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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Plot shield has more than made up for family ranks. That being said Gyou'un beats Mouten. Bad matchup. Shin loses in Mouten's scenario also though.

    Although...has this forum done a 180 and now considers Shin the best of the 3?
    Because Ouhon and Mouten don't have plot shield, riiiiight.

    I've always considered Shin the best of the 3, so not sure what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by brachydios View Post
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    Oh someone forgot about Ouhon's general rank promotion on FD arc
    What promotion? Oh, you mean to 5k just like Shin?

    Woikurus, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much does it hurt that Shin is going to be a general at a younger age than Ouhon?

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    Because Ouhon and Mouten don't have plot shield, riiiiight.
    Nothing close to MC-plot shield that Shin has had. The fact that he was in the Ouki war, the fact that he was with Duke, who spotted Riboku's plan, which enabled Shin to get to Sai, Mouten not being in the FD arc and so on.

    I don't know if plot shield is the appropriate term to use. Something which MC's tend to get, in any case. Plot-coincidence, I guess.

    Also wasn't it said that Mouten was held back anyway?

    I've always considered Shin the best of the 3, so not sure what you're talking about.
    Fair enough. Why?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by brachydios View Post
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    They forgot about Shin needs Kyoukai and Karyoten to put him on the same level as Ouhon and Mouten.

    Individually Ouhon>Mouten>Kyoukai>Shin
    I think you're all wrong then

    Hara's got them all at the same level IMO.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Nothing close to MC-plot shield that Shin has had. The fact that he was in the Ouki war, the fact that he was with Duke, who spotted Riboku's plan, which enabled Shin to get to Sai, Mouten not being in the FD arc and so on.
    That is just your opinion. Ouhon's unit got scot free after being encircled by two armies, show me plot armor from Shin that comes close to that level lol. Shin was in the Ouki war? Sure, and Mouten was in the Mougou war against Han. Duke took Shin with him because Shin asked him to, since he also sensed something was wrong. While Mouten was in lalaland after Kanmei slashed his ass down Shin was duelling Houken

    Fair enough. Why?
    Because he has the best achivements, obviously.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    Because Ouhon and Mouten don't have plot shield, riiiiight.

    I've always considered Shin the best of the 3, so not sure what you're talking about.



    What promotion? Oh, you mean to 5k just like Shin?

    Woikurus, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much does it hurt that Shin is going to be a general at a younger age than Ouhon?


  5. #85
    SHK and Tou saying he wasn't good enough, try again buddy

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    That is just your opinion.
    I don't think it's even an opinion. It's coincidences that MC's tend to get.

    Ouhon's unit got scot free after being encircled by two armies, show me plot armor from Shin that comes close to that level lol. Shin was in the Ouki war? Sure, and Mouten was in the Mougou war against Han. Duke took Shin with him because Shin asked him to, since he also sensed something was wrong. While Mouten was in lalaland after Kanmei slashed his ass down Shin was duelling Houken
    I don't mean plot armour that helped him survive - I edited my post to 'plot coincidence'. I mean Shin was put in a position to where these accomplishments were easier to get. For eg, Shin killing Rinko got him the biggest accomplishments in Sanyou, but Mouten came up with the strategy. Ouhon was fighting with Shin the day before also and you could argue Shin only got the killing blow because Sosui interfered.

    Shin wasn't really restricted due to his rank - normally a person like him would have, but he managed to avoid being blocked (for eg by Mougou). The same Mougou who actually did restrict Mouten, if you recall - so it's not like Mouten/Ouhon have been Heki'd up the ranks whilst Shin was on his own fighting the world.

    In any case, my take is all 3 are close. Add Kyoukai to that as well. Hara has tried to create it so all 3 grow at the same time IMO.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Fair enough. Why?
    The simple fact that with all the training, money and support they have since they were born both Mouten and Ouhon cant do more than former servant Shin is proof enough actually.

    Sanyou and CW were the 2 biggest campaigns so far, all three were there and Shin left then to dust both times.

    Also, you do know that "plot shield" is a desperate argument right?



    Its funny to see woichydios desperately trying to hold to FD arc to the point he has to resort to fanfiction, but with all the work Ouhon put in that arc all he got in the end was a tie with Shin. Well, gues that was some improvement after all


  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot View Post
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    The simple fact that with all the training, money and support they have since they were born both Mouten and Ouhon cant do more than former servant Shin is proof enough actually.

    Sanyou and CW were the 2 biggest campaigns so far, all three were there and Shin left then to dust both times.

    Also, you do know that "plot shield" is a desperate argument right?



