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  1. #61
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    he actually has somewhat of a point there. the stars aligned to help duke win that battle. wasn't really an advantage the duke could've made up for on his own by reacting differently to the turn of events if ou ki didn't make his presence known.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    zhao had a long history of fighting with yan, but that doesn't mean the z3 themselves were dedicated to a lot of wars against them. especially since chou sa's and rsj's careers were fairly short lived.

    and zhao did have capable generals outside of the z3.
    And those capable generals surely were unable to beat Gekishin...this is why I think there's a contradiction. If Renpa had fought Gekishin plenty of times, it means he couldn't defeat him. If Renpa didn't fight him plenty of times, it means he won't have the same depth of rivalry as he did with the Qin 6 which would explain why the respect level isn't the same.

    feel gaku jou's hype is being underestimated here. gaku jou doesn't have stats to be compared to geki shin. he was zhao's #2 great general, and was their #1 for a period after ren pa was exiled(assuming he was still active). was also rumored to be superior to ren pa before his defeat to him. ren pa even said that gaku jou's warfare was enough to give him the chills.
    Nah Gakujoe was never #1. A year after Dakan Plains, Ten said Zhao lacked a single General capable of leading a huge army which would imply he lost his rank.

    if gaku jou didn't lose to ren pa and then retire into obscurity he'd probably be considered as capable as geki shin if not moreso based on his hype alone.
    How is his hype even comparable, really? It isn't lol. Gekishin's hype has significantly much more substance than Gakujoe who was only 'secretly rumored'.


    they both suffered crushing defeats against their only opponents in the series. discovering ri boku's plan just looks better than the way gaku jou was defeated, but he didn't really perform any better. just discovering ri boku's plan wasn't enough for him to mount a counter attack, and the battle was pretty one-sided.

    even geki shin's cavalry speed that allowed him to catch ri boku with his pants down seemed more convenient than a calculated advantage given how spontaneous his plan to attack ri boku's hq was.
    Gakujoe lost a war with the biggest numerical advantage we've seen in the series. Gekishin lost in an even-scale war against a prepped-up Riboku, Houken, Keisha and co. Come on now...

    honestly speaking, his death didn't have nearly as much impact as ou ki's. it's not that i think geki shin wasn't a legendary figure, just think there's a bigger gap between the q6 and everybody else than most people seem to believe. feel a general can have a decorated name without being able to keep with the q6/z3.

    the q6/z3 are meant to be exceptions among exceptions. it'd honestly be reasonable if every state didn't have someone on their level. i mean, at this point yan's #1 appears to be ordo. but you could argue geki shin was defeated to make room for some other more capable dark horse that we just don't know of yet; similar to go kei's death, ren pa's exile, etc.
    Ouki's death was #1 of course - he was the most famous General in China. But Gekishin's death had a huge impact as stated by Ordo (and agreed by GHM iirc), the Qi king and Shouheikun.

    I do agree that the 3/6 are exceptions to the GG rule and not the standard, I just think Gekishin is also exceptional. At the very least, I fail to see how he's below the Fire Dragons.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    If Renpa didn't fight him plenty of times, it means he won't have the same depth of rivalry as he did with the Qin 6 which would explain why the respect level isn't the same.
    this was actually my point... sorta. we're kinda making the same point but coming to opposite conclusions here. my argument was that their lack of interaction despite ren pa's definite familiarity with geki shin shows that he just wasn't as impressed with him as he was with the q6. you’re arguing that their history together not having as much depth explains the lack of respect ren pa had for him, but I’m saying they didn’t have a similar z3vq6 relationship in the first place because geki shin was never a huge concern to ren pa even though ren pa was completely aware of him and his abilities. if ren pa saw geki shin as a threat he would’ve taken action against him himself more often

    How is his hype even comparable, really? It isn't lol. Gekishin's hype has significantly much more substance than Gakujoe who was only 'secretly rumored'.
    he wasn't 'secretly rumored', he was 'rumored to have secretly surpassed ren pa'. subtle difference but i'm sure it addresses your argument here. there wasn’t much substance to either of the rumors surrounding their abilities. only difference is we actually got to see geki shin perform a little. geki shin didn’t even push ri boku that much in that battle. which ties into the following point...

