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  1. #41
    IMO Gekishin was somewhere around Fire Dragons level. He can compete with 6GG / 3GH, but defeating one of them on equal terms is something that shouldn't happen.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    it'd be a stretch to assume that gaku ki had any more loyalty than geki shin when they both betrayed their home stats for money.

    also, the difference is zhao didn't have any real major battles with chu. whereas zhao directly neighbors yan and battles them about as much as they did qin.
    I've always thought the major wars happened in the central plains because it was Qin who were ultimately the aggressors. That's why we so often hear about the 3 vs 6 vs 7, yet never hear anything of Qi, Han, Chu or Yan. Unless you believe none of those states have generals on the 3/7/6 level, I think it puts a hole in your theory. They all share different borders with Qin, Zhao and Wei. That's why Renpa's greatest and deepest rivalry was with Qin, because they fought much more than Zhao/Yan.

    Btw I put Gekishin below Renpa, RSJ, Kyou etc. A comparison to Gakujoe is going too far though, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    it'd be a stretch to assume that gaku ki had any more loyalty than geki shin when they both betrayed their home stats for money.
    I don't think Gakuki ever betrayed anyone. It's said he went to Yan for the money, but we never had any more detail than that compared to Gekishin who 'abandoned his motherland'.

    If I'm right in that Hara never told us about Gakuki's life prior to joining Yan, it might be fair to look at history. His state was destroyed by Zhao so he wondered from state to state looking for a place to stay until the Yan king offered him the world.

  3. #43
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I've always thought the major wars happened in the central plains because it was Qin who were ultimately the aggressors. That's why we so often hear about the 3 vs 6 vs 7, yet never hear anything of Qi, Han, Chu or Yan. Unless you believe none of those states have generals on the 3/7/6 level, I think it puts a hole in your theory. They all share different borders with Qin, Zhao and Wei. That's why Renpa's greatest and deepest rivalry was with Qin, because they fought much more than Zhao/Yan.

    Btw I put Gekishin below Renpa, RSJ, Kyou etc. A comparison to Gakujoe is going too far though, IMO.
    we've actually heard a good amount about yan. gaku ki was even said to maintain a balance between yan, the q6, and z3 by himself. emphasis on by himself. which probably wouldn't have been something gaku ki was famed for if he didn't frequently do battle with zhao.

    makes sense that ren pa could've just been unfamiliar with generals from other states that can challenge him, but it's very unlikely that's the case with geki shin considering how often zhao should've battled with yan and the fact that geki shin's name apparently roared throughout all of china.

    I don't think Gakuki ever betrayed anyone. It's said he went to Yan for the money, but we never had any more detail than that compared to Gekishin who 'abandoned his motherland'.

    If I'm right in that Hara never told us about Gakuki's life prior to joining Yan, it might be fair to look at history. His state was destroyed by Zhao so he wondered from state to state looking for a place to stay until the Yan king offered him the world.
    you're right. had thought gaku ki left qi for yan, for some reason.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    No, you're not, you're just making up an alternative story that never happened. Houken shrugged off Kyou's blows like they were nothing and was standing tall at the end of their fight, Ouki's slash rocked his world completely, made him lose his weapon and fall to the ground. Kyou doing more damage than Ouki is simply false.
    It was a face cut, damn Shin even gave him the exact same as Ouki.

    https://mangadex.org/chapter/62959/9
    https://mangadex.org/chapter/63214/13

    he even reacted the same way, he was defeated mentaly

    https://mangadex.org/chapter/62959/11
    https://mangadex.org/chapter/63215/8

    but compared to the crossbowmen that finished him, he this time knew he would die and the zhao helped him escape.

  5. #45
    Tremendous Power Huo Yuhao's Avatar
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    Gekishin might not looked as impressive through his showings or his stats but I'm pretty sure the arthur intended to make us know that Gekishin is a genuine Great General that on the 6GG/3GH's ballpark, even if lower.

    Ofc, going with Kyou here. She's probably on the upper echelon of the 6GGs based on overall ability.





  6. #46
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huo Yuhao View Post
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    but I'm pretty sure the arthur
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  7. #47
    Tremendous Power Huo Yuhao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    lol damn.





