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  1. #1621
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratchet View Post
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    I'll probably be down for a mass claim next phase. Not sure about order.
    the thing is, I have been advocating for claims the entire last dayphase but no one is active.

    I tagged @Gay; and @Wiskodeh; multiple times for example and no activity. I feel like Ultra is only not modkilling them because they are actually Town and we would be defeated otherwise.

  2. #1622
    Cafe Conqueror X's Avatar
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    The Ink lynch never sat right with me because it gathered too quickly without a lot of discussion about it. Now we're in a bind with both the Indie and most of the scum team intact. Aether still feels like a lock for me to be scum, but the question is, what should we prioritize, Indie or scum?


    The Commander From Hell

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  3. #1623
    Did you finish those ISO's @Rotaretilbo; ?

  4. #1624
    Not Gay Gay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotaretilbo View Post
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    Is this really the best you can do?
    yes
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  5. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoRetro View Post
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    Oh yeah, I need you to Claim. @Gay;
    i need to use the washroom brb
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  6. #1626
    Rotaretilbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratchet View Post
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    Did you finish those ISO's @Rotaretilbo; ?
    I've been busy tunnelling Aether. Speaking of which!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    That wasnt soft defense. I am pretty sure I've explained what I meant by that post several times. I dont see why you see a different meaning to that post. Alright I am gonna explain that post to you AGAIN: When I said, X isnt necessarily scum, I meant he could be scum or could not be scum, but doesnt mean he is scum for sure just for pointing out that Neo's fluff post in response to Avito and some of others calling him out for being opportunistic. I wrote that "X isnt necessarily scum" part not to defend him or buddy him but to make a comparison with how Avito is more opportunistic, seeing how X played in previous games. I hope I made it clear to you this time.
    Right. And whether or not your intent was to defend X, that would be considered a soft defense. That's what the "soft" part of "soft defense" means. Something which isn't immediately apparent as a defense, but which ultimately serves to defend. By claiming that Avito was being more opportunistic than X, your statement's purpose was to shift focus from X to Avito. Regardless of why you did this, your desired result ultimately ends with less suspicion on X.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Yea, that wasnt a backpedal and I explained why my posts regarding Avito and X makes sense in the post above.
    I mean, you really didn't, but continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Leaving that aside, you say that the back and forth between us felt like I am being disingenuous to you?
    I didn't use the word disingenuous, but yes, given the manner in which you chose to address my argument (or, in most instances, to not address my argument), I did find your argument to be disingenuous. It felt similar to Zemmi's argument with Ratchet, where the concern was less about the truth, and more about being perceived as having been right. It's why I mostly left you alone until I ISO'd you later and found other posts to be suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    But to me, it felt like you were purposely and desperately trying to make points against me to make me look suspicious/defend Avito/or both.
    Absolutely! I thought you were suspicious, and so I was purposely (though not desperately) making points against you with the intent of calling attention to what I found suspicious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Because the thing you were arguing against me wasnt even the reason I voted Avito
    See, this right here? This is what I mean when I say that you primarily strawman'd my argument. My primary point against you was that the reason you claimed to vote for Avito was inconsistent with other portions of your post, and did not make internal sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    and also the fact that you completely changed the meaning of something I wrote into something entirely different in #340, which completely blew my mind, and I felt even more that you were purposely trying to make me look bad.
    And if you'd been a grown-up and read my next post, you would know that I admitted to misunderstanding your post, retracted the point, and apologized. However, this is also what I mean when I say that you latched onto a single point to the exclusion of my actual argument. This little point here was one of six or seven points in that post, and it was effectively the only one you addressed. Given that it was essentially low-hanging fruit, it was awfully suspicious to me that you chose to address the one point you could easily win, and ignore all other points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Yea, it could be a mistake in your part, but how am I suppose to know, when I was already feeling suspicious of you.
    By reading my response, instead of pouting like a petulant child.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    And at that point I felt like it was pointless to argue with you, not because I couldnt argue against the points you made against me, but because, I have pointed out and explained everything to you, coz I felt like any further arguments with you, I even say that in the post #340.
    Where "explained everything" here is read "disregarded the bulk of your points in favor of mischaracterizing specific points".

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Also, I didnt ignore any of your points in #382, this is entirely false, you can look back again.
    Oh? I suppose I will go back and look, then. (WARNING: I'm about to create a list. If you quote it, make sure to either close or remove the individual [list] tags in each quote, or it will break the forum!)

