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  1. #181
    Dai Don Dedede's Avatar
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    Oh didn't see the thing with Arlen. Pretty sure the contract includes everyone who was in the tower at the time including the irregulars and only irregulars that joined later can bypass it (maybe that's why Enryu doesn't simply kill Jahad)

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Dai Don Dedede View Post
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    Oh didn't see the thing with Arlen. Pretty sure the contract includes everyone who was in the tower at the time including the irregulars and only irregulars that joined later can bypass it (maybe that's why Enryu doesn't simply kill Jahad)
    What's weird is if she couldn't suicide how did V end of dying. Why his death seems fishy to me. That and the way it was initially worded.

  3. #183
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    What's weird is if she couldn't suicide how did V end of dying. Why his death seems fishy to me. That and the way it was initially worded.
    It appears I forgot, I only remember reading V killed himself when he saw Arlen waste away because Zahard killed their child. Mind reminding me?

  4. #184
    I just thought it said he went and died. The killed himself was a later statement....I think.

    Wiki does say suicide and he simply didn't form the immortality contract but that in itself seems fishy as that should have happened at Floor 100, when they were still adventuring. Why would you let your girl become immortal but not yourself unless he couldn't like Bloodmadder. Even then that is fishy if he had similar situation as him...unless Bloodmadder's situation has nothing to do with him personally but more due to the nature of the Guardian's trial.

    Killing yourself and leaving your girl in the world alone suspect as well. Idk, I just don't trust that V was this benevolent paragon that Eduan seemingly admired while Gustang thinks he's the worst person ever knowing Jahad killed a baby. Tells me he thinks leaving Arlen to her fate was probably worse as he clearly wants to support her child in spite of Jahad.


    To keep thread on topic....I say just put/keep Mascheny in same tier as Jinsung. More I see of their quick fight tells me we overestimated the gap.
    Last edited by Dayum; 02-01-2019 at 02:45 PM.

  5. #185
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    To keep thread on topic....I say just put/keep Mascheny in same tier as Jinsung. More I see of their quick fight tells me we overestimate the gap.
    Yeah, won't be changing anything until this batch of fights end, we'll have better insight.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Yeah, won't be changing anything until this batch of fights end, we'll have better insight.
    I don't get why we're pretending we don't know what happens from the spoilers. Only reason you could even put Kallavan where he currently is is by acknowledging him beating Jinsung. You can't rate him higher as of the English Translation. Really makes no sense to put him in top tier even taking into account the spoilers. He almost died, while I doubt Rank 36 Princess who survived 10 Minutes with her dad as a Regular would have much trouble with a Jinsung level guy. Feat wise they all look as good as Evankhell while anybody remotely approaching Family head level can potentially nuke portions of entire Floors.


    Lower top tier should be the Ha Twins, Yeon Illarde, small mix of top Slayers&Fug Elders, some other elder children closer in age to Jinsung's Aunt&Mom than himself that we haven't met yet, and maybe some other randoms like Rankers who helped the 10 Warriors climb and Heads of lesser families(like maybe the Blitz). The Ha Twins are probably a hell of a lot weaker than their mom&dad but noticeably above their little boy/nephew. The Fathers of the Workshop are said to have S-level strength as well with presence above even Floor Rulers. There are only 4(5 with Flux) so I expect them to be up there in strength as well with Flux up there with Joochun&Molic.

  7. #187
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    I don't get why we're pretending we don't know what happens from the spoilers. Only reason you could even put Kallavan where he currently is is by acknowledging him beating Jinsung. You can't rate him higher as of the English Translation. Really makes no sense to put him in top tier even taking into account the spoilers. He almost died, while I doubt Rank 36 Princess who survived 10 Minutes with her dad as a Regular would have much trouble with a Jinsung level guy. Feat wise they all look as good as Evankhell while anybody remotely approaching Family head level can potentially nuke portions of entire Floors.


