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  1. #21
    Juan's Avatar
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    why do all of dukes commanders have 3 clauses?
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  2. #22
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    voting for [Alias]

    both fully committed their two armies on the same locations, so this became really simply

    who would win between

    shk + kei sha + ki sui vs mou bu + kan jou

    &

    ren pa + kaine vs mou bu + kyou en

    and think alias' faction takes it in both battles
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    voting for [Alias]

    both fully committed their two armies on the same locations, so this became really simply

    who would win between

    shk + kei sha + ki sui vs mou bu + kan jou

    &

    ren pa + kaine vs mou bu + kyou en

    and think alias' faction takes it in both battles
    I think that's a bit overly simplified. Did you read the strats or did you just look at the deployments?

    Renpa isn't fully committed to anything, he's not even trying to defeat Moubu here. His clause says only if they number less than 30k would he actually try defeating their army, and Moubu has 60k with him. According to the strategy Renpa's throwing away Kaine as a meatshield so that he can slip away safely to the center island. Renpa's army is going to fall apart with him trying to leave that battlefield, and if he does flee then whatever Kaine is left behind with is going to be decimated and an big opening is going to be left for Moubu and Kyouen to wrap around and pincer alias main army.

    Kanmei and Shouheikun are both focusing on more defensive play so that battles going to take longer to progress. Also, nowhere in the strategy does it say for Renpa to avoid a duel so when he does go in on this offensive then there's high risk he's going to fall to either Moubu or Kanmei who have support ready to secure his win in case of a duel.

  4. #24
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    I think that's a bit overly simplified. Did you read the strats or did you just look at the deployments?

    Renpa isn't fully committed to anything, he's not even trying to defeat Moubu here. His clause says only if they number less than 30k would he actually try defeating their army, and Moubu has 60k with him. According to the strategy Renpa's throwing away Kaine as a meatshield so that he can slip away safely to the center island. Renpa's army is going to fall apart with him trying to leave that battlefield, and if he does flee then whatever Kaine is left behind with is going to be decimated and an big opening is going to be left for Moubu and Kyouen to wrap around and pincer alias main army.

    Kanmei and Shouheikun are both focusing on more defensive play so that battles going to take longer to progress. Also, nowhere in the strategy does it say for Renpa to avoid a duel so when he does go in on this offensive then there's high risk he's going to fall to either Moubu or Kanmei who have support ready to secure his win in case of a duel.
    kaine isn't capable enough to allow that to be a viable option, as you seem to have acknowledged. with the 5k she was given she wouldn't last a second as either bait or a meatshield, and ren pa wouldn't just turn his back to that threat. he would have to defeat the mou bu army to fulfill his clause of regrouping with shk, which he should be fully capable of doing; going on the offensive also doesn't entail a duel.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    kaine isn't capable enough to allow that to be a viable option, as you seem to have acknowledged. with the 5k she was given she wouldn't last a second as either bait or a meatshield, and ren pa wouldn't just turn his back to that threat. he would have to defeat the mou bu army to fulfill his clause of regrouping with shk, which he should be fully capable of doing; going on the offensive also doesn't entail a duel.
    He doesn't have a choice in the matter, he has to obey the clause he's been given.

    Keep in mind that Alias wrote this clause in response to this exact scenario he's facing now. If Duke's strat was to send an army with over 60k men then he throws Kaine to the wolves and flees to the center island, it doesn't matter if you think it's a poor tactic that should be disregarded, it's what he's forced to do here. He could leave enough numbers of his army behind to help her stall, but sticking around to defeat the Moubu army which outnumbers his own isn't an option, it's going entirely against the orders he was given.

  6. #26
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    He doesn't have a choice in the matter, he has to obey the clause he's been given.

    Keep in mind that Alias wrote this clause in response to this exact scenario he's facing now. If Duke's strat was to send an army with over 60k men then he throws Kaine to the wolves and flees to the center island, it doesn't matter if you think it's a poor tactic that should be disregarded, it's what he's forced to do here. He could leave enough numbers of his army behind to help her stall, but sticking around to defeat the Moubu army which outnumbers his own isn't an option, it's going entirely against the orders he was given.
    but if something were to occur that wouldn't allow them to follow through with their clause they'd naturally react to it, hence why you acknowledged that ren pa could respond with his own offensive against mou bu as opposed to desperately trying to provide aid to the center island while being struck in the back in an attempt to blindly follow his clause to the death.

    it's not that i'm disregarding the clause, it's that kaine's pitiable force wouldn't allow him to follow through with it without engaging mou bu's army, and he'd be forced to react accordingly. since of course by the logic you were using ren pa wouldn't be allowed to give kaine more than the 5k alias ordained, either.