  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    we've actually heard a good amount about yan. gaku ki was even said to maintain a balance between yan, the q6, and z3 by himself. emphasis on by himself. which probably wouldn't have been something gaku ki was famed for if he didn't frequently do battle with zhao.
    That balance doesn't nessesarily mean he did fight them all the time, it just means Yan weren't a weak state by comparison. Regardless, the 'by himself' part was back when Gekishin was a young General. The Coalition War was actually Gakuki's last war and Gekishin's peak years likely came after.


    makes sense that ren pa could've just been unfamiliar with generals from other states that can challenge him, but it's very unlikely that's the case with geki shin considering how often zhao should've battled with yan and the fact that geki shin's name apparently roared throughout all of china.

    .
    True, but again it can easily be that Qin and Zhao had a much bigger rivalry given that the former was attempting unification.

    Orrrrrr it just just be a plot hole lol.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    It was a face cut, damn Shin even gave him the exact same as Ouki.

    https://mangadex.org/chapter/62959/9
    https://mangadex.org/chapter/63214/13

    he even reacted the same way, he was defeated mentaly

    https://mangadex.org/chapter/62959/11
    https://mangadex.org/chapter/63215/8

    but compared to the crossbowmen that finished him, he this time knew he would die and the zhao helped him escape.
    It was a slash that disarmed him and knocked him to the ground, unlike Kyou who couldn't do anything against him, Houken shrugged off every one of her attacks. Saying that Kyou did more damage to Houken than the guy who actually defeated him is laughable.

  10. #50
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    That balance doesn't nessesarily mean he did fight them all the time, it just means Yan weren't a weak state by comparison. Regardless, the 'by himself' part was back when Gekishin was a young General. The Coalition War was actually Gakuki's last war and Gekishin's peak years likely came after.

    -

    True, but again it can easily be that Qin and Zhao had a much bigger rivalry given that the former was attempting unification.

    Orrrrrr it just just be a plot hole lol.


    was actually stated that zhao possess a deep history with yan like it does with qin. implying a deep history of battle, of course. not much else that can be taken out of that. gaku ki being the sole one to maintain the balance would go to show that he's the primary reason zhao wasn't able to expand far into yan's territory despite their history of battle.

    also, geki shin's fame comes only from the tours of battle he accompanied gaku ki in. that's only what was mentioned when his prestige was being talked about, at least. if there was more to his character we surely would've learned of it.

    zhao having a bigger rivalry with qin doesn't mean it lacked a rivalry with yan, and a plot hole probably shouldn't be the immediate assumption when the only real basis for geki shin being on q6/z3 level is a rumor that isn't backed by any tangible feat.

    geki shin's definitely an impressive general, but with everything considered him being comparable to the z3/q6 just seems far-fetched.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    was actually stated that zhao possess a deep history with yan like it does with qin. implying a deep history of battle, of course. not much else that can be taken out of that. gaku ki being the sole one to maintain the balance would go to show that he's the primary reason zhao wasn't able to expand far into yan's territory despite their history of battle.
    Fair enough. That would also imply that Zhao were not successful though, surely?

    also, geki shin's fame comes only from the tours of battle he accompanied gaku ki in. that's only what was mentioned when his prestige was being talked about, at least. if there was more to his character we surely would've learned of it.
    It was all that was mentioned because it was all that was relevant since we had just 1-2 chapters of hype. It's unrealistic to believe Gekishin didn't do much in the 4 decades between the coalition war and his death. Remember the Qi king also considered him a legend and name dropped him alongside Ouki.


    zhao having a bigger rivalry with qin doesn't mean it lacked a rivalry with yan, and a plot hole probably shouldn't be the immediate assumption when the only real basis for geki shin being on q6/z3 level is a rumor that isn't backed by any tangible feat.
    Fair, although again we can't just base it on tangible feats given he has just a couple of chapters. What has Tou done to be put on the 3/6 level? Gekishin does have rank, stats, hype by Seitaku and the military record to back it up. He was considered a legend for a reason, which is why I struggle to see the Gakujoe comparison.

    geki shin's definitely an impressive general, but with everything considered him being comparable to the z3/q6 just seems far-fetched.
    Well, I put him around Gokei level, if that means anything. So below Kyou, Ouki, Renpa, Hakuki and RSJ (who knows about the others).

