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  1. #81
    Knight of Romance pizzadust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispickle View Post
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    ordo was supposed to keep a defensive stance, and has ten as backup for it. Earl shi clashed with riboku's army head on, instantly loses his spearhead -rokuomi- to one of the 3 or 4 aces riboku has up of his sleeve. Even in a day when shi doesn't want to die as badly as he did in the story, at some point he'll be taking the field himself, and he'll fall to shukimaki, or seikai, or the ryuudou. Gekishin could have been a decisive wing support if riboku had 50k men. But with 100k, you'd need 2 or 3 gekishins attacking from all kinds of points to have him on his knees.

    i think if you want to see it as a contest of strats, nord in his odd and bizarre foolishness anticipated that the battle on the plains would have been much more valuable than the one in the highlands, and committed his forces in an unbalanced way that -imo- paid off.
    l think its an unfair analysis though to see earl shi and roku falling without also accomplishing Any thing of note. To start with, the idea that the strongest spear wielder in wei and maybe all of China is falling any of these aces is already hopeful speculation, between the 3 of riboku's cards, the greatest enemy killed between the 3 is choutou. Even shin managed to straight up defeat threats equivalent to jin&tan and shuki&maki. It's a very long series of what ifs that would allow earl shi to die to those 2, same sekai. The final what if involves the direct questi9n of if shuki and maki's special is even strong enough to one shot earl shi. I mean duke hyou can survive more than a few clashes with houken before dying, why can't earl shi survive a single 99 strength attack? Or deflect jin's arrows or sekai's arrows. The fact is, characters as strong as earl shi have never went down without an insane amount of difficulty, which is why there's no actual cases of people like him dying to one trick poneys. But for arguments sake, lets say he does, it would be ridiculous to say that he doesn't take anyone down with him. Like, isn't there scenarios where rokuomi interfept jin or s&m taking one of them down? Or scenarios wh3re earl or roku defeat sekai? What I'm saying is you're assuming absolute worse case scenario for my plains army when other scenarios are far more likely. Generals of this caliber are just trash that can't accomplish a single thing and one sidedly decimated. You can say he has the tools to kill my commanders, but you can't ignore the same is true for me. Also on a strategic level, controlling the more elevated land is going to be more vital,not the Flatlands below.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    Ordo has with Tens help just to stalemate Gokei, Mougu and Rinbukun. He has smaller numbers, but enough time to make defensive plans under the big help of Riboku and as a vice commander Ten. Hes after all a GG and has enough to stalemate for several days. Rinbukun never has shown any charging abbilities thinking that he would easily break through, he clearly can fight his way in but not break the whole thing. On top of that Gokei isnt fully offensive oriented with his army.

    Riboku is a way to dangerous general with these special forces he has with him, Rokuomi will be killed by Shouki and Maki, they have a special stat and even without that they have a 90 and together thats enough to kill Rokuomi. With Seikai they will deal a heavy blow on the Earl Shi army, he is dangerous to kill but with the poison corps will chip down his army. If he enters the frontline Riboku still has Ryuudou and the Archer bros on ten bows level. And Chousou is nothing that would see through Ribokus plans.

    Gekishin is a point, but his splitting of the main army and waiting can either be a wise or a bad move. He has an elite army, but its not like Riboku doesnt know of them, they splitted up from the main army so Riboku should know that there is an army in the forest.

    Now the question is if i see Ordo holding the line or Gekishin taking a big move on the center on day 3.

    [Nord]
    the last time ordo faced a character as smart as gokei he got played with like a child, and the only battle that gokei was shown I'm actually showed him be8ng very aggressive and offensive. They can't hold against gokei's strategy and rinbunkuns might with ten and ordo alone, not to.mention mougou being there(he should be superior to ten strategically). Gokei could even relocate a lot of his troops to flank riboku at any time if ordo isn't defeated fast enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    Ordo has with Tens help just to stalemate Gokei, Mougu and Rinbukun. He has smaller numbers, but enough time to make defensive plans under the big help of Riboku and as a vice commander Ten. Hes after all a GG and has enough to stalemate for several days. Rinbukun never has shown any charging abbilities thinking that he would easily break through, he clearly can fight his way in but not break the whole thing. On top of that Gokei isnt fully offensive oriented with his army.

    Riboku is a way to dangerous general with these special forces he has with him, Rokuomi will be killed by Shouki and Maki, they have a special stat and even without that they have a 90 and together thats enough to kill Rokuomi. With Seikai they will deal a heavy blow on the Earl Shi army, he is dangerous to kill but with the poison corps will chip down his army. If he enters the frontline Riboku still has Ryuudou and the Archer bros on ten bows level. And Chousou is nothing that would see through Ribokus plans.