    Lower top tier should be the Ha Twins, Yeon Illarde, small mix of top Slayers&Fug Elders, some other elder children closer in age to Jinsung's Aunt&Mom than himself that we haven't met yet, and maybe some other randoms like Rankers who helped the 10 Warriors climb and Heads of lesser families(like maybe the Blitz). The Ha Twins are probably a hell of a lot weaker than their mom&dad but noticeably above their little boy/nephew. The Fathers of the Workshop are said to have S-level strength as well with presence above even Floor Rulers. There are only 4(5 with Flux) so I expect them to be up there in strength as well with Flux up there with Joochun&Molic.
    Regarding the spoiler, the list hasn't been updated in a while, actually it was last updated when there was a spoiler that said the 4th Squadron Commander was #50, which turned out to be a rumor. Since it hasn't been fixed up until now, I'll keep it that way until the fights ends, because I wouldn't want to spoil anything to people who wait for the actual chapters.

    I do think your proposal makes sense though, so we'll be coming back to this.

  8. #188
    Now that current fights have been completed let us continue.….

    Here's the post I made a few weeks ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Regarding the spoiler, the list hasn't been updated in a while, actually it was last updated when there was a spoiler that said the 4th Squadron Commander was #50, which turned out to be a rumor. Since it hasn't been fixed up until now, I'll keep it that way until the fights ends, because I wouldn't want to spoil anything to people who wait for the actual chapters.

    I do think your proposal makes sense though, so we'll be coming back to this.
    I also think we need to break up these tiers instead of squeezing everyone into High, Mid, and Low brackets. Power differences in the top 100 shouldn't be split between top 50 and bottom 50 because the power differences seem very substantial as you move closer to Rank 1. They’d also be narrower at the very very top.

    SIU uses letters&numbers 1 to 10 to distinguish characters' attributes showing us that Mule Love is a higher level C-Grade Ranker than Quants(C2 vs C5). I don't think we should be that meticulous with it but maybe something like this using letter grades to increase the range.

    God Tier
    Top- Phan
    High- Enryu
    Mid- Enryu/Headon
    Low- Guardians

    SSS
    Urek/Jahad

    SS
    High- Arie/Eduan
    Mid- Adori/Eurasia/Baek/combat centered Family heads(Yurin, Hendo, Blossom, and Ari)
    Low- Other Heads/Baek/Molic

    S
    High- Molic/Mirchea/Flux(?)
    Mid- Flux/Joochun/Ha Twins/Illarde Yeon or rank 20 to ~30, where I assume the latter 4 fall(Flux should be unranked).
    Low- ~25 - ~40 (perhaps people like Baylord, Imort, Workshop Fathers, and Hagipherione)

    AAA
    High- Around 50(perhaps a high as 35 or 40)
    Mid- ~55/60 - ~80 (where strongest of Final Station arc fall)
    Low- ~90/~150/~200/~250

    AA- top ~500/~750
    High- Sharon/Yuri/El/Yolker/Cheon
    Mid- Cheon/Yuri/Yolker/Karaka/Tinker Yolche/Evan
    Low- Evan/Karaka/Tinker Yolche/Dorian/Kay

    A- Sub ~500/~750 High Rankers to ~ top 3% of Rankers.
    High- Karaka/Kay/Dorian ~Yan Sung/High Priest/Drak
    Mid- High Priest/Yan Sung/Pedro/Drak/ *Hell Joe
    Low- Death Karambit/Death Lady/Pedro/Grom/Random 3rd&4th tier servants.


    The names reappearing multiple times are just placeholders acting as benchmarks in between tiers. Bold names are where I personally think that character may more likely fall.

    This is a lot more flexible and accounts for the wide-ranging cast of characters of various strength&skill levels. It would be easy to discuss character by first putting them in their bracket then debating their placement later. Power differences would not be consistent between tiers. Probably obvious but characters are placed in tiers by power level not actual Rank. So Evan would be nowhere near the top of A tier while Karaka would be A-ranked despite not even being a High Ranker.
    The specific placements aren't really important, they were just to give ideas of benchmarks. First task should just be agreeing on broader tiers, how characters fit into sub-brackets for a later discussion. Some explanation of the tiers.
    God- Reserved for those who created, enforce, or supersede rules of the Tower.

    SSS- Undeniable top players in the Tower. Only additions would be Late Game Bamm, V if he were/is alive, and possibly the original Giant if my theory on Baek and Rak being the reincarnated/reawakened OG Natives ones, not mere descendants, is correct. That means the Giant is 5 SS level people fused together.