    Its funny to see woichydios desperately trying to hold to FD arc to the point he has to resort to fanfiction, but with all the work Ouhon put in that arc all he got in the end was a tie with Shin. Well, gues that was some improvement after all

    Shin happened to bump into Kyoukai and Ten which has surely made up for the training, better horses or whatever Mouten and Ouhon were given.

    I changed 'plot shield' to 'plot coincidence'. C'mon, I spent months defending Shin on here often on my own, but lets not go the complete other way

  9. #89
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    So if Riboku had a guy like Duke Hyou at his disposal, you don't think he would have given him a more important starting role?
    don't really think the presumption that ri boku would've used him differently is solid enough substantiation to refute his hype putting him closer to that level than the 4hk's

    fact of the matter is, we don't know how he'd use those generals if gyou'un was replaced by them

    even tou wasn't given a huge role in the battle of bayou, or any other battle for that matter considering how unknown he was

    Does he really? He can't do anything like what Rinko did with his 300 men
    it not being something he does doesn't mean he can't. really wasn't anything more than guerrilla warfare specifically targeting commanders. his breakthrough ability was the special skill worth hyping, not really that.

    he's never been said to be able to pincer through Ouki's defense
    didn't say he has, but it has been said that he's fought against every 6gg and has dueled ou ki, which is more than comparable given he's lived to tell the tale

    his destructive ability has not yet been hyped up to be equal to Renpa
    but it has. gai mou's was said to be equal to ren pa's, and gyou'un was said to be equal to gai mou. meaning gai mou = ren pa = gyou'un

    and come on - he's never shown even an inkling of strategic genius that puts him on the level of Genbou. Not even close.
    never even said that

    All of the HK and Gyou'un/CGY have similar hype, IMO. Any order between them is fine, but no one can be put clearly ahead of all the others going by what we've seen.
    His main attributes are this and his martial might. They're his 'thing' and what Hara put time into, just like all the HK have their attributes as I posted before.
    unlike the other hk's gyou'un is multi-faceted, while other hk level are at that level because of their single strong attribute. gyou'un has martial ability comparable to a 7fd, training from rsj, and instinctual ability capable of outright embarrassing any other hk in battle other than arguably gen bou.

    He had 'constant' upper hand for most of 1 single day and starting tomorrow, likely no longer will now that him being instinctual is public knowledge.
    he was still making the superior moves even after it was learned that he was instinctual


    He is a SHK parallel. Doesn't mean he's equal to him, because he isn't, but to be intelligent enough to be the chief of military for the 3rd strongest state is amazing hype. I don't think you can try and discredit that given Hara used specifically that to tell us just how much of a threat this guy is.
    parallel implies that they're equal by definition of the word. that's all i was arguing against. saying he's not comparable to shk isn't discrediting him.


    His hype came from an OG. If Gyou'un was clearly known at the time as being superior, Bananji would know about it IMO. Or, Hara simply wouldn't use that comparison to hype him up.

    Just my opinion though.
    his hype came from hearsay, not experience fighting alongside him. ba nan ji's account isn't perfect just because he's old enough to remember the rumors. the fact that his prestige is comparable to the 4hk's despite not spending nearly as much time on the battlefield as them should say something, tbh.

    besides, it's honestly not often that hype or prestige does a character justice. especially when they were either inactive or a hidden potential or something.

    -

    anyways

    elaborating on an earlier point

    assuming each of the new gen's gg moments are comparable on some level, it'd mean the feat of barely matching him is above outright embarrassing hk level commanders; since it required 2 to accomplish drawing even with him

    while only mou ten's mind was needed to salvage qin's left wing, and only ou hon was needed to outmaneuver cgr's pincer and set up ba nan ji's army to suffer a crippling blow

    that honestly says a lot about gyou'un and his ability by itself
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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I don't mean plot armour that helped him survive - I edited my post to 'plot coincidence'. I mean Shin was put in a position to where these accomplishments were easier to get. For eg, Shin killing Rinko got him the biggest accomplishments in Sanyou, but Mouten came up with the strategy. Ouhon was fighting with Shin the day before also and you could argue Shin only got the killing blow because Sosui interfered.

    Shin wasn't really restricted due to his rank - normally a person like him would have, but he managed to avoid being blocked (for eg by Mougou). The same Mougou who actually did restrict Mouten, if you recall - so it's not like Mouten/Ouhon have been Heki'd up the ranks whilst Shin was on his own fighting the world.