    of course, this was covered in the cyk guide:

    They can be general indications, possible reactions in case an event occurs, specific in-battle movements and operations. These represent what the commander, given the conditions, must do. All the rest is up to the general himself, to the Commander in Chief's orders, and to how the battle itself develops.
    - - - Updated - - -

    at any rate, based off your response it's not that we disagree that he'll react to mou bu, it's to what we think he'll react to and how

    you think ren pa won't react until he's struck in the back and his army is already in the midst of falling apart

    i think he's an experienced enough commander to realize that the plan has crumbled before the situation has irreparably fallen to pieces

    of course he'll still attempt it due to his clause, but will it take very long for kaine to fail and for ren pa to notice? nah, probably not
    Last edited by Tokio; 04-20-2018 at 09:09 PM.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    but if something were to occur that wouldn't allow them to follow through with their clause they'd naturally react to it, hence why you acknowledged that ren pa could respond with his own offensive against mou bu as opposed to desperately trying to provide aid to the center island while being struck in the back in an attempt to blindly follow his clause to the death.
    I'm not saying he goes on the offensive against Moubu, his goal is to have his army stall long enough for him to slip away. I'm saying a duel is a high possibility because either Moubu brings the duel to him or he may bring the duel to Kanmei, and I think it's more likely with Kanmei since Renpa is going to not want to get that involved on the battlefield to end up in that scenario.

    While the specifics weren't given I got the impression Renpa is meant to be leading his offensive from the front because Shouheikun is said to be overseeing his attack after they regroup. Renpa likes to take the field himself and if there's already a grand strategist and tactician overseeing the whole point then there's no reason for Renpa to remain behind enemy lines, he's clearly meant to be utilized as SHK's sword which is why he's waiting for Renpa to arrive before he goes on an offensive.

    it's not that i'm disregarding the clause, it's that kaine's pitiable force wouldn't allow him to follow through with it without engaging mou bu's army, and he'd be forced to react accordingly. since of course by the logic you were using ren pa wouldn't be allowed to give kaine more than the 5k alias ordained, either.
    No, my logic is that the clause is law; Renpa doesn't have a clause to not lend Kaine the extra manpower needed to fulfill her goal, they're part of the same army and they're meant to stall long enough for Renpa to get away even if it means using themselves as human meat shields. His clause is to have Moubu stalled long enough for him to escape to the center, so he'll be doing everything and anything to make that a reality, not saying screw the strategy and decide he wants to fully commit to an all out war when he was specifically ordered to do otherwise if the enemy had these numbers.

    of course, this was covered in the cyk guide:
    It says anything outside of the clause is up to the general, but he must follow the clause. Even if it puts him in a bad situation he can't ignore it.

    at any rate, based off your response it's not that we disagree that he'll react to mou bu, it's to what we think he'll react to and how

    you think ren pa won't react until he's struck in the back and his army is already in the midst of falling apart

    i think he's an experienced enough commander to realize that the plan has crumbled before the situation has irreparably fallen to pieces
    I don't think he'll be struck in the back. Alias strat has Renpa cutting through the swamp to regroup with SHK while Moubu has to cut through their HQ and hit them in the back. Once Renpa breaks free from the Moubu battlefield, he'll be free to rejoin the center battlefield, but his army won't be so lucky since they were largely sacrificed to guarantee he gets away safely.

    of course he'll still attempt it due to his clause, but will it take very long for kaine to fail and for ren pa to notice? nah, probably not
    You're someone who thinks Mouten with 5k vs Moubu with 10k on the plains is a fair fight, so I can't expect you to be able to have a reasonable stance or entertain the fight, but the conditions all favor Moubu and you didn't even take a second to address them. I'll entertain your idea that Renpa's hand is forced and he has to stay and fight. Here are some things to factor into consideration

    Moubu and Kyouen have field control because they're actively pushing in on an offensive and setting up the stage in their favor while alias has an uncommitted approach and planning to withdraw, he won't gain the same grounds here and field control here.
    Kyouen himself has said to be someone who has burned Renpa's hands on more than one occasion and here he is working in tangent with the most powerful offensive force in all of China who has a higher number game.
    Renpa's threw away a good chunk of his numbers as well as a favorable position by throwing his men to the wolves as ordered as he attempts a withdraw.
    Renpa can't personally confront Moubu or else he'll be slain in battle, yet Renpa has no clause to try avoiding a duel with anyone, is a commander often seen taking charge from the front, and has never doubted his own strength. It can actually be seen as a logical move on his end here to want to try taking the head of a commander when he's outnumbered in both soldiers and commanders and the opponent out powers him.