    Gekishin is a point, but his splitting of the main army and waiting can either be a wise or a bad move. He has an elite army, but its not like Riboku doesnt know of them, they splitted up from the main army so Riboku should know that there is an army in the forest.

    Now the question is if i see Ordo holding the line or Gekishin taking a big move on the center on day 3.

    [Nord]
    the last time ordo faced a character as smart as gokei he got played with like a child, and the only battle that gokei was shown I'm actually showed him be8ng very aggressive and offensive. They can't hold against gokei's strategy and rinbunkuns might with ten and ordo alone, not to.mention mougou being there(he should be superior to ten strategically). Gokei could even relocate a lot of his troops to flank riboku at any time if ordo isn't defeated fast enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    Ordo has with Tens help just to stalemate Gokei, Mougu and Rinbukun. He has smaller numbers, but enough time to make defensive plans under the big help of Riboku and as a vice commander Ten. Hes after all a GG and has enough to stalemate for several days. Rinbukun never has shown any charging abbilities thinking that he would easily break through, he clearly can fight his way in but not break the whole thing. On top of that Gokei isnt fully offensive oriented with his army.

    Riboku is a way to dangerous general with these special forces he has with him, Rokuomi will be killed by Shouki and Maki, they have a special stat and even without that they have a 90 and together thats enough to kill Rokuomi. With Seikai they will deal a heavy blow on the Earl Shi army, he is dangerous to kill but with the poison corps will chip down his army. If he enters the frontline Riboku still has Ryuudou and the Archer bros on ten bows level. And Chousou is nothing that would see through Ribokus plans.

    Gekishin is a point, but his splitting of the main army and waiting can either be a wise or a bad move. He has an elite army, but its not like Riboku doesnt know of them, they splitted up from the main army so Riboku should know that there is an army in the forest.

    Now the question is if i see Ordo holding the line or Gekishin taking a big move on the center on day 3.

    [Nord]
    the last time ordo faced a character as smart as gokei he got played with like a child, and the only battle that gokei was shown I'm actually showed him be8ng very aggressive and offensive. They can't hold against gokei's strategy and rinbunkuns might with ten and ordo alone, not to.mention mougou being there(he should be superior to ten strategically). Gokei could even relocate a lot of his troops to flank riboku at any time if ordo isn't defeated fast enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    Ordo has with Tens help just to stalemate Gokei, Mougu and Rinbukun. He has smaller numbers, but enough time to make defensive plans under the big help of Riboku and as a vice commander Ten. Hes after all a GG and has enough to stalemate for several days. Rinbukun never has shown any charging abbilities thinking that he would easily break through, he clearly can fight his way in but not break the whole thing. On top of that Gokei isnt fully offensive oriented with his army.

    Riboku is a way to dangerous general with these special forces he has with him, Rokuomi will be killed by Shouki and Maki, they have a special stat and even without that they have a 90 and together thats enough to kill Rokuomi. With Seikai they will deal a heavy blow on the Earl Shi army, he is dangerous to kill but with the poison corps will chip down his army. If he enters the frontline Riboku still has Ryuudou and the Archer bros on ten bows level. And Chousou is nothing that would see through Ribokus plans.

    Gekishin is a point, but his splitting of the main army and waiting can either be a wise or a bad move. He has an elite army, but its not like Riboku doesnt know of them, they splitted up from the main army so Riboku should know that there is an army in the forest.

    Now the question is if i see Ordo holding the line or Gekishin taking a big move on the center on day 3.

    [Nord]
    the last time ordo faced a character as smart as gokei he got played with like a child, and the only battle that gokei was shown I'm actually showed him be8ng very aggressive and offensive. They can't hold against gokei's strategy and rinbunkuns might with ten and ordo alone, not to.mention mougou being there(he should be superior to ten strategically). Gokei could even relocate a lot of his troops to flank riboku at any time if ordo isn't defeated fast enough

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    Also on a strategic level, controlling the more elevated land is going to be more vital,not the Flatlands below.
    having the high ground is a HUGE advantage, actually it's so big, gokei might even never fall to a riboku besieging him with a 8 to 6 ratio or the likes. The problem here is riboku doesn't really need to attack gokei. If the battle in the plains is lost, gokei is like a man on top of some rocks, with his back on a stone wall. Riboku has only the gekishin issue (not exactly a mosquito but not even a game changer anymore if all is left is himself with his core unit) to deal with and he'd have control on the entire map. That's enough to give nord the win.

    i know your point relies on earl shi holding fast and mine assumes he'll be out of the games by day 4-5, so it's kind of pointless to address this scenario but i thought it was necessary to make clear why having an advantageous terrain isn't always guarantee of win.