    Gakujoe lost a war with the biggest numerical advantage we've seen in the series. Gekishin lost in an even-scale war against a prepped-up Riboku, Houken, Keisha and co. Come on now...
    ri boku wasn't prepped, and neither kei sha or hou ken were fighting as ri boku's equal. i mean, by that same token might as well reference the influence of ren pa’s heavenly kings, but i digress

    geki shin was losing purely to a strategy employed by ri boku during the battle. one he couldn’t have used preparation to enact because it depended on the positioning of geki shin’s hq. kei sha’s role in that war was only to act out ri boku’s orders.

    like i said in the last post, geki shin’s defeat looks better because of the variety of factors present, but in all reality he was one-sidedly overwhelmed by purely ri boku’s strategy. only outlier you could argue is hou ken, but even that’s a stretch. the battle was won ultimately because he killed geki shin, but he wasn’t needed and he’s really not worth any more than someone like ran bi haku in a battle. guys just a glorified duelist.

    fact is, geki shin couldn’t compete with Ri Boku throughout the entire battle and finally discovering his location by itself wasn’t enough to turn the tides of the battle. I really don’t feel a feat that minuscule after a string of losses is a demonstration of anything near z3 level abilities
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    this was actually my point... sorta. we're kinda making the same point but coming to opposite conclusions here. my argument was that their lack of interaction despite ren pa's definite familiarity with geki shin shows that he just wasn't as impressed with him as he was with the q6. you’re arguing that their history together not having as much depth explains the lack of respect ren pa had for him, but I’m saying they didn’t have a similar z3vq6 relationship in the first place because geki shin was never a huge concern to ren pa even though ren pa was completely aware of him and his abilities. if ren pa saw geki shin as a threat he would’ve taken action against him himself more often
    The far more likely reason is that the attitude reflects the states attitudes. Qin had 6 exceptional Great Generals who were able to freely commit to any war they wish with the genuine, aggressive intent of annexing the entire state of Zhao. Is it any wonder that Renpa was far busier with them than he was with Yan who, it seems, never had any such intention and had only 1 famous Great General that was a well known mercenary? There's only so many places Renpa can be at once. That's why I don't think it's really fair to take Renpa's lack of interest in Gekishin as a sign that the latter was barely even Gakujoe level, much less the Fire Dragons or Q6.
    he wasn't 'secretly rumored', he was 'rumored to have secretly surpassed ren pa'. subtle difference but i'm sure it addresses your argument here. there wasn’t much substance to either of the rumors surrounding their abilities. only difference is we actually got to see geki shin perform a little. geki shin didn’t even push ri boku that much in that battle. which ties into the following point...
    Gekishin's substance comes from his status as #1 of a state for 40 years, being called a 'monster' by Seitaku, being able to reproduce Gakuki's method of warfare (look at what Akou has done with Ousen's defense,and multiply it for Gekishin), being considered a legend throughout all of China, held enough prestige to play a part in creating an entire Coalition, an impressive bunch of stats and hyped to be GH level.

    Gakujoe's substance comes from him being Zhao's #2 for a short period of time and had a rumour that he was #1 which was debunked the moment he lost a war despite having 5x the numerical advantage.

    They really don't compare at all. Even if you don't take Gekishin's GH hype as absolute gospel (which I don't because I put him below Renpa + RSJ), they don't compare.


    ri boku wasn't prepped, and neither kei sha or hou ken were fighting as ri boku's equal. i mean, by that same token might as well reference the influence of ren pa’s heavenly kings, but i digress
    What? Of course Riboku was prepped. He even discussed a Yan invasion a year (or two?) before it happened in the meeting with Ryofui. This is Riboku we are talking about, who is the absolute prep god. He targeted Gekishin long before the latter physically stepped onto a battlefield.
    geki shin was losing purely to a strategy employed by ri boku during the battle. one he couldn’t have used preparation to enact because it depended on the positioning of geki shin’s hq. kei sha’s role in that war was only to act out ri boku’s orders.
    Gekishin also rumbled Riboku's strategy.
    like i said in the last post, geki shin’s defeat looks better because of the variety of factors present, but in all reality he was one-sidedly overwhelmed by purely ri boku’s strategy. only outlier you could argue is hou ken, but even that’s a stretch. the battle was won ultimately because he killed geki shin, but he wasn’t needed and he’s really not worth any more than someone like ran bi haku in a battle. guys just a glorified duelist.

    fact is, geki shin couldn’t compete with Ri Boku throughout the entire battle and finally discovering his location by itself wasn’t enough to turn the tides of the battle. I really don’t feel a feat that minuscule after a string of losses is a demonstration of anything near z3 level abilities
    Why is naming Houken a mere stretch? He did the kill lol. If it wasn't for him it would have been 15k of Gekishin's strongest unit vs Riboku's 8k.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    he actually has somewhat of a point there. the stars aligned to help duke win that battle. wasn't really an advantage the duke could've made up for on his own by reacting differently to the turn of events if ou ki didn't make his presence known.
    This is Duke, the one who defeated Riboku. Who the fuck is Gokei.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    This is Duke, the one who defeated Riboku. Who the fuck is Gokei.
    -Duke ends up dead, killed by Riboku's puppet, his elites are all wiped out by Riboku army.

