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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    That's a single battlefield split into different units. Ouki could overlook all of it from a single point.

    The Shukai plains battlefields are so far apart that it's physically impossible to see one from the other, that's why Riboku had to ride out to tell them how to beat Akou. How are you not seeing the difference here?

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    It does, because there's no need for 2 heads on 1 battlefield.
    Wtf are you talking about, that has exactly nothing to do with my point

    of course it would have made no sense for Tou to take over the Doukin and Rinbou army an take the heads of Shoumou and Mangoku.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    "Our left wing lead by Gyou'un and the others" lol. It's been specifically stated a few times that they're working as independent armies with no chain of command. Think it was Ouhon that said it when they came up with the plan to take out Gakuei.
    i'm not denying that they're working independently.

    however, it's disingenuous to claim that their roles are equal or even when ri boku is pretty explicitly putting gyou'un higher than the rest.

    ri boku's words imply that, while they're working independently, gyou'un is definitively the top general on zhao's side over there, and essentially represents the leader of that wing. even though he's not ordering them around it wouldn't be accurate to insist that he's not the leader, and they're all playing even roles when ri boku outright refers to that side as "gyou'un's left wing"

    which is why he's constantly portrayed in the leaders mantle.

    for example, nobody could objectively claim a bunch of commanders crowded around one man sitting in a chair is portraying a group of equal standing.




    Kanou and Moubu were in separate places though, there isn't a comparison to be made. Same way in which Akou and Makou are in different places.
    ?

    kan ou was sent to mou bu's side after the first day

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    But Tou wasn't an army commander or even a general at that point.
    he was a lieutenant.

    lieutenants are not as limited in their actions as you're implying.

    ou ki could definitely have delegated one of his wings to tou if that were his wish.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    We had 3 different battlefronts. Doukin, Ryuukoku and Rinbou together had 40'000 men while Tou was held as toyboy at Oukis side.
    Honestly a better comparison would be if Ouki sent Tou with 20k men to fight alongside Doukin with his 20k, Rokuomi with his 20k and Rinbou with his 20k, none of whom would have superiority over the others. It just wouldn't happen.

  4. #24
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    Wtf are you talking about, that has exactly nothing to do with my point

    of course it would have made no sense for Tou to take over the Doukin and Rinbou army an take the heads of Shoumou and Mangoku.
    You're mixing oranges and apples. Tou was never deployed, he stood by Ouki's side. Why didn't that happen? Who knows. But he was never on a battlefield together with Doukin, Rinbou or anyone else. He especially wasn't on a battlefield with others and -not- considered their superior commander.

    Gyou'un was deployed, he was assigned to a wing. A wing with 3 other commanders. Among the 4, no one was the leader, hence they couldn't cut off their "head", and had to take out 1 commander per day, or at least that's what they planned.

    What you're saying is a matter of strategy, or "why wasn't Tou used", as opposed to "why wasn't Gyou'un the leader of the Zhao left wing". Riboku throwing in a remark after 9 days how it's Gyou'un's wing doesn't change the fact that the Zhao left never had a commander who orchestrated the fights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Honestly a better comparison would be if Ouki sent Tou with 20k men to fight alongside Doukin with his 20k, Rokuomi with his 20k and Rinbou with his 20k, none of whom would have superiority over the others. It just wouldn't happen.
    Exactly, that's the crucial difference here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    ou ki could definitely have delegated one of his wings to tou if that were his wish.
    Like I said, this is a matter of strategy and Ouki's use of resources, not a matter of hierarchy. Had Tou been deployed anywhere, everyone else would've been answering to him, which is a clear distinction to what's happening on the Zhao left.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Oh, so now Shin was leading the HSU and could've done it all without Ten? Because that's what you're saying. Gyou'un is leading, so it makes no difference if you remove the brain. Even Ouhon said there was no chain of command.
    that's not what i'm saying...

    the example was obviously to show that someone can still be at the top of an army's chain of command while having someone else strategize their movements. cgr being the brain doesn't take away from gyou'un being the leader, just like k.r. ten being the hsu's brain doesn't mean shin is no longer the head of his own unit.
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  6. #26
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    that's not what i'm saying...

    the example was obviously to show that someone can still be at the top of an army's chain of command while having someone else strategize their movements. cgr being the brain doesn't take away from gyou'un being the leader, just like k.r. ten being the hsu's brain doesn't mean shin is no longer the head of his own unit.
    Read the last sentence. Their strategy of taking them out one at a time was a product of the fact that there was no "head" that they could cut off.

  7. #27
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    you must've missed my response to kanki somehow
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  8. #28
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    you must've missed my response to kanki somehow
    No, you just said a bunch of random things. Being slightly better isn't the same as being their leader/superior, just like Rokuomi isn't the leader of Tou's vassals. Hell, Kaishibou was considered the leader of the 4HK in name, yet he wasn't singled out.

    On the other hand, you have yet to address the fact that no one among Ouhon, Akou, Shin or Ten felt like Gyou'un was some kind of figurehead. Hence, killing him wouldn't have solved anything. Certainly, a greater boon than killing Gakuei, but not something that would end the battle.