  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    the last time ordo faced a character as smart as gokei he got played with like a child, and the only battle that gokei was shown I'm actually showed him be8ng very aggressive and offensive. They can't hold against gokei's strategy and rinbunkuns might with ten and ordo alone, not to.mention mougou being there(he should be superior to ten strategically). Gokei could even relocate a lot of his troops to flank riboku at any time if ordo isn't defeated fast enough
    yeah the last time Gokei faced an enemy with less numbers he got killed... thats nothing to work with. Ordo is GG under the lead of Riboku and he only needs to hold his position, they will have taken defensive measures that Gokei in that short of a time will not break. Your Gokei army doesnt even go all out if i read corectly what you wrote. Neither Mougous showing in the Manga nor his Stats suggest that hes superior to Ten strategically and hes pointless when you have Gokei around. Yeah but things Gokei can do thats nothing Riboku cant do and hes to most intelligent men on the field.

    Overall Gekishin would be way better suited to lead the army than Earl Shi, if you had switched them i would probably given you the win.
    Last edited by Naki; 04-05-2018 at 06:31 PM.

  4. #84
    Knight of Romance pizzadust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    yeah the last time Gokei faced an enemy with less numbers he got killed... thats nothing to work with. Ordo is GG under the lead of Riboku and he only needs to hold his position, they will have taken defensive measures that Gokei in that short of a time will not break. Your Gokei army doesnt even go all out if i read corectly what you wrote. Neither Mougous showing in the Manga nor his Stats suggest that hes superior to Ten strategically and hes pointless when you have Gokei around. Yeah but things Gokei can do thats nothing Riboku cant do and hes to most intelligent men on the field.
    so we can't use feats now? If you read the hyou vs gokei battle. You'll notice that the duke legitimately got very lucky getting outside help from ouki. The fact is, ordo has had terrible showings, showings that prove that even in terrain that he's used to fighting in, he can't hold a candle to characters of gokei's calibre.

    So mougou's 91 strat stat, gg level experience, and his showings against renpa don't put him above a 90 stat little girl with negligible experience

    Also, in the gokei instructions I added that he would adapt to the battle and mount decisive offensives or defensive when necessary.

    Also, ordo was under riboku's command, in mountain terrains and still managed to get humiliated and ruin Karen's plan in the coalition war. Sure, call him a Great General, but if you're gonna do that, we may as well remember that mougou is also a great general lol.

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    Also gekisbin is technically the commander in chief of the plains army. Once he makes his base at the forest he will be able to communicate with the rest of the army, and he should have his base by the time fighting actually happens considering he's not travelling much.more distance and is only moving 10k elites known for their speed not 65k man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispickle View Post
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    having the high ground is a HUGE advantage, actually it's so big, gokei might even never fall to a riboku besieging him with a 8 to 6 ratio or the likes. The problem here is riboku doesn't really need to attack gokei. If the battle in the plains is lost, gokei is like a man on top of some rocks, with his back on a stone wall. Riboku has only the gekishin issue (not exactly a mosquito but not even a game changer anymore if all is left is himself with his core unit) to deal with and he'd have control on the entire map. That's enough to give nord the win.

    i know your point relies on earl shi holding fast and mine assumes he'll be out of the games by day 4-5, so it's kind of pointless to address this scenario but i thought it was necessary to make clear why having an advantageous terrain isn't always guarantee of win.
    ok, so lets say earl shi dies. It doesn't really make any sense to think that riboku also hasn't taken any losses by this point, and even less realistic to imagine geki shin stays hiding in the forest whole riboku efficiently genocides the plains army, leaving geki and 10k wandering and all this before gokei is clawing at riboku's back, or even assuming he doesn't beat ordo by tjan, hasn't sent reinforcements(he could at least afford to send 20k along with himself or mougou/rinbukun) to attack riboku's behind. This whole scenario just seems very unrealistic, its quite honestly imagining every thing good that could happen for nord happens and everything bad that could for me happen, when in reality its gonna be some middle ground between extreme interpretations.

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    Also, naki, my point isn't that gokei can maneuver better than riboku, my point is that his army is literally already behind or at the flank of riboku's army, which is what makes the idea if him sending reinforcements so dangerous, they would be flanking riboku, at this point riboku is being attacked from all directions

  5. #85
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    interesting how heart is winning by a landslide but still seems most worried about swinging votes
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  6. #86
    Knight of Romance pizzadust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    interesting how heart is winning by a landslide but still seems most worried about swinging votes
    I don't like when people disagree with me

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    so we can't use feats now? If you read the hyou vs gokei battle. You'll notice that the duke legitimately got very lucky getting outside help from ouki. The fact is, ordo has had terrible showings, showings that prove that even in terrain that he's used to fighting in, he can't hold a candle to characters of gokei's calibre.

