot determine the cause by current means does not mean a cause does not exist. Especially when particles can be linked despite being on opposite ends of the universe and it's speculated that all particles in the universe may be linked. Waaaaay too many variables to actually conclude anything actually happens without cause.

    No it doesn't. A multiverse may be infinitely self-sustaining, but each individual universe is still finite as we know from our own. Meaning said multiverse can't be infinite in all ways like God and therefore God would still need to exist.

    That's unknown and frankly has nothing to do with whether or not God exists.

    So it's a fact that things can pop out of nowhere with no cause and that there was no beginning to finite events? Prove it then.




    "Don't count the days, make the days count"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SnQrls View Post
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    His argument and interpretation is one of the more ignorant ones I've seen. Meh. That's not to say circular logic doesn't work out, but it is pointless. Also, making massive generalizations, and calling all true atheists pessimistic is a bit too shallow for my tastes.
    stop being too literal. it was merely a draft (henche the spam section), and that means you have to look at the context.

  15. #15
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    I don't think anyone can prove God exists. But the same holds true in saying that no one can prove He doesn't exist. The possibilities for both could still be true.

  16. #16
    I enjoy your explanation PoPs, about GOd, and that it is infinite and therefore it has (may I assume this?) neither a beginning nor an end. How can things exist then? If an energy is something that propels all matter to a causal end, then how does matter exist in the first place?

    I mean energy can enjoy its own intricacies without having matter to intervene.

    So in certain I believe that While God may be infinte, I think that all matter and all things are also infinte when looked from a perspective of Quantum mechanics, meaning it collapses upon itself in real time singularity points. Meaning everything collapses upon itself at all times in a singular point, meaning that everything is infinite in its own existance.

    If you call all things together being infinite God, then you have made a certain assumption that God is infinite in its collection of infinite objects in infinite multiverses, but you haven't actually proven that God exists, or that he is a force that governs all. You have merely concluded hat the collection of Infinite Infinity is God.

    Firstly you need to separate energy and Matter before you can make any assumption, and I believe making such an assumption/separation is already an act of god.
    Last edited by rub bear he reap one; 11-20-2012 at 06:31 PM.