    • #151 is my first serious post against you. It has 2 points.
      • Point R1-1: Part of #57's objection to #26 is that X is not necessarily scummy. This point is entirely superfluous, because #26 never asserts otherwise.
      • Point R2-1: The entirety of #60's objection to #57 is that it is not opportunistic to point out something suspicious, even if that suspicious behavior is considered "normal" for that player. #61's response to this is to emphasize the "necessarily" from #57, which has absolutely nothing to do with #61's objection in the first place.
    • #181 contains 0 (of 2 possible) counterpoints, and 5 new points.
      • Point A1-1: #151 seems forced. The objections raised there in are not a big deal.
      • Point A2-1: #26 was opportunistic because he was trying to make X look suspicious.
      • Point A3-1: Obviously #26 didn't say X had to be opportunistic, because that would be dumb. (Note: this might seem to address Point R1, but fails to, because Point R1 was about the superfluous nature of your comment; this point actually reinforces Point R1)
      • Point A4-1: #151 is defending Avito, which is suspicious.
      • Point A5-1: #151 ignored the "necessarily" in #57. This is inconsistent, since #57 paid close attention to specific wording in #26.
    • #340 contains 2 (of 5 possible) counterpoints, and 2 new points.
      • Point A2-2: Pointing out when suspicious people are suspicious is kind of the point of the game.
      • Point A5-2: #151 absolutely does not ignore the "necessarily" in #57. Point R1 is literally predicated on the presence of that "necessarily".
      • Point R3-1: This is the bit where I misread Point A3-1.
      • Point R4-1: Avito's behavior in #26 cannot be construed as opportunistic if what he's done is the normal, expected behavior of Town.
    • #382 contains 2 (of 6 possible) counterpoints, and 0 new points.
      • Point R1-2: Pointing out that X isn't necessarily opportunistic in #57, and all that stuff about X normally behaving this way, had nothing to do with accusing Avito of being more opportunistic than X. (Note: calling this a counterpoint is incredibly generous on my part)
      • Point R3-2: Points out that I misread A3-1.
    • #389 contains 3 (of 5 possible) counterpoints, 0 new points, and 1 concession.
      • Point A1-2: Points out that you were the one to initially make a big deal of specific wording, not myself.
      • Point A4-2: Points out that I'm less defending Avito and more calling attention to a contradiction in your logic.
      • Point R1-3: What was the point of #57, if all the lead up to claiming that Avito was suspicious had nothing to do with Avito being suspicious, and Avito being suspicious was effectively arbitrary? If you literally agree with his assessment, as indicated in #382, then how can you call said assessment opportunistic?
      • Point R3-3: Retracts the point, because I'd misread A3-1.
    • #397 contains 0 (of 7 possible) counterpoints, and 0 new points.


    So, how do we stack up?

    • Aether
      • Point R1-1: You addressed, even if your "counterpoint" was utter nonsense.
      • Point R1-3: You never addressed.
      • Point R2-1: You never addressed.
      • Point R3-1: You addressed, and I conceded.
      • Point R4-1: You never addressed.
      • Point A1-2: You never addressed.
      • Point A2-2: You never addressed.
      • Point A4-2: You never addressed.
      • Point A5-2: You never addressed.
    • Rotaretilbo
      • Point A1-1: I addressed.
      • Point A2-1: I addressed.
      • Point A3-1: I never addressed.
      • Point A4-1: I addressed.
      • Point A5-1: I addressed.