    In any case, my take is all 3 are close. Add Kyoukai to that as well. Hara has tried to create it so all 3 grow at the same time IMO.
    All of them have had plot coincidences as you call them (though Mouten the least of them probably, thus why he has the least achievements I suppose). I have already mentioned that Shin going to Sai was not a coincidence, he explicitly asked the Duke to go with him, since he also sensed something was wrong. So that was entirely on Shin. Ouhon was fighting with Shin for a little bit... until his injury caught up with him and he had to look on while Shin took Rinko on all by himself.

    You could argue that he only killed Rinko because of Sosui, sure. You could also argue that he was unlucky that he was interrupted by Rinko's and his own soldiers when had found an opening to strike at Rinko. If he hadn't been interrupted maybe the battle would have ended even sooner, we'll never know.

    And yes, of course the 3 (4) are close, arguing otherwise would be disingenous.
    Last edited by Pirao; 04-16-2018 at 10:12 PM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Shin happened to bump into Kyoukai and Ten which has surely made up for the training, better horses or whatever Mouten and Ouhon were given.

    I changed 'plot shield' to 'plot coincidence'. C'mon, I spent months defending Shin on here often on my own, but lets not go the complete other way
    They may help Shin but in the end is himself that is the key factor

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    don't really think the presumption that ri boku would've used him differently is solid enough substantiation to refute his hype putting him closer to that level than the 4hk's

    fact of the matter is, we don't know how he'd use those generals if gyou'un was replaced by them

    even tou wasn't given a huge role in the battle of bayou, or any other battle for that matter considering how unknown he was
    Of course it's all subjecture. Tou is different to Ouki because he was 'hidden', it seems. That's a little different to Gyou'un and Chougaryu who were on the front lines and leading armies on RSJ's command.


    it not being something he does doesn't mean he can't. really wasn't anything more than guerrilla warfare specifically targeting commanders. his breakthrough ability was the special skill worth hyping, not really that.
    Oh come on....Hara went out of his way to hype that ability up and you can't just give that attribute to Gyou'un because you want to. That's baseless hype and wank, to be honest.


    didn't say he has, but it has been said that he's fought against every 6gg and has dueled ou ki, which is more than comparable given he's lived to tell the tale
    Whilst Kyouen was able to 'burn' Renpa and clash with Ouki, Hakuki, Oukotsu and Kyou, the latter of which were extremely intense apparently. So how can we possibly use "he clashed with the 6" as evidence that Gyou'un is above the HKs when they did the exact same? This is another example of why, IMO, some are jumping on the hype train far too quickly. People made their minds up virtually as soon as he debuted.


    but it has. gai mou's was said to be equal to ren pa's, and gyou'un was said to be equal to gai mou. meaning gai mou = ren pa = gyou'un
    Gaimou's destructive power has never been hyped. His martial ability was, which is different - and that is where the comparison can be used. Gyou'un has never had his destructive power hype either.


    never even said that
    You said Gyou'un has most of the attributes that the 4HK have, so I'm going 1 by 1 with all the HK attributes to show how I disagree.


    unlike the other hk's gyou'un is multi-faceted, while other hk level are at that level because of their single strong attribute. gyou'un has martial ability comparable to a 7fd, training from rsj, and instinctual ability capable of outright embarrassing any other hk in battle other than arguably gen bou.
    That is assuming the HK's want to play that game. Remember what SSK said obout being checkmated? If Kaishibou is going to sit at his HQ and study the goings on - which he doesn't like doing anyway - he'll get involved himself and try to do what SSK explained. Rinko isn't a general who plays that way either and nor is Kyouen. The Hi Shin Unit played chess with Gyou'un and Ten was outplayed. The HK don't have to play chess. Unless you think they'd enter the battlefield and lose handily to Gyou'un, despite being able to clash with people equally as strong as his master in the past?

    he was still making the superior moves even after it was learned that he was instinctual
    [/quote]
    Well, sure...it's not like Shin is top tier instinctual or anything yet.


    parallel implies that they're equal by definition of the word. that's all i was arguing against. saying he's not comparable to shk isn't discrediting him.
    okey dokey



    his hype came from hearsay, not experience fighting alongside him. ba nan ji's account isn't perfect just because he's old enough to remember the rumors. the fact that his prestige is comparable to the 4hk's despite not spending nearly as much time on the battlefield as them should say something, tbh.
    Given that he's Riboku's underling and has just spent a lot of time with him planning this out before the war, i think there's a good chance he'll know a good amount for him.
    besides, it's honestly not often that hype or prestige does a character justice. especially when they were either inactive or a hidden potential or something.
    unless gyou'un has become much stronger i'd say it's fair - and i think that's respectable when you consider that the HK, just like Gyou'un, were given hype of fighting the Q6.