  9. #29
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    ok, there's no way you're not trolling now
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  10. #30
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    ok, there's no way you're not trolling now



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    ok, there's no way you're not trolling now
    Man I can't believe this came out of you before someone told you the same thing, for real I was hesitating PMing you just to be sure but was afraid you'd get offended and then you drop that

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Honestly a better comparison would be if Ouki sent Tou with 20k men to fight alongside Doukin with his 20k, Rokuomi with his 20k and Rinbou with his 20k, none of whom would have superiority over the others. It just wouldn't happen.
    Again that wasnt my point, the question of this thread is why he didnt use him beforehand and you questioned why he wasnt in charge of anything more than his 10'000 army if he is a Tou-copy (while i fully understand your logic by the way). Ouki didnt use Tou either even though we know he is the real deal and an actual 6GG character himself and still he gave more crucial tasks at least at the beginning to his army commanders. Thats what i call another "Tou-Parallel".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    You're mixing oranges and apples. Tou was never deployed, he stood by Ouki's side. Why didn't that happen? Who knows. But he was never on a battlefield together with Doukin, Rinbou or anyone else. He especially wasn't on a battlefield with others and -not- considered their superior commander.

    Gyou'un was deployed, he was assigned to a wing. A wing with 3 other commanders. Among the 4, no one was the leader, hence they couldn't cut off their "head", and had to take out 1 commander per day, or at least that's what they planned.

    What you're saying is a matter of strategy, or "why wasn't Tou used", as opposed to "why wasn't Gyou'un the leader of the Zhao left wing". Riboku throwing in a remark after 9 days how it's Gyou'un's wing doesn't change the fact that the Zhao left never had a commander who orchestrated the fights.

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    Exactly, that's the crucial difference here.

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    Like I said, this is a matter of strategy and Ouki's use of resources, not a matter of hierarchy. Had Tou been deployed anywhere, everyone else would've been answering to him, which is a clear distinction to what's happening on the Zhao left.
    Again not my point, my point is that both would be underused

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dai Don Dedede View Post
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    Man I can't believe this came out of you before someone told you the same thing, for real I was hesitating PMing you just to be sure but was afraid you'd get offended and then you drop that
    i mean, what part makes you think that

    you may be very very disagreeable, but don't see you as unreasonable, so
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    Again that wasnt my point, the question of this thread is why he didnt use him beforehand and you questioned why he wasnt in charge of anything more than his 10'000 army if he is a Tou-copy (while i fully understand your logic by the way). Ouki didnt use Tou either even though we know he is the real deal and an actual 6GG character himself and still he gave more crucial tasks at least at the beginning to his army commanders. Thats what i call another "Tou-Parallel".

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    Again not my point, my point is that both would be underused
    I agree that Tou not being used before looks kinda weird. The way I tried to explain that to myself is that the main point of this battle for Ouki was to kill Houken with his own hands. For that he needed to have Tou available at any time so that he could take care of the war if he had a chance to go for Houken. That's kinda what happened in the end, Tou was tasked with finishing the battle and taking the brains out while Ouki got to duel Houken. Going after Houken in a duel was not the best choice and kinda ungeneral-ey but he avoided jeopardizing the whole battle if he had Tou covering for him

  15. #35
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    i mean, what part makes you think that

    you may be very very disagreeable, but don't see you as unreasonable, so
    The fact that you keep dancing around that panel but never respond to it?


  16. #36
    Pretty Flacko Jr. bootleg boy's Avatar
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    like i said, i addressed that in response to kan ki. it's beyond me how but somehow you just didn't understand anything said in that post.

    as i already said, i'm not denying that they were working individually. however, ri boku's words, and other portrayal imply the existence of a hierarchy even though they're not constantly coordinating under someone's command.
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  17. #37
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    like i said, i addressed that in response to kan ki. it's beyond me how but somehow you just didn't understand anything said in that post.

    as i already said, i'm not denying that they were working individually. however, ri boku's words, and other portrayal imply the existence of a hierarchy even though they're not constantly coordinating under someone's command.
    Nah, I understood your post. You just said something untrue, that is all.

    If they're all independent, and there's no hierarchy...well, the rest doesn't matter. Be it in name, or in actuality, Gyou'un isn't important enough for his downfall to mark the downfall of the entire wing. Hence, the tactic.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    like i said, i addressed that in response to kan ki. it's beyond me how but somehow you just didn't understand anything said in that post.

    as i already said, i'm not denying that they were working individually. however, ri boku's words, and other portrayal imply the existence of a hierarchy even though they're not constantly coordinating under someone's command.
    Gyou'un was following CGR strategies prior to the awakening moment and somehow you keep ignoring Ousen remarks on CGR as the brain of the left and it's enough to bring the advantage for Qin if he was taken out.

    It's very clear from the hype and portrayal those 3 are on the same level like Rinko, Kyouen, and Kashibou or Rinbou, Ryukoku, and Rokumoi but not Tou-Rokuomi

  19. #39
    Yeah Ousen's comments on Chougaryu is a powerful statement tbh. Whether that pulls Gyou'un down a peg, boosts Chougaryu or a bit of both is up for a debate.

  20. #40
    By the way i would say he was so sure that his plan would destroy the left wing of Qin that he held Gyouun by his side to attack Ousens center after that.

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