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  1. #1

    Gyou'un vs Reiou

    Gyou'un vs Reiou w/Ranbihaku.

    60k vs 60k
    Dakan Plains.

    Personal units included. Manga knowledge.

  2. #2
    Marshmellow Justice Void's Avatar
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    I'll give Reiou and Ranbi the benefit of the doubt

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  3. #3
    Give Gyou'un, Chougaryuu, it will balace the odds.

  4. #4
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    The Wei, of course.

  5. #5
    Dai Don Dedede's Avatar
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    Reiou.
    What's up with giving Gyou Un 60k or 100k and putting him up against established generals when the most we've seen him lead is 10k? I can buy that he'd be above average at a larger scale but I don't think he had to handle armies of that size often whereas we start reaching the scales where people like Reiou and Keisha can really have fun

  6. #6
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dai Don Dedede View Post
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    Reiou.
    What's up with giving Gyou Un 60k or 100k and putting him up against established generals when the most we've seen him lead is 10k? I can buy that he'd be above average at a larger scale but I don't think he had to handle armies of that size often whereas we start reaching the scales where people like Reiou and Keisha can really have fun

    He can swing really hard.







  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dai Don Dedede View Post
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    Reiou.
    What's up with giving Gyou Un 60k or 100k and putting him up against established generals when the most we've seen him lead is 10k? I can buy that he'd be above average at a larger scale but I don't think he had to handle armies of that size often whereas we start reaching the scales where people like Reiou and Keisha can really have fun
    What do you think his preferred and max army size is? I get he's only shown leading 10k but if the 4HK could lead 40k then he should be similar, no? Granted him having 9 other commanders does hurt that idea.

    I didn't want to make this a 10k vs 10k thread because I figured people would have Gyou'un mow Reiou down (whether I agree or not).

  8. #8
    if RSJ bring a 100k army, then it's 10k for each general

    Anyway, assuming the 8 other generals are incompetent fools who are only given 5-8k troops, Gyou'un and CGR are probably taking care about 20-30k of troops at most imo.

    IIRC we don't have any info about what Gyou'un did before meeting RSJ, unlike 4 HK which are known to be an independent general from other state.
    Last edited by gn_x00; 01-12-2019 at 11:37 AM.

  9. #9
    Pretty Flacko Jr. bootleg boy's Avatar
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    rei ou

    not that gyou'un can't lead 60k as well as he does 10k

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  10. #10
    Reiou wins

    Ranbihaku dies though

  11. #11
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    rei ou

    not that gyou'un can't lead 60k as well as he does 10k
    Considering how he was commanding the battle on a pretty micro scale, sending small detachments to strike the HSU where it will hurt the most (against Ten), it actually does. How is he supposed to micro-manage a 60k army? His orders wouldn't even get to the far end of the battle by the time they needed to be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot View Post
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    Reiou wins

    Ranbihaku dies though
    Nah, that depends entirely on how the fight goes. If he survived a clash with Ouki, he sure as hell can survive one with Gyou'un.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Considering how he was commanding the battle on a pretty micro scale, sending small detachments to strike the HSU where it will hurt the most (against Ten), it actually does. How is he supposed to micro-manage a 60k army? His orders wouldn't even get to the far end of the battle by the time they needed to be done.

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    Nah, that depends entirely on how the fight goes. If he survived a clash with Ouki, he sure as hell can survive one with Gyou'un.
    The same way all generals do, including Reiou: through unit commanders, messengers, signals and stuff lol

  13. #13
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot View Post
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    The same way all generals do, including Reiou: through unit commanders, messengers, signals and stuff lol
    Because we've seen another general micro-manage like Gyou'un? And on a 50k+ scale?

  14. #14
    Pretty Flacko Jr. bootleg boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Considering how he was commanding the battle on a pretty micro scale, sending small detachments to strike the HSU where it will hurt the most (against Ten), it actually does. How is he supposed to micro-manage a 60k army? His orders wouldn't even get to the far end of the battle by the time they needed to be done.
    i've said this before but it's incredibly weird to assume that a character can only fight in the one very specific way we've seen them to do battle simply because that's all we've had the opportunity to see

    using this same awkward logic might as well argue rei ou is limited to flanking tactics, and manipulating 20k considering that's all we've seen him do

    just because we've seen him micro-managing doesn't mean that's all he can do. same as how the few tactics we've seen rei ou use isn't all he's capable of. since you seem to already recognize this for one party you should have no problem understanding why it's inane to limit gyou'un like this.

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Considering how he was commanding the battle on a pretty micro scale, sending small detachments to strike the HSU where it will hurt the most (against Ten), it actually does. How is he supposed to micro-manage a 60k army? His orders wouldn't even get to the far end of the battle by the time they needed to be done.
    I mean...Duke was at a chessboard sending pieces here and there when leading a 100k army. Not saying Gyou'un is even close to Duke but he can surely lead 30-40k. Kisui led 30k and is nowhere near as experienced.

    Everything Gyou'un did on the micro scale can likely be done with bigger numbers, no? Just instead of sending 1-5k troops to a location, he can send 10k etc.

