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  1. #1221
    Banned pizzadust's Avatar
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    Jun 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratchet View Post
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    I feel like you're overstating the restrictiveness and "punishment" aspect of this. It isn't a punishment. It's standard procedure in a great deal many places. Pay less attention to the "forced" aspect because all that means in this context is that Ultra must give it the okay before it can run. That doesn't mean only setups in Ultra's image will be ran. It means that once it has reached a level Ultra deems satisfactory, then the setup can be ran. I'm pretty certain Ultra isn't going to force ideas to change because he doesn't like them unless after attempting to make it work extensively they just can't do it. And it was originally going to be this way anyway. It just means the next time Star hosts, she'll have to have Ultra give it the okay before it gets ran.

    You say "well this setup didn't have that", but it was supposed to. Originally, that was the plan. Star circumvented that, and frankly Ultra could have said it hasn't been okayed so the game can't run until then, but instead he let it play out. I think he's actually been incredibly fair to Star here and I don't feel like helping Star further, if only to advise her on some parts of hosting like what's expected and how to make some tough calls and so on during the game is at all unreasonable. I think it'll help Star to do even better next time, and really, isn't that the point?
    For the bolded it's a matter of context because if this were a standard procedure here, and if it wasn't applied with the given reason that this game was flawed so star must now be forced to take Ultra's advice, I wouldn't be characterizing it as a punishment, or at the least, a restriction brought about from some sort of mistake. And I think if the forced aspect really isn't important than there's all the more reason to not make this a forced thing. The thing is this though, the "forced," part of what he's saying is the only thing I take issue with, not the general idea of him coaching her next game, or even her not hosting without his consent. The problem lies with this being something formally enforced, where it was not before. Originally it wasn't going to be like this, as far as I know, there was never any requirement that she would need his okay or even his advice, just the suggestion. Even looking at it implicitly, as well as by the actual result, there was no force involved, and while she didn't run the final setup by him, she did heavily take his advice in creating this setup. Maybe it's fair if he's displeased with not seeing the final setup first, but we can't say that he was forcing her to run the idea by him first, as it's just not what happened, and maybe i'm not as familiar with this section as I could be, but i can't really think of an example where Ultra has forced someone to get his okay, or forcibly stopped a setup from happening here, barring finalbeta(and it makes sense that he would be an outlier).What I'm getting at is that this is a forum where it isn't a standard procedure, but a special one, one that didn't even apply to a less experienced stardust, but now does because of the "flaws" of this game(this is the justification he gives, and why it takes the form of a punishment).

    I think you're right in a lot of ways, as in, it's a good idea if she takes the advice of someone experienced like Ultra for her next game. If I'm being as specific as I can my problem is this, the force aspect is important, maybe not in results(or perhaps so, indirectly, things tend to work better with consent), but in a much more basic way it's unfair and makes a special case of stardust without justification. Forcing her to run her setup by him isn't based in any formal rule or right that Ultra has as a mod, nor in the generally accepted precedent of the forum here. So while it might not be bad in and of itself, the more you take it in context the more unjustified it seems.

    Also, a note about the last setup, star didn't circumvent Ultra forcing her to show the setup. He never said she had to, never implied she had to, just that he wanted her to. In fact, i'm sure something as simple as a, "you have to or you can't host," would have gotten her to, even without the actual intention to stop her from hosting. There was never any force involved in that. Maybe it seems like I'm focusing on the force aspect too much, but that's because I wouldn't even have a problem if that part were taken out, if instead it was, "I highly suggest you run your game by me next time." I focus on it because it's the problem here. I would even go as far as to say that i think she should seek the advice of ultra or someone with a similar level of experience for her next game(I even suggested it to her for this game), but where does the right to demand this come from when the demand isn't made of anyone but Finalbeta, the guy we barely allow to exist in this section, and it wasn't made of her before this game. Ultra's using this game itself as his justification for forcing her, and I think that's a unfair. Maybe there were some hosting problems here and there but I'm not seeing any glaring objective flaws with the novelty or the balance of the setup. This isn't the right kind of attitude to take to new host imo., and it's just shown here, even in the game Ultra heavily assumed that town didn't need to take things too seriously because it was the setup of a novice. It's this attitude that's the problem, but that's fine by itself, it becomes unjustified when put into the form of a rule.


    Sorry if this is a bit longwinded
    Last edited by pizzadust; 10-18-2018 at 11:42 AM.

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