    SS- Step down from the inarguable top dogs. Family Heads separated because while none are slouches some have combat focused roles while 3-5 are more support. Also telling even bein inactive Ha Yurin and Eurasian are still higher ranked than Gustang. So outside of favorable match-ups and tactics some will more likely lose in straight 1on1 fights with other heads Very High diff vs Extreme. Eduan could drop since Arie challenging Jahad 10 times happened because he is decisively above Eduan and Hoaquin’s flashback implies Arie is still trying to get stronger(though maybe Eduan is too). Hendo placed with them since he is also combat focused and was Eduan’s combo partner. Lower Ranking could be solely due to the curse hindering his influence in the Tower. Could be dropped if he’s mostly just a damage soaker/tank.

    The non-Irregulars have crazy hype. Most telling is how Enne and Baek pushed not only past Heads but Molic too. Leader of Winged Tree title can’t compare to acting Lord of the Tower so his Wave Controller hype should be viewed as legit. If Blossom's Wave Controller skill is a 9.5 I can see Enne being a 9 but with 9s in physical stats due to being a Princess while her mom and Gustang have the lowest physical stats among top tiers. Molic is either the weakest SS or Strongest S-rank fighter.

    S- This bracket would have wider power differences. People here possibly Mid to Low diff fights to the Family Heads, or even close to no-diff but undeniably more powerful than the next step down. Molic and maybe Mirchea would be the top of this bracket. I do expect Mirchea to be noticeably below all the Heads. Flux could be up there with them. Ha Twins and Joochun are examples of stronger Elder Generation 10 Family Children and a step down from Molic wherever he falls. Illarde is acting Head and actual progenitor for Yeon Family. Expect Twins are tied for Rank 20, Joochun is 21, and Illarde 22~25. Fathers of Workshop are said to have S-level strength with influence and prestige surpassing Floor Rulers. Molic may have his own #2.

    The Strongest Slayers, unknown/missing Princesses, strongest Fug Elders, Rankers missing from Rankings, Red Leader, 1st squadron Commander, then perhaps heads of lesser families like the Blitz and Kay's(not specifically these Families per se) could be the bottom of S-tier.

    AAA- Arie Hagipherione may be dividing line between Top tiers and the highest High tiers depending how close in level she is to say the Ha Twins vs Kallavan/Evankhell/Jinsung. She is Rank 36 despite being relatively young having been a Regular during Urek’s rise. Completing her father’s challenge means she was very strong before she finished her climb. We don’t know how hard he went but assuming he wasn’t fooling around I’d say she is far above Jinsung level people now, if not back then too since Kallavan and Jinsung’s fight didn’t even last 10 minutes and both could have died. Means they may not be able to pass his test as High Rankers. Overall AAA is for extremely strong people who are all still fodder to all S-Tiers.

    Mid AAA seems good for the strongest in the Final Station arc regardless of where Arie Jahad falls. I don’t think they are a match for her and thus others hovering Rank 35 to ~45. Personally, think this group falls more towards the 55-75 rank range and there are larger power gaps passing 50 approaching the top 30. Their feats are kind of underwhelming in comparison to the hype the GW received. Affecting entire or multiple floors just getting prepared to fight. Lesser Top Tiers should be able to match their parents’ and superiors’ warm-ups/casual attacks when they go all out. Maschenny automatically drops to the bracket beneath Jinsung.

    Lower AAA should could end around ~200 give or take. I imagine people who fit here are the 100+ unknown Floor Rulers, High Ranker Princesses without Maschenny’s pedigree or Yuri's potential, and relatively high-ranking personnel of various groups like the 10 Families, Fug, Winged Tree, RED, and Jahad’s other 2 Armies. I don’t think there will be huge strength differences between the Rulers beyond a few stand outs.

    Thing with El, Sharon, and Yolker is that they didn’t look that bad against Evankhell despite probably hovering around Rank 300, 200 at the most. Neither did Thinker Yolche despite only being a Ranker. So the power differences may not actually be that large sub 100/150 to ~200/~300. Think they may all just deserve top of AA as they couldn't truly help out Kallavan or participate in a fight between Elliot and Evankhell and it probably doesn't make sense to put people into the same Tier.

    AA is reserved for those with solid High Ranker abilities. Specifically people like the Vice Commanders and on the lower end of the spectrum Test Directors. Having it possibly pushing closer to 750 if people like Cheon&Yuri are only around 400 yet are clearly superior to Yu San Hung and Evan who are supposed to be near 500 in strength. Think we also forget there aren’t exactly 100k Rankers so top 1% can easily be more than 1000 people.