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    Nah, that depends entirely on how the fight goes. If he survived a clash with Ouki, he sure as hell can survive one with Gyou'un.
    By the looks of it dealing with Ranbihaku results in your back being turned to Reiou so it is a danger no doubt.

  16. #16
    at least it makes an experience difference.

  17. #17
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg boy View Post
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    i've said this before but it's incredibly weird to assume that a character can only fight in the one very specific way we've seen them to do battle simply because that's all we've had the opportunity to see

    using this same awkward logic might as well argue rei ou is limited to flanking tactics, and manipulating 20k considering that's all we've seen him do

    just because we've seen him micro-managing doesn't mean that's all he can do. same as how the few tactics we've seen rei ou use isn't all he's capable of. since you seem to already recognize this for one party you should have no problem understanding why it's inane to limit gyou'un like this.
    No, it's not weird in the least.

    One is a 7FD, their top strategist except maybe Gokei, and a mentor to GHM. The other is a vassal who we've seen command 10k, and given he was a member of 10 vassals, most likely never (and I'm being generous) commanded anything over 30k.

    So in really, it's exceedingly simple to understand why Reiou gets the benefit of the doubt over commanding large scale battles, while Gyou'un doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I mean...Duke was at a chessboard sending pieces here and there when leading a 100k army. Not saying Gyou'un is even close to Duke but he can surely lead 30-40k. Kisui led 30k and is nowhere near as experienced.

    Everything Gyou'un did on the micro scale can likely be done with bigger numbers, no? Just instead of sending 1-5k troops to a location, he can send 10k etc.
    It's really not the same. There's a reason why people have to work up the ladder, you can't just slap a 5x factor onto your strategy and it works out. By the very definition of the word, it's no longer micro-management if you move bodies of several thousands instead of several dozens, or perhaps hundreds men.

    While 200 strong men hitting a weak link in a 500 man formation could break it, you can't expect the same result from sending 2k into 5k in the exact same manner. First of all, the battle would take longer and the enemy would have more time to react; a larger unit can't move that fast nor can they stay hidden for that long; a 5k unit has a commander and likely several lesser (1k, 100, etc.) commanders that can react; and various other reasons that differentiate between micro, small, medium and large scale battles.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    No, it's not weird in the least.

    One is a 7FD, their top strategist except maybe Gokei, and a mentor to GHM. The other is a vassal who we've seen command 10k, and given he was a member of 10 vassals, most likely never (and I'm being generous) commanded anything over 30k.

    So in really, it's exceedingly simple to understand why Reiou gets the benefit of the doubt over commanding large scale battles, while Gyou'un doesn't.

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    It's really not the same. There's a reason why people have to work up the ladder, you can't just slap a 5x factor onto your strategy and it works out. By the very definition of the word, it's no longer micro-management if you move bodies of several thousands instead of several dozens, or perhaps hundreds men.

    While 200 strong men hitting a weak link in a 500 man formation could break it, you can't expect the same result from sending 2k into 5k in the exact same manner. First of all, the battle would take longer and the enemy would have more time to react; a larger unit can't move that fast nor can they stay hidden for that long; a 5k unit has a commander and likely several lesser (1k, 100, etc.) commanders that can react; and various other reasons that differentiate between micro, small, medium and large scale battles.
    sure, i do agree but I don't think Gyou'un's peak army size is 10k, I'm sure it's much more. If it was 100k, then I think Gyou'un has it to prove but 50-60k isn't reaching so far. Even if he had to compete with 9 other generals, I'm sure he worked with them to combine their armies at times with him probably being #1.

  19. #19
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    sure, i do agree but I don't think Gyou'un's peak army size is 10k, I'm sure it's much more. If it was 100k, then I think Gyou'un has it to prove but 50-60k isn't reaching so far. Even if he had to compete with 9 other generals, I'm sure he worked with them to combine their armies at times with him probably being #1.
    If you remember back at Koku You, Kanki had 58k in total. In Chiyoyou, Tou had a total of 54k. The 50-60k range is already GG territory, and if we're not given a good enough reason, there's no need to assume someone can handle it. What's a good enough reason? Well, Reiou being the best (or #2) strategist of the 7FD and a mentor to GHM is an obvious one; Genpou having the same int, being a tutor to many great figures and the Chief of Military is another; and other similar examples.

    Gyou'un on the other hand is 1 of 10 vassals, currently leads 10k men and isn't even the brain of his wing, it's CGR. For a start, RSJ was obviously the CiC and brain of every battle they fought. Then, even if Gyou'un was the most well rounded, it makes no sense for him to command more men than CGR, the actual brain of RSJ's vassals. Finally, considering Gyou'un was the symbol of might and the man to mow down front lines, it makes even less sense for him to dictate the battle while CGR, the brain, is sitting in front of a desk.

  20. #20
    Pretty Flacko Jr. bootleg boy's Avatar
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    a general by definition in kingdom is a commander who can lead tens of thousands

    heki lead 40k on his first campaign as a general

    rsj didn’t need to divide his generals completely evenly

    gyou’un isn’t the brain, but ri boku had just said he was the leader of the wing a few chapters back

    these arguments are ridiculously disingenuous

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