    -Riboku has no scratch and barely looses any men.

    "Duke defeated Riboku"

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    -Duke ends up dead, killed by Riboku's puppet, his elites are all wipe out by Riboku army.

    -Riboku has no scratch and barely looses any men.

    "Duke defeated Riboku"
    Duke was going to kill Riboku if not for Houken Plotsama. Gokei was giving Duke a bit troubles, but never was Duke his life in direct danger.
    Last edited by Duke; 06-11-2018 at 07:09 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    -Duke ends up dead, killed by Riboku's puppet, his elites are all wiped out by Riboku army.

    -Riboku has no scratch and barely looses any men.

    "Duke defeated Riboku"
    dukes elites weren't wiped out

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Duke was going to kill Riboku if not for Houken Plotsama. Gokei was giving Duke a bit troubles, but never was Duke his life in direct danger.
    Sure, but Riboku was smart enough to keep Houken close as a bodyguard and Duke rushed at Riboku's HQ without considering it.

    Besides, Riboku has the fastest horses in China, it's still possible he would escape to the rear of his army and regroup, while Duke would have to break though Zhao units again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juan View Post
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    dukes elites weren't wiped out
    I mean the ones that were with him in Riboku's HQ.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    The far more likely reason is that the attitude reflects the states attitudes. Qin had 6 exceptional Great Generals who were able to freely commit to any war they wish with the genuine, aggressive intent of annexing the entire state of Zhao. Is it any wonder that Renpa was far busier with them than he was with Yan who, it seems, never had any such intention and had only 1 famous Great General that was a well known mercenary? There's only so many places Renpa can be at once. That's why I don't think it's really fair to take Renpa's lack of interest in Gekishin as a sign that the latter was barely even Gakujoe level, much less the Fire Dragons or Q6.
    but he still never took interest in geki shin even in the years following the q6's systematic collapse. ou sen and kan ki were complete ghosts to ren pa, but he took interest in them because he was told their abilities rivaled the q6. yet ren pa never took interest in geki shin.

    which was the main point of this whole argument. the fact that ren pa was bored without the q6 despite geki shin still being of the living. now it's come full circle.

    we've crossed out the argument that ren pa was simply unfamiliar with him and his abilities.

    also addressed the point about geki shin having shallow principles. that was the reason why he avoided a duel with gai mou, not why they didn't find him a worthy foe to war with. which is completely different judging from ren pa's conversation with mou gou.


    Gekishin's substance comes from his status as #1 of a state for 40 years, being called a 'monster' by Seitaku, being able to reproduce Gakuki's method of warfare (look at what Akou has done with Ousen's defense,and multiply it for Gekishin), being considered a legend throughout all of China, held enough prestige to play a part in creating an entire Coalition, an impressive bunch of stats and hyped to be GH level.

    Gakujoe's substance comes from him being Zhao's #2 for a short period of time and had a rumour that he was #1 which was debunked the moment he lost a war despite having 5x the numerical advantage.

    They really don't compare at all. Even if you don't take Gekishin's GH hype as absolute gospel (which I don't because I put him below Renpa + RSJ), they don't compare.
    there's a good number of subs in china with comparable or superior stats to geki shin, and a kou being able to emulate a number of a great generals tactics himself should honestly serve to humble the geki shin praise - unless you think a gaku ki imitation is just that much more impressive than an ou sen imitation.

    also, there's not really a huge difference between being a state's #2 and #1, especially when the only person keeping gaku jou from being zhao's #1 was ren pa of all people. i mean, it's not like geki shin's position would've been any better if he was still a general of zhao himself.

    which is why i've been saying geki shin's hype is lacking context and is being over-inflated as a result.

    it all goes to show that he's incredibly impressive, but not exactly as high as he's being held. go kei was capable enough to arguably defeat duke hyou, a general who could've been a member of qin's 6 if he wanted to. despite what chiyoyou led most to believe, the 7fd's in general really aren't all a lot less than the q6 or z3. go kei, at the very least, could've stood shoulder to shoulder with them.

    if you're comparing geki shin to generals like e.shi then i wouldn't argue with you, but he should be far from competing with the likes of go kei, kyou, ou ki, etc. and anyone else that could appropriately satisfy ren pa.