    A is for those weaker High Rankers, Advanced Rankers, and Rankers strong enough to match or at least hold their ground against your average High Ranker. Yu Han Sung is the wild card here as his ranking is supposed to be closer to 1000 yet SIU said if he didn’t mess around it would be closer to Yuri’s. Yet his feats clearly don’t compare to Yuri, Cheon, and I’d say even Evan and Karaka. Right now Upper A sounds better than Lower AA unless he has more going for him. We’d have to see if he can easily take care of people like Death Lady/Karambit to change my mind. Dorian only had issues with Karambit and YSH himself because White destroyed his Frog. So he’s like Evan without his Ring at the moment. At full strength he blew away White. The High Priest was breathing hard vs. Yansung so he automatically goes 1 tier down from him.

    Asterisk next to Hell Joe because his power is restricted to the Floor of Death. I’d put an * next to the 3 Grands too since we didn’t get an accurate representation of their strength either only seeing them on that F.o.D. where no Ranker can fight properly. Losing their eyes may have weakened them too. De Jah and De Sah were co-rulers so they should be top 500 at the very least. I think Garam is definitely AAA wherever she falls. Older than Adori, scares Evan, and I forgot but Hockney said she is perhaps the strongest person he has ever met. This was after meeting Yuri, Karaka, Evan, and whoever he met during his climb. SIU didn’t have to give him that line.


    I don’t think B and C ranks will need to be split up the same way A&S are split. I see technique, inventories, tactics, and skill being equally important factors as raw power in determining Tiers for B&C. Weaker you go the harder it is to distinguish who is stronger since most battles probably won’t come down power levels. Very easy to see who has the better/crazier techniques, items, stronger bodies, and bigger nukes among High Rankers. Power differences between the top of B and the bottom of C is likely smaller than A and AAA. I could see Mule Love(C2) being a C+, Quants(C5) a C, and Charlie(let's just say C8 for the sake of discussion) as a C-. No need to broaden this with sub categories.
    Last edited by Dayum; 01-29-2019 at 02:59 PM.

  9. #189
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Yeah, we can sort out both Tier lists now. I'm in a really busy patch at the moment, so I may not be very fast with my answers, but I will be paying attention to this.

    Also like the idea of re-arranging the tiers altogether, the first ones were more of a placeholder anyway. Now that we've got a better picture of the in-verse standings, we can reshape them.

  10. #190
    @hbcaptain;

    - - - Updated - - -

    also i’m in. quite busy today and tomorrow but will drop my opinion whenever i can


  11. #191
    Kallavan above Maschenny?


  12. #192
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usopp View Post
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    Kallavan above Maschenny?
    Won't be correcting the current list right now, since we'll be going with Dayum's proposal. Hopefully I can get to this in a few hours.

  13. #193
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Really on a leash here because of my exams, I should be able to get to this after tomorrow. I think the tiers and how they're defined are fine, might have to discuss a bit more about A going into S, but we'll get to that.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Really on a leash here because of my exams, I should be able to get to this after tomorrow. I think the tiers and how they're defined are fine, might have to discuss a bit more about A going into S, but we'll get to that.
    Live your life bro. Priorities.

    I guess. Tried to keep S to people who can at least survive in the presence of a GW. There is a reason Jinsung screamed at Maschenny about monsters. He knows she is in over her head wanting to even see them fight let alone participate. Hagipherione is the lowest Ranked person we know can somewhat survive an encounter with one. So top ~40 sounds good. 100% Evankhell is 60 so the 50% Evankhell we saw may be representative of a true lower 100. Was also subtlety keeping in mind SIU's grades.

    He still says YHS's card is still accurate and canon and he's considered a lower A rank overall, 8A to be precise with 8S potential. That means someone in the top 500 can still be a Lower A. Love and Quants's Ranks are C2 vs C5 but if you look at how Love's stats are distributed he outclasses Quants in all but 2 categories by wide margins showing 3 sub-ranks is a big deal and have wide spreads in ability. YHS distribution is like half lower As and rest is mix of B, C, D, and even one E in for his body...so he's very much a glass canon summoner/mage among High Rankers; tho he does have 2 10S scores for Wands&Inventories. Your average top 500 probably has more evenly distributed stats(Higher Bs and Lower As, no S, few Cs). Love actually has plenty of lower B scores, followed by C, and a few D scores...mostly in non-combat related stats. Seems he'd be a Lower B if he raised those Ds by becoming a better team player.