    You basically just sweep all of the conditions under the rug and say Renpa wins just because. The vote just seems pretty weak to me without even trying to justify why you think it plays out like that. Just looking at your vote it's entirely based on deployment with not a word spoken of the actual tactics and strategy employed by either side.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Moubu and Kyouen have field control because they're actively pushing in on an offensive and setting up the stage in their favor while alias has an uncommitted approach and planning to withdraw, he won't gain the same grounds here and field control here.
    Kyouen himself has said to be someone who has burned Renpa's hands on more than one occasion and here he is working in tangent with the most powerful offensive force in all of China who has a higher number game.
    Renpa's threw away a good chunk of his numbers as well as a favorable position by throwing his men to the wolves as ordered as he attempts a withdraw.
    Renpa can't personally confront Moubu or else he'll be slain in battle, yet Renpa has no clause to try avoiding a duel with anyone, is a commander often seen taking charge from the front, and has never doubted his own strength. It can actually be seen as a logical move on his end here to want to try taking the head of a commander when he's outnumbered in both soldiers and commanders and the opponent out powers him.
    On top of that its seems going by the map Moubu and Kyouen will be sooner on the field of battle than Renpa and Kaine, the field is directly beside of Dukes HQ (1 swamp are between) while Alias has to cross 2 swamp areas...

    i need some time, im suprised Duke isnt outplayed directly, will write my answer and vote later and probably after crispies corner...

  9. #29
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    hory shet, this time it's alias with the hand drawn map? I thought Duke would do it again but thank the trollids he didn't.

    will look through later


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  10. #30
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    I'm not saying he goes on the offensive against Moubu, his goal is to have his army stall long enough for him to slip away. I'm saying a duel is a high possibility because either Moubu brings the duel to him or he may bring the duel to Kanmei, and I think it's more likely with Kanmei since Renpa is going to not want to get that involved on the battlefield to end up in that scenario.

    While the specifics weren't given I got the impression Renpa is meant to be leading his offensive from the front because Shouheikun is said to be overseeing his attack after they regroup. Renpa likes to take the field himself and if there's already a grand strategist and tactician overseeing the whole point then there's no reason for Renpa to remain behind enemy lines, he's clearly meant to be utilized as SHK's sword which is why he's waiting for Renpa to arrive before he goes on an offensive.
    No, my logic is that the clause is law; Renpa doesn't have a clause to not lend Kaine the extra manpower needed to fulfill her goal, they're part of the same army and they're meant to stall long enough for Renpa to get away even if it means using themselves as human meat shields. His clause is to have Moubu stalled long enough for him to escape to the center, so he'll be doing everything and anything to make that a reality, not saying screw the strategy and decide he wants to fully commit to an all out war when he was specifically ordered to do otherwise if the enemy had these numbers.
    again, my argument isn't that ren pa simply disregards the strategy, it's that mou bu's and kyou en's attack makes the strategy an impossibility and he'd be forced to engage them when attacked by them. there's a difference. the notion that the clause would be prioritized over self-preservation is simply moronic.

    that ren pa would constantly funnel troops to a commander who is already clearly overwhelmed in both quantity/quality and was more than likely quickly slain is just an unrealistic situation. not because i think the plan was bad, but because the clause wouldn't be able to be realistically met under those conditions; something that should be readily apparent.

    I don't think he'll be struck in the back. Alias strat has Renpa cutting through the swamp to regroup with SHK while Moubu has to cut through their HQ and hit them in the back. Once Renpa breaks free from the Moubu battlefield, he'll be free to rejoin the center battlefield, but his army won't be so lucky since they were largely sacrificed to guarantee he gets away safely.
    one of mou bu's clauses was to prioritize the enemy commanders. ren pa is the cic.

    You're someone who thinks Mouten with 5k vs Moubu with 10k on the plains is a fair fight, so I can't expect you to be able to have a reasonable stance or entertain the fight, but the conditions all favor Moubu and you didn't even take a second to address them. I'll entertain your idea that Renpa's hand is forced and he has to stay and fight. Here are some things to factor into consideration
    lmao.

    know it's hard to believe, but not everything is about who has the bigger stick. mou bu's strength is wasted against an opponent that'd never actually seek to engage him directly, among other deficiencies in mou bu's personality that'd allow mou ten an ample amount of openings to exploit, whereas the opposing argument amounted to just "mou bu smash", but i digress. not really related.