    What? Of course Riboku was prepped. He even discussed a Yan invasion a year (or two?) before it happened in the meeting with Ryofui. This is Riboku we are talking about, who is the absolute prep god. He targeted Gekishin long before the latter physically stepped onto a battlefield.
    ri boku definitely planned to take him down, but i wouldn't equate that to battle prep and an advantage brought about thereof. it'd be like arguing ri boku is currently battling a prepped ou sen.

    Why is naming Houken a mere stretch? He did the kill lol. If it wasn't for him it would have been 15k of Gekishin's strongest unit vs Riboku's 8k.
    because the kill could've been done otherwise. geki shin intended to meet ri boku pretty quickly. less than a 15k vs 8k battle, it would've turned into geki shin vs ri boku. geki's 90 str vs r.boku's 91. even if it did result in a battle, ri boku has the superior stats overall by a substantial margin.

    everything was still to his advantage despite geki shin discovering his hq. that's why naming hou ken is a stretch. ri boku would've had a clean victory regardless of whether or not he was present.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    but he still never took interest in geki shin even in the years following the q6's systematic collapse. ou sen and kan ki were complete ghosts to ren pa, but he took interest in them because he was told their abilities rivaled the q6. yet ren pa never took interest in geki shin.

    which was the main point of this whole argument. the fact that ren pa was bored without the q6 despite geki shin still being of the living. now it's come full circle.

    we've crossed out the argument that ren pa was simply unfamiliar with him and his abilities.

    also addressed the point about geki shin having shallow principles. that was the reason why he avoided a duel with gai mou, not why they didn't find him a worthy foe to war with. which is completely different judging from ren pa's conversation with mou gou.
    Renpa was interested in Kanki/Ousen especially because they had invaded his own State though. Had Mougou not invaded Wei, do you think Renpa have tried to engineer a battle somehow against him anyway? Of course not. Once the Qin 6 were gone, Zhao were absolutely exhausted themselves having come through the era of constant war culminating in Chouhei. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why Renpa couldn't just decide to pop over and check if Gekishin wanted to do battle.

    Plus, we already know that Renpa had clashed with the Fire Dragons, so if they are all strong enough to excite him, it means Gekishin surely was which means we can dismiss the idea that Renpa decided not to battle Gekishin because the latter wasn't worthy.

    there's a good number of subs in china with comparable or superior stats to geki shin, and a kou being able to emulate a number of a great generals tactics himself should honestly serve to humble the geki shin praise - unless you think a gaku ki imitation is just that much more impressive than an ou sen imitation.
    I'm including his observation stat in his hype/substance, the same way I'd include Duke Hyou's instinctual stat. I think Gekishin's imitation of Gakuki is superior to Akou's because his observation stat implies he is damn near perfect at...well...observing. Akou is great an' all, but his observation of Ousen won't be 99. Nor would it be as obsessive as Gekishin who spent his entire time devoted to overcoming Gakuki. That's why we can look at how impressive Akou's imitation of Ousen was and implement that same logic, with a higher scale, to Gekishin imitating Gakuki.

    also, there's not really a huge difference between being a state's #2 and #1, especially when the only person keeping gaku jou from being zhao's #1 was ren pa of all people. i mean, it's not like geki shin's position would've been any better if he was still a general of zhao himself.
    There is a difference when we have Gekishin who was #1 in a state for 4 decades against Gakujoe who had a very short tenure as #2. Gekishin will have had to stay above many more generals to maintain his position as #1 than Gakujoe did to keep #2 simply through length of service as much as anything else.
    which is why i've been saying geki shin's hype is lacking context and is being over-inflated as a result.
    it all goes to show that he's incredibly impressive, but not exactly as high as he's being held. go kei was capable enough to arguably defeat duke hyou, a general who could've been a member of qin's 6 if he wanted to. despite what chiyoyou led most to believe, the 7fd's in general really aren't all a lot less than the q6 or z3. go kei, at the very least, could've stood shoulder to shoulder with them.

