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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    If you remember back at Koku You, Kanki had 58k in total. In Chiyoyou, Tou had a total of 54k. The 50-60k range is already GG territory, and if we're not given a good enough reason, there's no need to assume someone can handle it. What's a good enough reason? Well, Reiou being the best (or #2) strategist of the 7FD and a mentor to GHM is an obvious one; Genpou having the same int, being a tutor to many great figures and the Chief of Military is another; and other similar examples.

    Gyou'un on the other hand is 1 of 10 vassals, currently leads 10k men and isn't even the brain of his wing, it's CGR. For a start, RSJ was obviously the CiC and brain of every battle they fought. Then, even if Gyou'un was the most well rounded, it makes no sense for him to command more men than CGR, the actual brain of RSJ's vassals. Finally, considering Gyou'un was the symbol of might and the man to mow down front lines, it makes even less sense for him to dictate the battle while CGR, the brain, is sitting in front of a desk.
    I didn't say he could lead 100k. But IIRC Kyouen had 40k so surely Gyou'un can replicate that?

  2. #22
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    a general by definition in kingdom is a commander who can lead tens of thousands

    heki lead 40k on his first campaign as a general

    rsj didn’t need to divide his generals completely evenly

    gyou’un isn’t the brain, but ri boku had just said he was the leader of the wing a few chapters back

    these arguments are ridiculously disingenuous
    Yes, and a general by definition ranges from Eibi from Ouki. What's your point?

    How did that go for Heki? I'm sure he micro-managed it and pulled off the most intricate and successful strategies.

    He didn't need to, but if you think his 10 vassals were split 40k Gyou'un, 40k CGR and then 20k to the 8, treat yourself.

    Riboku didn't say he was the leader, he said "Gyou'un wing" which can be interpreted in as many ways as you want. Ousen saying CGR is the brain, however, has one, and only one single interpretation. Oh, and that's more recent than Riboku's comment, since that's your go-to argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I didn't say he could lead 100k. But IIRC Kyouen had 40k so surely Gyou'un can replicate that?
    Not sure, you'd have to go check back on that. Kyouen is also a unique case because, for one, he used to be a stand alone general and fought the likes of Kyou and Renpa, and he has a unique method of communication.

    Not that I see how Gyou'un being able to lead 40k helps him here.

  3. #23
    Pretty Flacko Jr. bootleg boy's Avatar
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    you can't be serious...
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  4. #24
    I think the 10 generals will have worked together. For eg Gyou'un working with 30k and two other generals with him dictating.

    IIRC Rinbou and Doukin combined at Bayou and so did Moubu and Rokuomi at one point and that one at least certainly had a pecking order. Zhao also combined Mangoku and Kousonryuu IIRC.

    60K is a big army I admit so may be the biggest he has ever led, but I'm confident he could do it. Kanki had never done 58k before that we know of for eg.

  5. #25
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I think the 10 generals will have worked together. For eg Gyou'un working with 30k and two other generals with him dictating.
    I could see that being the case. Still, that would mean he never took command over 30k by his lonesome. Even if he did, he's still far away from Reiou and the 100k present in this thread.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    I could see that being the case. Still, that would mean he never took command over 30k by his lonesome. Even if he did, he's still far away from Reiou and the 100k present in this thread.
    It's 60k vs 60k.

  7. #27
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    It's 60k vs 60k.
    Oh.

    Doesn't change the outcome as Reiou is a far better strategist with a fighter that's strong enough to stall Gyou'un. It could change if it was 10k or maybe even 5k and Gyou'un managed to edge it out on momentum, but even then, if Ranbi-chan stalls for long enough they'll win.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I think the 10 generals will have worked together. For eg Gyou'un working with 30k and two other generals with him dictating.

    IIRC Rinbou and Doukin combined at Bayou and so did Moubu and Rokuomi at one point and that one at least certainly had a pecking order. Zhao also combined Mangoku and Kousonryuu IIRC.

    60K is a big army I admit so may be the biggest he has ever led, but I'm confident he could do it. Kanki had never done 58k before that we know of for eg.
    Well given that 50k of those 58k were his own bandits he had to have led these kinds of numbers before

  9. #29
    Going from the approximation of maximum 30k that he might usually leads to a 60k is honestly a big leap tbh.

    Especially when we're not even sure RSJ always bring 100k army or that Gyou'un get 30k army share of it

  10. #30
    Akou = 20k
    Makou = 20k
    Ousen+Denrimi+Sou'ou = 30k

    Moubu= 20k
    Rokuomi= 20k
    Ryuukoku= 20k
    Rinbou= 10k
    Kanou= 10k
    Doukin= 10k
    Ouki+Tou= 10k

    It surely depend on each GG to deploy their vassals as they see fit. Also it is unreasonable to think Gyou'un can't lead 50k if someone like Rinbukun can.

  11. #31
    We know how bad Rinbukun is at using that 50k troops though

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Great General View Post
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    Akou = 20k
    Makou = 20k
    Ousen+Denrimi+Sou'ou = 30k

    Moubu= 20k
    Rokuomi= 20k
    Ryuukoku= 20k
    Rinbou= 10k
    Kanou= 10k
    Doukin= 10k
    Ouki+Tou= 10k

    It surely depend on each GG to deploy their vassals as they see fit. Also it is unreasonable to think Gyou'un can't lead 50k if someone like Rinbukun can.
    That sort of would just go to show why it would be difficult for Gyou'un to be leading massive numbers as part of the Gyou'un army.

    In the Bayou example you posted even Ouki's lesser vassals like Doukin are given 10k numbers to work with. Moubu who is by far and away the most powerful force on the field has to make due with 20k because there's simply not enough to go around, and Rinshoujou has even more vassals to accommodate.