    Moubu and Kyouen have field control because they're actively pushing in on an offensive and setting up the stage in their favor while alias has an uncommitted approach and planning to withdraw, he won't gain the same grounds here and field control here.
    firstly, basing this off the premise that ren pa's hand was forced in this engagement would also entail that his approach is committed and he's not fighting only with the intent to withdraw in the midst of brutal combat. while attempting to "entertain my idea" you're still in all reality largely incorporating the train of thought from your opposing position. a conclusion drawn from your pov doesn't naturally coincide with one from mine.

    Kyouen himself has said to be someone who has burned Renpa's hands on more than one occasion and here he is working in tangent with the most powerful offensive force in all of China who has a higher number game.
    ren pa was also hailed by kyou en to have been more of a monster than ou sen, the man that managed to toy with him like a child's play thing. over-inflated view of kyou en's abilities aside, ren pa is also the man that managed to hold off both haku ki and ou ki for 2 entire years so it's not as if he'd just fold to the combined force of mou bu and kyou en's attacks.

    You basically just sweep all of the conditions under the rug and say Renpa wins just because. The vote just seems pretty weak to me without even trying to justify why you think it plays out like that. Just looking at your vote it's entirely based on deployment with not a word spoken of the actual tactics and strategy employed by either side.
    for the same reason you wouldn't have to explain why ri boku would beat shin, didn't think i'd have to explain why ren pa would beat mou bu and kyou en in this situation.

    been noted in the story that he's dealt with worse. should've easily been within his ability to prevail in this circumstance given his service record, hype and achievements.
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  11. #31
    Mainly, Alias's only hope is to successfully ambush the mid island, kill Kanmei, and proceed to circulate Duke's troops himself, claim the enemy's HQ and the islands on the far left, giving up his HQ, Kaine and the island on the right in the process.


  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    voting for [Alias]

    both fully committed their two armies on the same locations, so this became really simply

    who would win between

    shk + kei sha + ki sui vs mou bu + kan jou

    &

    ren pa + kaine vs mou bu + kyou en

    and think alias' faction takes it in both battles
    You have clearly not read this well. Renpa for example will not win here. Your vote is based on what?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by DreX View Post
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    Mainly, Alias's only hope is to successfully ambush the mid island, kill Kanmei, and proceed to circulate Duke's troops himself, claim the enemy's HQ and the islands on the far left, giving up his HQ, Kaine and the island on the right in the process.
    yeah thats it, its just that Renpa will go to engage the Moubu and Kyouen army and later tries to let Kaine with just 5000 men there to distract them while its Moubus clause to destroy any enemy that enters that island, its clear that he will go after Renpa, when we consider that he has that clause and Renpa enterd the island. Not thinking that its wise to engage such and offensive army and then turn back, considering that Moubu and Kyouen are first on that island and Kyouen has a clause to set ambush for armys who enter the it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    again, my argument isn't that ren pa simply disregards the strategy, it's that mou bu's and kyou en's attack makes the strategy an impossibility and he'd be forced to engage them when attacked by them. there's a difference. the notion that the clause would be prioritized over self-preservation is simply moronic.
    Clauses have always been prioritized over self preservation, and the mindset of the general is finding the best ways to make them a reality.

    If I were to write a clause that Ousen has to attack Houken and try claiming his head in a duel then it's what he has to do even if it's throwing his life away, it's an accepted part of the game. A few matches ago Nord had the clause that Kinmou had to take a long detour around the map and try attacking a huge army and we didn't disregard that because his plan was dumb and would get him killed. Hell, you seem to accept in this very strat that Kaine and her men are just going to throw themselves into the meat grinder as meaningless sacrifices. I know Renpa is more of a fan favorite than either of those two, but that doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him.

    firstly, basing this off the premise that ren pa's hand was forced in this engagement would also entail that his approach is committed and he's not fighting only with the intent to withdraw in the midst of brutal combat. while attempting to "entertain my idea" you're still in all reality largely incorporating the train of thought from your opposing position. a conclusion drawn from your pov doesn't naturally coincide with one from mine.
    You yourself said that even in your scenario Renpa will still at least attempt it due to his clause. He's not stepping into the battle with the mindset to jump in committed, but looking for an opportunity to withdraw. Even if his hand ends up getting forced, that difference is a game changer because that puts momentum, field control, and so forth on Moubu's side as well as wasting Renpa's numbers by him throwing a chunk of his men to die to the wolves. He has to at the very least sacrifice Kaine and her 5k to have them die pointless deaths.

    ren pa was also hailed by kyou en to have been more of a monster than ou sen, the man that managed to toy with him like a child's play thing. over-inflated view of kyou en's abilities aside, ren pa is also the man that managed to hold off both haku ki and ou ki for 2 entire years so it's not as if he'd just fold to the combined force of mou bu and kyou en's attacks.
    Or instead of sweeping it under the rug since you don't want to accept it, we can use that as evidence that Renpa is not some all powerful god that can take any scenario, and that under the right conditions Kyouen is skilled enough to give Renpa trouble and burn his hands. That hype is not out of place with what the other 4HK received either. Genbou is on his level in pure strategy department, Kaishibou matches him in destructive force, and Rinko was able to pierce through Ouki's famed defense. No reason to assume Kyouen's hype of giving Renpa trouble on more than one occasion is illegitimate considering it adds up with what the others got. His main skill is he's a master at offensive maneuvering and he's paired with the greatest offense in China here.