    if you're comparing geki shin to generals like e.shi then i wouldn't argue with you, but he should be far from competing with the likes of go kei, kyou, ou ki, etc. and anyone else that could appropriately satisfy ren pa.
    I put him below Ouki, Renpa and Kyou. He'd be around FD level but I'd be hesitant to compare him with anybody else because we don't (won't?) know how Koushou, Shibasaku, Oukotsu and Chousha really compare to Ouki and Kyou.
    ri boku definitely planned to take him down, but i wouldn't equate that to battle prep and an advantage brought about thereof. it'd be like arguing ri boku is currently battling a prepped ou sen.
    Riboku plans everything down to the minute detail - he said as much to Ryofui. And he knew exactly who he'd be facing, since Gekishin was his target. He studied Ouki's history down to his experience of horses for instance so there's no reason to assume he wouldn't do the exact same with Gekishin. He probably knew all about Gekishin's experience with bushins against him for a start, which would explain why Hara had the mini-backstory on Gekishin's past.
    because the kill could've been done otherwise. geki shin intended to meet ri boku pretty quickly. less than a 15k vs 8k battle, it would've turned into geki shin vs ri boku. geki's 90 str vs r.boku's 91. even if it did result in a battle, ri boku has the superior stats overall by a substantial margin.
    everything was still to his advantage despite geki shin discovering his hq. that's why naming hou ken is a stretch. ri boku would've had a clean victory regardless of whether or not he was present.
    Who knows how that would have gone down - Gekishin's poison dogs may have just charged in. It's not like Riboku is going to break through the dogs to confront Gekishin 1 on 1 either - that isn't his style. It was Houken's. In any case, whether Gekishin would have won that war if there was no Houken isn't what we're really debating because Riboku is superior regardless. But that doesn't mean that we can't give huge props to Gekishin for figuring out the strategy. If Riboku calls it 'most impressive', so should we.
    Last edited by Kanki; 06-12-2018 at 01:19 AM.

  12. #72
    Riboku was beating Gekishin initially (for half a day, so.not a huge sample size), but Gelishin's whole strategy is being on the backfoot at first. 15k vs 8k aren't favorable odds for Riboku, especially when the 15k are elite Quanrong (while RBK's men aren't especially strong) and Gekishin hit them before they could even get into formation.

    I doubt Gekishin has the honor or courage to see a duel he is losing to the end, he will probably just get the Quanrong to swarm Riboku if the latter starts beating his ass 1v1, if he doesn't do that from the start.
    Last edited by Tenma; 06-12-2018 at 03:35 AM.

  13. #73


    The reason it feels lonely for Renpa is probably because the Qin keep invading their territory, forcing Zhao (Renpa) to battle them again and again. We at least know an instance in the manga where a battle took more than 2 years [Chouhei].

    It's more likely that Renpa is very active in Zhao West border where they need to defend vs Qin invasions after he gets his title of Zhao Heaven. That's also probably why Renpa has a deeper connection with Qin 6 even when Kouen/Kanmei are great figures in Chu which should also share some service time with him.

    Unlike the Qin6, it was never implied that Zhao Great Heaven is given the authority to freely wage war. It's not like they can just let Renpa to freely wage war with Yan when he feels like it. Especially when the previous king, while apparently decent according to Renpa, actually call him out in Chouhei and replace him with some fodder general that get killed soon after.

    And with the rest of Zhao's 3 heaven being dead. Renpa is probably still need to guard Qin border as they're still one of the most threatening one, although the invasion become less and less after the death of Qin 6.
    It was more than implied that Renpa coming back to fight Mougou army isn't really about finding a worthy enemy in Kanki and Ousen. It's more about his frustration to Ouki's death.

    Renpa doesn't share a deep bond with Gokei/Gekishin doesn't really imply their level tbh. Especially when Gokei is acknowledge by Ouki [and to an extent, Gekishin is acknowledge by a Qin representative]

  14. #74
    Renpa probably just had a special bond with the Q6, given they had similar ideals and friendship. Gekishin wasn't directly acknowledged, but neither was Gokei, Duke Hyou, Kouen, Kanmei...Renpa's just a poor gauge for this kind of thing as he was clearly a hopeless romantic

  15. #75
    Yeah Renpa not looking to fight Duke and Gokei is telling.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    Riboku was beating Gekishin initially (for half a day, so.not a huge sample size), but Gelishin's whole strategy is being on the backfoot at first. 15k vs 8k aren't favorable odds for Riboku, especially when the 15k are elite Quanrong (while RBK's men aren't especially strong) and Gekishin hit them before they could even get into formation.
    Actually, not all 15k members of the army were Quanrong, majority of them were probably normal Yan soldiers.

    It was said that Quanrong were only "core elites" of Gekishins personal army (15k).

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