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    It was a slash that disarmed him and knocked him to the ground, unlike Kyou who couldn't do anything against him, Houken shrugged off every one of her attacks. Saying that Kyou did more damage to Houken than the guy who actually defeated him is laughable.
    He was mentaly broken but wasnt knocked to the ground entirely, damn you even see in the page i linked that he fell after he was crossbowed, if the crossbows werent needed Hara wouldnt have drawn it... Its is laughable, she pierced his fucking torso with a sword and again his arm and slashed his body. Probably you also say Shin didnt made more damage to Houken in his fight in Sai...

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    this settles it. geki shin is just extremely overrated.
    Quite the oposite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    you must be referring to people on some other site, because this forum has people that think he's comparable to go kei, can beat ghm, and can give kyou a high diff battle
    He is
    He can
    He can too

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    He was mentaly broken but wasnt knocked to the ground entirely, damn you even see in the page i linked that he fell after he was crossbowed, if the crossbows werent needed Hara wouldnt have drawn it... Its is laughable, she pierced his fucking torso with a sword and again his arm and slashed his body. Probably you also say Shin didnt made more damage to Houken in his fight in Sai...
    I don't care about your wrong interpretation of the manga. Ouki fucked Houken up and defeated him, Kyou did jackshit and Houken shrugged off her attacks before cutting her down, end of the story.

    Of course Shin didn't do more damage, Ouki destroyed Houken, Shin would have died if that fight had continued, are you joking?

  15. #55
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Fair enough. That would also imply that Zhao were not successful though, surely?
    mhm. for the most part. gaku ki was definitely a beast.


    It was all that was mentioned because it was all that was relevant since we had just 1-2 chapters of hype. It's unrealistic to believe Gekishin didn't do much in the 4 decades between the coalition war and his death. Remember the Qi king also considered him a legend and name dropped him alongside Ouki.
    feel his demeanor actually supports that he never came across any true challenge on his own.

    i mean, he thought his own strength to be "outside the bounds of reason". his actual peers in strength wouldn't dare to think that much of their own ability. most of the martial generals we know of possess that level of strength, after all. since his level of strength really is very common that arrogance reflects more than just over-confidence, but a lack of experience in dealing with actually noteworthy opponents.

    i keep on comparing geki shin's hype to gaku jou's because it's an example that shows that prestige can be exaggerated, and wouldn't necessarily accurately reflect the individual in questions ability; especially when coming from a certain source. gaku jou was perceived as a legend himself. one that could've surpassed ren pa at that, but in all reality he could only "satisfy him 60%"

    hence why i don't think rumors or hearsay taken from political figures has much weight.

    Fair, although again we can't just base it on tangible feats given he has just a couple of chapters. What has Tou done to be put on the 3/6 level? Gekishin does have rank, stats, hype by Seitaku and the military record to back it up. He was considered a legend for a reason, which is why I struggle to see the Gakujoe comparison.
    tou gets his hype from several other figures of renown. i personally weigh that differently than a rumor. that said, tou does actually have feats of pushing back hou ken, keeping up with ghm, holding back 50k with 5k, etc.

    Well, I put him around Gokei level, if that means anything. So below Kyou, Ouki, Renpa, Hakuki and RSJ (who knows about the others).
    personally think he's only capable of giving those commander mid difficulty at best, like gaku jou. go kei included. he's surely better than 4hk level but not really close to the q6 or z3 either.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    mhm. for the most part. gaku ki was definitely a beast.
    What about the 40 years following Gakuki's retirement though?



    feel his demeanor actually supports that he never came across any true challenge on his own.

    i mean, he thought his own strength to be "outside the bounds of reason". his actual peers in strength wouldn't dare to think that much of their own ability. most of the martial generals we know of possess that level of strength, after all. since his level of strength really is very common that arrogance reflects more than just over-confidence, but a lack of experience in dealing with actually noteworthy opponents.
    Surely you can see the contradiction here, though? If Gekishin didn't have any challenges, yet Renpa and co had a history of fighting Yan, who was in the way to stop them? Somebody was, because Yan is still standing and considered a relative equal to Zhao. If Zhao were sending in Great Heavens to hurt Yan, logic would dictate that the latter would send in their #1 General.


    i keep on comparing geki shin's hype to gaku jou's because it's an example that shows that prestige can be exaggerated, and wouldn't necessarily accurately reflect the individual in questions ability; especially when coming from a certain source. gaku jou was perceived as a legend himself. one that could've surpassed ren pa at that, but in all reality he could only "satisfy him 60%"

    hence why i don't think rumors or hearsay taken from political figures has much weight.
    I see your point, but Gekishin has substantially more hype, fame, status, experience, stats and even feats (figuring out Riboku's plan). If Gakujoe is 60%, then Gekishin must surely be significantly above that.