    He didn't hold them off in the same conditions he's facing here, when it's Mouten vs Moubu you start flaunting about how much the circumstances matter to allow him to hit a dozen levels above his paygrade, yet you flatly throw this out in vastly different scenario. Renpa isn't holding some grand city in the middle of his home state of Zhao here holding off invaders with who knows how many vassals and generals working under him, so it can't be equated to him stepping through a swamp into an ambush from the greatest offensive force in China with several odds stacked against him.

    for the same reason you wouldn't have to explain why ri boku would beat shin, didn't think i'd have to explain why ren pa would beat mou bu and kyou en in this situation.

    been noted in the story that he's dealt with worse. should've easily been within his ability to prevail in this circumstance given his service record, hype and achievements.
    The problem is you're equating Moubu with the likes of Shin and Mouten, when he would be the Riboku in the scenario against them. Moubu's peers are the top generals in China, he stands on the level with the likes of Ousen, SHK, Karin, and so forth. With Kyouen at his side working in unison with him he's even more of a dangerous threat. On top of that he's got very important advantages here like higher offensive power and martial strength and that he can perform techniques like pincer tactics since it's 2v1 here. So yes, I would like an explanation, especially since he doesn't know to avoid facing Moubu in combat in a situation that's going to escalate and put him in a bind very fast.

    When has he been noted to turn around a situation like this? We may as well say he just finds his way out of each and every scenario in this game no matter how bad the odds and opposition with no reason other than he's Renpa and should somehow find a way because of service record and so forth. Moubu already toppled a man with one of the most impressive service records in the entirety of China, and he did it while at a substantial number advantage, it will take more than that to pull through here.
    Last edited by Great Potato; Yesterday at 02:23 PM.

  15. #35
    The Illustrious Void's Avatar
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    feeling mixed, GP looks to take out Renpa but alias looks to beat Kanmei. BUT, the biggest thing is that alias opts for vague strats while GP's is so much more specific and prepped. difference maker could be alias holding the high ground in the end but the condition of his army after taking on Kanmei's sizeable one is the key
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispickle View Post
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    ok i have a decision to take here

    let me ponder a bit
    ponder this

    You can give your commander in chief (if you have one) up to 3 clauses, to your generals up to 2 clauses each, and to your captains up to 1 clause each.
    do you even proofread these anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juan View Post
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    why do all of dukes commanders have 3 clauses?
    exactly, one's a 1k commander ffs


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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    feeling mixed, GP looks to take out Renpa but alias looks to beat Kanmei. BUT, the biggest thing is that alias opts for vague strats while GP's is so much more specific and prepped. difference maker could be alias holding the high ground in the end but the condition of his army after taking on Kanmei's sizeable one is the key
    As far as SHK vs Kanmei goes, I haven't weighed in as much on that one, but both teams are playing it defensively and waiting for their 2nd army to come into play to win them that battle, so that's going to be much less of a bloodbath initially then the Renpa vs Moubu battlefield which I think will decide the game.

    Keisha has set up a defensive net, SHK is planning to use tactics to hinder charges, and Kisui is to strike at the sides of enemies tearing through the ranks. They're very much set up defensively waiting to intercept any opposition that comes to them. It's only when Renpa joins their ranks that they shift into more of the attack mindset.

    Kanmei is only pushing in on the offensive just far enough to secure himself a comfortable position and then going pure defense himself waiting for the enemy to dig into his lines. The game plan is for him to hold out long enough for Moubu to wrap around through the HQ, so that they can pincer whatever army is facing off against him on that island between their might.

  17. #37
    I dont think it will be as defensive as GP sounds.
    Alias general strategy is to
    The main purpose is to take control of the two biggest islands on the map, with some priority of the most central one
    Which will bring an unavoidable clash with Kanmei army

    Kanmei army is also told to
    Kanmei is to take and defend the open elevated island in the center.
    Taking control of the island comes first before the defensive battle begins, so it will be another bloodbath at the same time as the right island

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