    -
    anyways

    elaborating on an earlier point

    assuming each of the new gen's gg moments are comparable on some level, it'd mean the feat of barely matching him is above outright embarrassing hk level commanders; since it required 2 to accomplish drawing even with him

    while only mou ten's mind was needed to salvage qin's left wing, and only ou hon was needed to outmaneuver cgr's pincer and set up ba nan ji's army to suffer a crippling blow

    that honestly says a lot about gyou'un and his ability by itself
    we'll see when this war is over.

    i think hara's gone out of his way to give all the 3 their own moment and given that all 3 were equally positioned/hyped/parallelled throughout the arc, i can't see there being a huge difference as things stand, unless something extra happens (i.e houken)

  13. #93
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Oh come on....Hara went out of his way to hype that ability up and you can't just give that attribute to Gyou'un because you want to. That's baseless hype and wank, to be honest.
    my argument was against it being a hyped up special ability, since we've seen that it's not a skill unique to rin ko. think the view on that feat is just over-inflated. in all reality it's just guerrilla warfare, after all. not anything special, really.

    even if it is a skill unique to him, it's not something that can be attributed towards his combat prowess since he was performing as an assassin of sorts.

    Whilst Kyouen was able to 'burn' Renpa and clash with Ouki, Hakuki, Oukotsu and Kyou, the latter of which were extremely intense apparently. So how can we possibly use "he clashed with the 6" as evidence that Gyou'un is above the HKs when they did the exact same? This is another example of why, IMO, some are jumping on the hype train far too quickly. People made their minds up virtually as soon as he debuted.
    context of their warfare gives different implications. for instance, his battles with kyou were intense because both were heavily offense oriented and didn't really care much for defense. not necessarily because he proved much of a match for her, but because large casualties were a given considering their style of warfare.

    whereas for gyou'un it's more a testament to his martial ability considering, as rsj's blade, he was dueling with them and closing in on their hq's.

    Gaimou's destructive power has never been hyped. His martial ability was, which is different - and that is where the comparison can be used. Gyou'un has never had his destructive power hype either.
    ?

    it was the weight/strength of the blows that was compared in every example. even if you wanted to make that distinction, it's not as if it's the inferior comparison. the characters you're saying whose martial ability was hyped as opposed to their destructive power are the ones with 97 str, whereas kai shi bou's is 91.

    You said Gyou'un has most of the attributes that the 4HK have, so I'm going 1 by 1 with all the HK attributes to show how I disagree.
    i did specify which qualities those were, tho.



    That is assuming the HK's want to play that game. Remember what SSK said obout being checkmated? If Kaishibou is going to sit at his HQ and study the goings on - which he doesn't like doing anyway - he'll get involved himself and try to do what SSK explained. Rinko isn't a general who plays that way either and nor is Kyouen. The Hi Shin Unit played chess with Gyou'un and Ten was outplayed. The HK don't have to play chess. Unless you think they'd enter the battlefield and lose handily to Gyou'un, despite being able to clash with people equally as strong as his master in the past?
    never really got why you think their style of warfare is so different than ten's just because she relies on a strategy table. it's really just to help her view the entire field. it's not a different kind of strategy than what rin ko, kyou en, and ksb all have to rely on; and they're not actually better than her in that regard.

    not even like ten lacks commanders that can go to the field at her disposal. she has shin and kyou kai, two who are honestly better martially than any of the hk, and they were still losing one-sidedly until shin took over. simply "breaking the board" isn't actually that easy, assuming that's what you were referring to.

    and their being able to clash with those 6gg level characters doesn't mean they were evenly matched with them. if they were anywhere remotely close to being that impressive their combined efforts would've been able to roll over anyone. hell, we even saw how they were completely outmatched against 6gg level opponents back in sanyou.

    Well, sure...it's not like Shin is top tier instinctual or anything yet.
    point was shin is their only way of dealing with an instinctual type, so there's not much reason to believe they'd do much better than the first day just because they're aware what type gyou'un is now

    i think hara's gone out of his way to give all the 3 their own moment and given that all 3 were equally positioned/hyped/parallelled throughout the arc, i can't see there being a huge difference as things stand, unless something extra happens (i.e houken)
    i'd agree, and that was actually my point.

    while their moments were circumstantial, they were pretty much all equal. so 2 together would naturally be better than 1.

    mou ten and ou hon were able to completely outplay their hk level opponents by themselves. while shin and kyou kai could only barely match theirs, even together. hence my saying shin and kyou kai's combined weigh heavier than the other two by themselves, and therefore gyou'un dealing with them would imply he's more impressive than heavenly king level fighters.
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