    In the Ousen example he has four generals to work with and can only afford 20k to his two wing commanders, he has two vassals in his HQ but his center is bolstered with the bulk of the numbers to reflect that. There's just not much room for Gyou'un to have been provided with massive armies under his command unless there's some absurd wonky distribution that goes completely against the norm. Even if he just benched half the team and kept them at HQ for whatever reason, he'd still then have to bulk up his numbers at HQ to compensate for their presence there.

  13. #33
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    two mediocre generals commanding pretty large armies. one 70k, and the other 40k.

    crazy how we really have people arguing that gyou'un can't command as many men as these two.

    shouldn't judge a commanders ability to manipulate a number of troops based on the structure of the army he was formerly apart of. ou ki had 5 army commanders, and a lieutenant. based on that most of you probably would've believed it was a stretch for tou to command all the troops he has at his disposal as well, but he manages.

    not to mention how a generals subs don't always work as a part of the main army. look at how roku o mi, and ryuu koku have been fighting apart from tou since choyou.
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  14. #34
    I doubt the point was he cant lead an army that big, more like he cant lead an army that big with the same efficient as his 10'000 army.

  15. #35
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    The question is not whether he can lead them at all or not, it's whether he's able to do it effectively. The examples you show have generals just throwing troops at their enemy. Not to mention that it's not just an issue of being good or not, Ouhon has been more adept tactically than most generals since his introduction, yet 300 man commander Ouhon was not fit to lead 10k men, heck Tou even though that after Chouyou Ouhon was still too green to do it.


    If you give him 40k against Rokuomi with 40k it's not the same as putting him against Reiou. There's absolutely nothing suggesting he'd be able to effectively lead a huge army against someone like that apart from pure speculation. I rate Reiou's strategy or Keisha's instinct way above Shin's budding instincts in his first battle as an actual commander and yet that was enough to handle Gyou Un at the scale he is supposedly the most used to. In the same way I'd rate Reiou above Chougaryu without doubt, yet he is the one the Zhao left wing turns to for organization, which leads me to believe that Gyou Un is less efficient than Chougaryu at operating with an army that size and thus by default less efficient than Reiou.

    About other generals doing it, I'd say Rinko and Kaishibou are good examples of what I mean. We know they lead this amount of people, but do we seriously expect them to be able to do anything complicated with them? Same with Bayou Moubu (which I rate higher than any of the others here), would you expect him to be able to contend with Reiou with 60k men or Keisha with 100k men? They're not necessarily gonna be all over the place like Shin was when he became a 1k commander, but they're clearly gonna be out of their comfort zone. That's a concept that was introduced as far back as Bayou with Ouki talking about different types of generals.

  16. #36
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    in those examples i gave they're commanding their armies with a level of efficiency that is reflective of their overall ability. this was heki's first campaign, and there was no mention or show of any difficulty he had in translating his skills to that task.

    i agree that gyou'un would lose here, but to argue that he'd suffer from an inability to efficiently command an army this large contradicts the concept of a general.

    rin ko, and kai shi bou surely wouldn't do anything complicated with numbers this large, but they also wouldn't do anything complicated with 10k. that's just not their style. however, they most definitely wouldn't start losing efficiency the more their numbers go up in this range, either. especially not when considering all their accumulated experience.

    oh, and they also weren't just throwing their troops at each other in those examples. if you read the page it says that heki overcame that difference in numbers with his handy by the book tactics.
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  17. #37
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    however, they most definitely wouldn't start losing efficiency the more their numbers go up in this range, either. especially not when considering all their accumulated experience.
    That goes against everything this manga has shown. This goes against real life too, as the world doesn't function by slapping a x5 factor onto things and calling it a day.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    That goes against everything this manga has shown. This goes against real life too, as the world doesn't function by slapping a x5 factor onto things and calling it a day.
    i literally just gave an in-series example of something that contradicts this notion, and explained it



    there's plenty of others too. there's a reason the hsu isn't overwhelmed by their new numbers every time they're promoted, and a reason why shin was able to suddenly take command over the whole 8k strong hsu even though he hasn't done so properly since he was a 300-man commander.

    skill, and experience translates to ones ability to command larger numbers.
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  19. #39
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    i literally just gave an in-series example of something that contradicts this notion, and explained it



    there's plenty of others too. there's a reason the hsu isn't overwhelmed by their new numbers every time they're promoted, and a reason why shin was able to suddenly take command over the whole 8k strong hsu even though he hasn't done so properly since he was a 300-man commander.

    skill, and experience translates to ones ability to command larger numbers.
    The new gen are growing, and growing up to become the top of the world, so that's not even an argument.

    What then do you think is a difference between a 5k commander and a general, or a GG? Why aren't people like Kakubi, who are recognized as great talents, promoted to generals straight away?

    It's unreal how you don't see the issue of adding numbers. Do you think Gyou'un can split 60k men into units of 50-200 and make calls like he does on 10k? It's like you've never run into real-life efficiency issues and aren't familiar with the concept of increasing the workload for the same amount of workforce. You're throwing the concept of GGs and large-scale strategists into the trash because there's this one dude you're fond of, so now the whole verse will align itself so he can shine.

  20. #40
    Pretty Flacko Jr. bootleg boy's Avatar
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    dude, i just gave you a perfect example of a commander efficiently utilizing a number of men vastly greater than what he's used to on his first time, and you dismissed it because of his talent while pushing this weird generalization of my argument as if kaku bi not being promoted to general from his position as a 1k commander somehow contradicts characters actually demonstrating an ability to efficiently lead larger numbers than what they're used to.

    i'm not the one throwing out concepts because it doesn't fit with my narrative.
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