    Huh, it's almost like you ignored almost all of my points in favor of latching onto one that I immediately conceded, and mischaracterizing another that I immediately shut down. But who could have predicted this outc- oh, it was everyone? Everyone could have predicted this outcome? Huh, fancy that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    And my post in #453 was a joke post in response to your weird post in #441, you didnt even made any points against me in that post of your, just acting weird thats why I said "nigga you gay, gay ass nigga" as a joke, which is a common phrase in tmf, unless you couldnt take a joke and still butthurt by that, I dont see the reason, why you brought that up?
    ...? I didn't make any new points against you in #441 because the only point I'd yet to properly address wasn't really a point at all, and you failed to address any of my points in #397.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Yea, I dont see anything wrong with that post. Both of them looked opportunistic and sheepy to me, specially Neo because, he voted Zu right after X which he could've done before, so it caught my eye. How am I suppose to know that Neo was town and Juan was scum at that point?
    I mean, at the time, Neo gave a reasoned explanation for why he agreed with X, whereas Juan jumped on the bandwagon without explanation. One of the two was more suspicious than the other, and it was not Neo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    And yea, you were still suspicious to me because of the reasons I explained above, not for questioning me.
    "Trying to make me look suspicious" is essentially the same thing as "questioning me" though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Also, note that Neo's reasoning for voting Zu came after Zu's OMGUS vote on Neo, and Neo's reasoning was mainly that Zu should be lynched because of his OMGUS vote. Which struck to me more than Juan because, 1. he literally couldve voted Zu before X if he was suspicious of him but he didnt, then 2. He didnt even gave a reason for voting Zu at first, just said he wasnt fond of X but Zu is scummy as hell. But later after Zu voted him back, he explained why Zu should be lynched. Tell me how am I wrong?
    The part where you don't seem to understand that agreeing with someone, and then explaining why you agree with someone, is neither the same as nor more suspicious than opportunistically hopping on a 2-vote bandwagon without explanation after being warned by the mod to vote someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    And the later part of your argument is too much angle shooting and tinfoiling to me.
    I'm not sure I follow. The latter part of my argument contains 0 angle shooting. I note a behavior, and explain how that behavior is congruous with being Scum. Distancing is a standard Scum tactic in Mafia, and being aware of it is part of the Town's job. Looking for it is not against the spirit of the game, it literally is the spirit of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    I am pretty sure I explaind, why Avito's claim seemed believable, I think it was Swagzini. Bakugo and being a suicide bomber(as he claimed he would take down Avalon with him felt like he was telling the truth).
    Right, but that wasn't all he claimed. First, he implied a Day kill, which he had already sent in (#614/#616/#622). He also claimed to abstain at Night because his power was Destructive (#616/#677). Next, he character claimed as Bakugo (#671). Then he outright clarified that his Day action was a kill (#679). Then he claimed to have vote manipulation and a power that removes protection from the target (#693). Note that his claimed Night power is not Destructive, so he abstained despite targeting Neo with non-Destructive abilities being an important part of the plan to identify possible Scum kills by process of elimination. Then he implied that he would also die as part of the kill (#694). Then he implied that his Day kill was actually like Vengeful or something (#699), which is incongruous with him having already sent in the action. Then he claimed he could gift his bracers to others, and that he could survive for a phase after being lynched (#768). All of these claims precede your "makes sense to me" post (#781).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Also, I didnt even know he revealed about gifting his bracers, can you post where he revealed that? Coz I dont remember.
    A likely story. I'm sure it's all just a grand coincidence that you buddied Avito super hard throughout the Day despite everyone else recognizing that he was contradicting himself and lying.

    See the link above for location of bracer gift post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    You felt like I was budding Avito in DP2 but to me it felt like you were trying to buddy Avito hard day one but on day two, when most of the people were on Avito and about to be lynched, you took a 180 degree turn and started going after Avito, which is why I pointed that out that how it looked like you were trying to buddy him earlier.
    And this would be a consistent point if you could demonstrate that I had, in any fashion, buddied Avito hard on Day 1. I agreed with a single post he made, and when evidence was presented against him, I considered the evidence and changed my stance (from neutral) to against. In comparison, you repeatedly called his behavior suspicious on Day 1, and then in light of his obviously bullshit claim, agreed with him repeatedly in spite of clear evidence that he was full of shit. On of these is contradictory, and the other is rational, and I'm afraid it doesn't pan out in your favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    I dont see, how that is scummy on my part at all. I knew, that someone claimed Mineta but wasnt sure if it was Dragomir because the way he posts, you cannot just remember every single details in every corner of this thread.
    I mean, I can expect you to be vaguely aware of the fact that the person you think is suspicious has claimed an important role already, can't I? I don't know how you can't see how this would be suspicious to an outside observer, who has only your word that "I forgot, lol."

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Also, Mineta being watcher doenst make sense to me still, mainly because of his quirk and the role watcher doesnt matches.
    The translation from flavor to mechanic does not need to be 100% defined by quirks. Translating flavor to mechanics is about grasping the heart of a character, and turning that into mechanics. In HeroAca, many characters are largely defined by what they can do. Mineta, however, is largely defined by his personality, because his quirk is so boring and useless.