    Overall Score does not seem to be a simple average of scores since YHS abysmal physical stats don't drag him down much. If anything its the Mode of letter scores. If YHS didn't have S-rank items(Probably can't use them on lower Floors like 44) he'd be an even lower A-class. He was also not actually said to have top 500 strength just that he'd have a Ranking near there if he didn't mess around. IE he's possibly ranked closer to his strength level but he had opportunities to increase his influence and reputation he skipped out on by staying as a test admin.

    Point in all of this is that stat distribution can be wide between people with seemingly similar Rankings so obviously wider differences in 'Overall Score' can actually show themselves as huge differences in particular stats. I'm assuming you want to talk about why Kallavan-tier people would only be Mid AAA. Basically I think their stats would be a mix of Mid and Upper A scores with even some Bs. In order to be an S-class you have to have multiple S-scores or higher S scores to make up for particular lower scores. Upper AAA would be borderline and nothing about Kallavan seems borderline top tier since the much stronger Hagipherione(rank 36) may not even count.

    Kallavan probably has a Low to Mid S score solely in Body, with lower As in Shinsoo Materialization and reinforcement. Things like Control&Manipulation could be as low as B. Evankhell mostly Mid As in Shinsoo related categories with Low As, even higher Bs, on the physical side since even someone like Sharon gave her minor issues with her speed&technique. Sharon should be an example of someone with Low A weapons stats given her likely ranking. Sharon also destroyed her needle meaning it couldn't have been an S-rank item. Maschenny probably the most evenly spread of this group leaning on the physical/weapon side but nothing over A6. Upper AAA would have multiple A5+ scores with the occasional S and more rarely Bs if they're uneven like YHS.

    True S Ranks have S scores across the board. Examples would be Urek&Jahad having nothing but S3 to 1 scores in all combat stats. Eurasia S1 to S3 in everything Shinsoo related. Arie S4 to 1 in physical combat scores. S8 to 5 in everything else. Ha Yurin S2 in Body higher S in reinforcement, Eduan S5-2 across the board. Molic S8-4 across the board. Adori S6-3 across the board. Enne S1-3 in Shinsoo related scores, S5 to 8 in physical. Baek S1-3 in Shinsoo, no more than S7 in physical. Illarde S6 at most in Shinsoo related scores. Ha Twins S6 at most in physical combat scores. Someone like Hagi may have S10-8 in physical stats at the very most. A scores in others. Same is true of other bottom tier S-classes. Mix of S10-S8 scores with noticeable drops in the other stats where they don't specialize. God Tiers don't fit onto the scale.

    These grades s are just examples for comparisons sake


    TL: DR

    If you disagree with Kallavan Tier people being only Mid AAA I put them there because I think Jinsung is closer in strength to people near 60 than his Mom&Aunt(assume rank 20, 25 at most). Kallavan is closer to 100% Evankhell than Illarde(around 20). 100% Evankhell is no stronger than someone around 50. Big gap for top AAA guys to fit. All FS arc High Rankers get bodied by Hagipherionne.
    Last edited by Dayum; 02-06-2019 at 01:14 AM.

  15. #195
    We doing this?

    Hardest placement probably Yuri, Karaka, and the Vice Commanders.
    Last edited by Dayum; 02-06-2019 at 01:39 PM.

  16. #196
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    We doing this?

    Hardest placement probably Yuri, Karaka, and the Vice Commanders.
    Absolutely. My last exam is tomorrow so I'll have more time. My apologies for the wait.

  17. #197
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    @Dayum;
    I've updated the OP with the new layout and the first 10 ranks, let's work it out from there.

  18. #198
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Updated the rest of the list, did some tweaks, but nothing major. We can discuss things from here.

  19. #199
    why'd you put Asensio above Maschenny?


    The Three Bros.

  20. #200
    선생님 Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
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    why'd you put Asensio above Maschenny?
    Copy-pasted to the wrong place, but it's fixed now.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Void; @Usopp; @Aether; @Dai Don Dedede;
    Put up a new tier list in the OP, feel free to check it out. Did it mostly to expand the top, since it looks like the top 1000 will be quite a massive gap.

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