    tou gets his hype from several other figures of renown. i personally weigh that differently than a rumor. that said, tou does actually have feats of pushing back hou ken, keeping up with ghm, holding back 50k with 5k, etc.


    personally think he's only capable of giving those commander mid difficulty at best, like gaku jou. go kei included. he's surely better than 4hk level but not really close to the q6 or z3 either.
    I think for Gekishin to be considered a legend by all of China and not just some sidekick speaks volumes. If he was just a guy who did nothing but watch Gakuki battle it out 40 years ago, I don't think his death would have played a part in pushing the 2nd Coalition.

    Likewise, his rank as #1 would be under threat by upcoming Generals. Gokei was Wei's #1, now it's GHM, Riboku/Renpa have been Zhao's, Kouen is Chu's etc...I think it would be out of place for a state considered on par with Qi, Zhao and Wei to have a #1 General who doesn't stack up to the others.

  17. #57
    This already turned to pure downplaying lol

  18. #58
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    What about the 40 years following Gakuki's retirement though?

    -

    Surely you can see the contradiction here, though? If Gekishin didn't have any challenges, yet Renpa and co had a history of fighting Yan, who was in the way to stop them? Somebody was, because Yan is still standing and considered a relative equal to Zhao. If Zhao were sending in Great Heavens to hurt Yan, logic would dictate that the latter would send in their #1 General.
    zhao had a long history of fighting with yan, but that doesn't mean the z3 themselves were dedicated to a lot of wars against them. especially since chou sa's and rsj's careers were fairly short lived.

    and zhao did have capable generals outside of the z3.

    I see your point, but Gekishin has substantially more hype, fame, status, experience, stats and even feats (figuring out Riboku's plan). If Gakujoe is 60%, then Gekishin must surely be significantly above that.
    feel gaku jou's hype is being underestimated here. gaku jou doesn't have stats to be compared to geki shin. he was zhao's #2 great general, and was their #1 for a period after ren pa was exiled(assuming he was still active). was also rumored to be superior to ren pa before his defeat to him. ren pa even said that gaku jou's warfare was enough to give him the chills.

    if gaku jou didn't lose to ren pa and then retire into obscurity he'd probably be considered as capable as geki shin if not moreso based on his hype alone.

    they both suffered crushing defeats against their only opponents in the series. discovering ri boku's plan just looks better than the way gaku jou was defeated, but he didn't really perform any better. just discovering ri boku's plan wasn't enough for him to mount a counter attack, and the battle was pretty one-sided.

    even geki shin's cavalry speed that allowed him to catch ri boku with his pants down seemed more convenient than a calculated advantage given how spontaneous his plan to attack ri boku's hq was.

    I think for Gekishin to be considered a legend by all of China and not just some sidekick speaks volumes. If he was just a guy who did nothing but watch Gakuki battle it out 40 years ago, I don't think his death would have played a part in pushing the 2nd Coalition.

    Likewise, his rank as #1 would be under threat by upcoming Generals. Gokei was Wei's #1, now it's GHM, Riboku/Renpa have been Zhao's, Kouen is Chu's etc...I think it would be out of place for a state considered on par with Qi, Zhao and Wei to have a #1 General who doesn't stack up to the others.
    honestly speaking, his death didn't have nearly as much impact as ou ki's. it's not that i think geki shin wasn't a legendary figure, just think there's a bigger gap between the q6 and everybody else than most people seem to believe. feel a general can have a decorated name without being able to keep with the q6/z3.

    the q6/z3 are meant to be exceptions among exceptions. it'd honestly be reasonable if every state didn't have someone on their level. i mean, at this point yan's #1 appears to be ordo. but you could argue geki shin was defeated to make room for some other more capable dark horse that we just don't know of yet; similar to go kei's death, ren pa's exile, etc.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Kyou wins, extreme difficulty imo.


    eh...does Duke put himself in that danger if he doesn't know that Ouki is there?
    Even if he doesn't, then Gokei will control both hills and has decimated a good portion of Duke's army.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    Even if he doesn't, then Gokei will control both hills and has decimated a good portion of Duke's army.
    Lol.

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