    I would point out that we see an example of exactly how Mineta's quirk can be used for watching people in S3E2, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Yea, which part of this post is wrong except for me budding Avito? I simply meant that, if Avalon is scum then Juan isnt and vice versa. Avalon removed Juan;s vote or made him vote himself vote at one point, no? Why would scum partners do that?
    I literally explained in the part you quoted? Avalon reduced Juan's vote on Day 2, because Avalon thought Juan was being forced to vote for himself. Avalon was helping Juan. It's noteworthy that you suggest three players as Scum together, and when your buddy disagrees and names an actual Scum, you go "nah, couldn't possibly be him! Avalon helped him this one time, so they can't be Scum together!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    more tinfoiling.
    I mean, is it really that tinfoil?

    Fact: Avito stated that he could gift his unstoppable kill to another player.

    Fact: Immediate after this, you began to buddy Avito really hard, in spite of mounting evidence that he was lying.

    Fact: One of Avito's bracers was used by Scum, meaning Avito trusted a member of Scum.

    It's not hard to draw the lines between these three facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    I am pretty sure, this point was brought against me by Swagzini and I already explained why. Now that you are bringing that again, I'll just link to that reply to Swagzini.
    http://www.millenniumforums.com/show...=1#post2291622
    I mean, it's not a great explanation. You state that you believed Avito was Town, but in lieu of trying to push a wagon against Avalon because everyone was already voting Avito, you decided to add your vote because at least Avalon would also die. Albion noted that he felt Avito was Townish, but placed his vote unless a compromise could be reached, which is to say, in lieu of trying to push a wagon elsewhere because everyone was already voting Avito. You then claim that the situation was different somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Now this is just plain wrong. Again with your strawmanning. I just simply asked Neo a question how it works, not discrediting evidence.
    I mean, go back and read the posts. You state that Neo is wrong about how the Lightning Rod worked, and then question how it makes sense that Scum!Juan would claim to target Zu if he thought Swag was a Tracker. You then immediately follow that post up by noting that Juan could be "pulling an Avito", which is to say, that Juan might be Town who is bluffing about his role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    You are pointing that out as if I knew, Juan was going to flip scum?
    I know. It's almost like I'm accusing you of being Scum with Juan, and calling attention to instances where you defended Juan or otherwise seemed to know he was going to flip Scum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    yea, I just asked, whether, Ink and Wisk might be indie or not, I didnt made any conclusion that I suspect them specifically for INDIE. You are jsut looking at the wrong conclusion.
    Right, by why them? You don't pose this question in the face of any other suspicion. It's like you already know they're not part of the Mafia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    Alright, moving on. Then you mentioned how I listed three other players to ask them for reads because I was suspicious of them, except the truth is I simply didnt liked their play, mainly because they werent contributing much and mostly inactive, I simply wanted to know more about them and how much they were following the game by asking for their reads.
    I feel like you're either intentionally being obtuse, or are incapable of considering something from anyone else's perspective. The point is that you cite suspicion of two people, but do not follow up with them, then immediately list three other people and follow up with those people. If Inky had flipped Scum, this would be more suspicious. But his Town flip takes a lot of weight out of this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aether View Post
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    truly though, what reason do I have to try to save who was already pretty much dead? Unless, I want to make myself more suspicious by doing that. I am telling you the truth, I didnt knew, Juan was gonna flip scum.
    I mean, as Scum, you have every reason to want to save a Scum buddy. The fact that you can then go "but guys, would I really do that as Scum" in your own defense to dismiss this point is exactly why you would really do it as Scum.

  7. #1627
    Not Gay Gay's Avatar
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    thats a TL;DR if I ever saw one
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  8. #1628
    Rotaretilbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gay View Post
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    thats a TL;DR if I ever saw one
    Friendo, I haven't even figured out what the char cap on posts is yet. You aint seen a real tl;dr.

  9. #1629
    Not Gay Gay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotaretilbo View Post
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    Friendo, I haven't even figured out what the char cap on posts is yet. You aint seen a real tl;dr.
    Gotta respect your efforts
    Thot Contagion

  10. #1630
    I apparently cant copy an ability today anymore :0 guess I need to hide behind someone, I don’t think I need protection today, if I die kill Aether, gotta hide behind him
    because only killings are redirected to the people I hide behind, so if I die, Aether is Scum confirmed, because my Hide does not work if the person is not a member of Class 1-A

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