    People think it's the alone of being forever alone that hurts the most, but that's not true. Everybody's alone sometimes, whether for periods when they're not dating anyone or just for a weekend while their spouse is at a conference. Alone is part of the human condition. It's the forever that pulls down the corners of your mouth just a little bit when you give someone a smile meant to indicate that everything's okay with you even though you want to scream that nothing's okay and never will be. It's the forever that tastes bitter in the back of your throat when you see a happy couple walking in the park or laughing in a restaurant. It's the forever that has you wide awake staring at your ceiling into the wee hours of the morning.Forever alone.
    There's an ongoing half-serious claim in our culture that men think about sex all the time. Every 17 seconds or so. That may be true for some guys but not a forever alone. After awhile you stop being able to think about sex, at least the way other people do. You can think about it abstractly, or when watching other people perform a stylized version of it alone in your room while you use your hand to joylessly complete a sad shadow of the biological imperative, but you stop being able to imagine sex as something you could be a part of. You see a woman in the springtime, her midriff peeking out from between the soft cotton of a shirt and the rougher waist of a pair of jeans. You start to imagine her naked, constructing a fantasy in detail, the way her breasts would sit against her chest, the soft down or absence thereof on her pubic area, and then you try to insert yourself into her presence and the fantasy crumbles to dust under the weight of its own absurdity. You know there's no chain of events, no course of actions, that could lead to that ill defined imaginary room where the two of you would meet in an act of carnal congress. There's no way to there from where you are, it's not even an alternate universe, it's an inconceivable one. It's like trying to imagine a world where everything else is the same except elephants float around like helium balloons and have to be anchored by their trunks or they'll float away. An inherently absurd thought. That's the idea of you and her being intimate. So you look away from that tiny sliver of skin, trying to keep your face from contorting in pain and bitterness. Where other men might smile at her you don't, because your smile sucks, and you suck. Forever alone.
    Eventually you don't even bother to build the image only to have it blow it away like a sand painting in a tornado. You imagine lesser things. The brush of a cool, soft, feminine hand against yours. Mundane couple bullshit like eating pancakes on a Sunday morning or watching a movie or just sharing your day with someone who gives a fuck and is not your mother. The other party in these pathetic little domestic tableaus is ill defined in your mind, because if you imagined her clearly enough to make her realistic then you know she wouldn't want you. And even with this feminine blur, this placeholder, this blurry silhouette of nothingness you project your emotions onto, the person she's with isn't really you. It's a better version of you, a thinner less obnoxious version who will control his temper before saying something cutting, who doesn't geek out and talk too much, who is free from the flaws who make you who you are and assure that nobody else will ever want to share their life with that person. Then you realize that you're fantasizing about an Archie Comics version of yourself making tomato soup for an undefined feminine projection blob, and you realize that even the part of you that creates these images doesn't want to be with you and can't imagine anyone who might. Forever alone.
    Around you the world stays mostly the same. People fall in love, hit milestones, get married, have kids. You're even jealous of the divorcees because you know that this is just a bump in the road for them, part of their journey. You're still at the starting line watching them recede, wanting to chase them and catch up, knowing you never will. But while the world is almost static, you are aging. Moving through your life alone. You start to get bitter at the milestones you've missed and the chances you'll never have. You see the graying of your hair and the years piling on like rust eating at the hull of a decommissioned ship and you realize that your opportunity for young love is already past. Even if you got it together and got in the game you'd just have a shot at middle aged love. It doesn't matter if you think women age like a fine wine, what wine connoisseur wants to live his life without ever tasting the shocking astringency of the harsh tanins of youth. Even if that's not your thing you don't want to cut it off forever. But you have. You won't even have memories of those very good years, as the song says, to keep you warm as you slide towards your dotage. All you have is your bursting store room of regrets and bitterness, and you can always cram in more. And you know that that rusty battleship will some day have a hole in its hull and be fixable, good for nothing more than salvage scrap. You add up the time it would take to lose the weight, get your teeth fixed, figure out your professional career, the time until you can smile at that woman in the coffee shop with confidence rather than the stomach sickness of self hate, and you realize it all adds up to a very big number. Everyone thinks of themselves as eternally 22 but at some point you are forced to admit that you are 37 and half your life is over and the back nine of the remaining half is not a time when people finally get that whole dating thing right. If the window is not closed its halfway there and sliding fast. Forever alone.
    All this breeds desperation and depression so you shove it back because you need to function, you need to keep eating and staying warm, you can't just stop and feel. But your dam is fragile and it leaks. And when you see that girl whose hand you want to brush against, who could sit with you looking into your eyes through the steam coming off her coffee cup and just be, who could understand you (she probably couldn't, but this is something men like to project on to women) you feel the dam start to buckle and the river behind it start to surge and you don't want to break down crying in the coffee shop because that's not what people do and if you can't have love at least you can have dignity, or the appearance of dignity, or the delusion of the appearance of dignity, so you turn your face to the side, you hope and pray she doesn't try to draw your attention (generally safe on that count, old chum) and you put one fucking foot in front of the other and continue down your sad and barren blighted path. Forever alone.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rubbereruben View Post
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    I enjoy your explanation PoPs, about GOd, and that it is infinite and therefore it has (may I assume this?) neither a beginning nor an end. How can things exist then? If an energy is something that propels all matter to a causal end, then how does matter exist in the first place?

    I mean energy can enjoy its own intricacies without having matter to intervene.

    So in certain I believe that While God may be infinte, I think that all matter and all things are also infinte when looked from a perspective of Quantum mechanics, meaning it collapses upon itself in real time singularity points. Meaning everything collapses upon itself at all times in a singular point, meaning that everything is infinite in its own existance.

    If you call all things together being infinite God, then you have made a certain assumption that God is infinite in its collection of infinite object in infinite multiverses, but you haven't actually proven that God exists, or that he is a force that governs all.
    It's not right to label God as energy as we know it. The idea is that because God is limitless that we cannot comprehend God's nature, although we may try. So even though I so use the word energy to describe God, that doesn't mean I'm thinking of energy as we know it.

    I can understand the view that all things are infinite from certain perspectives, however God is unique because God is something that needs to infinite in infinite ways and not just though certain perspectives.

    Of course, I can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that God exists. My goal was only to provide enough that God's existence can be proven to a reasonable degree.




    "Don't count the days, make the days count"

  18. #18
    bode expiatório Kaang's Avatar
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    If there is beauty than there is God. How can something that looks, feels and makes you think divine not come from something Divine?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Novader View Post
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    C'mon, I'm open ears, I feel like arguing about this right now.
    The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.



  20. #20
    bode expiatório Kaang's Avatar
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    Say what Again!

    I'm sorry is this not the Samuel Jackson qoute thread.

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