    So mougou's 91 strat stat, gg level experience, and his showings against renpa don't put him above a 90 stat little girl with negligible experience

    Also, in the gokei instructions I added that he would adapt to the battle and mount decisive offensives or defensive when necessary.

    Also, ordo was under riboku's command, in mountain terrains and still managed to get humiliated and ruin Karen's plan in the coalition war. Sure, call him a Great General, but if you're gonna do that, we may as well remember that mougou is also a great general lol.

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    Also gekisbin is technically the commander in chief of the plains army. Once he makes his base at the forest he will be able to communicate with the rest of the army, and he should have his base by the time fighting actually happens considering he's not travelling much.more distance and is only moving 10k elites known for their speed not 65k man.
    yeah difference is that Ordos plan in this battle is nothing he has done until now and its not even some super plan involved, his army just needs to hold the line.

    I dont think Mougou commander abbilites or experience is below that of Ten, its just that Ten showings strategically are better while Mougou only known plan was defensive and let others do the work. Gokei is just way better and i dont think Mougou has anything to but in with a worthy plan to be decisive. While Ten is the most intelligent in the Ordo army and compliments him not that bad.

    yeah but questionable how fast Gokei will change his plans. And i dont think hes supperior to Riboku on that department while he even could send reinforcement.

    Riboku hasnt given Ordo any real command on the Coaliton war beside the advice with Ousen, here he can give him some defensive tactics as CiC. And i know Mougou is a GG but in your Army hes used for nothing.

    that Gekishin is CiC of your central army but splits up from it with his elites is even weirder, considerinf the time to react is long and his elites cant work without him if hes going back/would go back to the main army.

  8. #88
    Knight of Romance pizzadust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    yeah difference is that Ordos plan in this battle is nothing he has done until now and its not even some super plan involved, his army just needs to hold the line.

    I dont think Mougou commander abbilites or experience is below that of Ten, its just that Ten showings strategically are better while Mougou only known plan was defensive and let others do the work. Gokei is just way better and i dont think Mougou has anything to but in with a worthy plan to be decisive. While Ten is the most intelligent in the Ordo army and compliments him not that bad.

    yeah but questionable how fast Gokei will change his plans. And i dont think hes supperior to Riboku on that department while he even could send reinforcement.

    Riboku hasnt given Ordo any real command on the Coaliton war beside the advice with Ousen, here he can give him some defensive tactics as CiC. And i know Mougou is a GG but in your Army hes used for nothing.

    that Gekishin is CiC of your central army but splits up from it with his elites is even weirder, considerinf the time to react is long and his elites cant work without him if hes going back/would go back to the main army.
    what I'm saying is, mougou is exactly what allows gokei to have some flexibility, gokei could completely leave that battlefield with his own unit and attack riboku's back or flank. Even if riboku can predict this, he can't really do anything about it that would stop this from being an advantageous situation for gokei because its more a question of how the armies are arranged(gokei being at his back and/or flank) than riboku's skill.

    most communication happens in battle without the generals travelling. They're close enough to communicate with messengers, flags or various signals.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    what I'm saying is, mougou is exactly what allows gokei to have some flexibility, gokei could completely leave that battlefield with his own unit and attack riboku's back or flank. Even if riboku can predict this, he can't really do anything about it that would stop this from being an advantageous situation for gokei because its more a question of how the armies are arranged(gokei being at his back and/or flank) than riboku's skill.

    most communication happens in battle without the generals travelling. They're close enough to communicate with messengers, flags or various signals.
    He cant attack him from the back if Ordo isnt defeated, nor can he pincer him from the side. Its not like Riboku will not see that there is a possibility of men coming down from the "mountains". And its the same as with Gekishin, spliting your head of your main army doesnt really makes sense for me if hes not considered a good or bad fighter, give me Rinbukun and i can take that.

  10. #90
    Have to say Crispy's assessment is pretty unrealistic. He pretty much assume that Gekishin will just sleep in the forest doing nothing while the plain army getting decimated lol

    Also, the hill is obviously has better strategic value. Kokuyou already show us this.. You can have all the forest, but without having the hill you won't really take control of the area

    Quote Originally Posted by Naki View Post
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    He cant attack him from the back if Ordo isnt defeated, nor can he pincer him from the side. Its not like Riboku will not see that there is a possibility of men coming down from the "mountains". And its the same as with Gekishin, spliting your head of your main army doesnt really makes sense for me if hes not considered a good or bad fighter, give me Rinbukun and i can take that.
    In between troops advantage, having more competent cic and subs like Rinbukun + having a text book strategist like Mougou who won't lost to a weaker enemy (Ten isn't even has experienced leading 10k troops) and is perfect with troops advantage. I don't know how they can't send detechment from the mountains if they can't defeat him fast enough

    Riboku can notice the reinforcement, but the problem is that he's severely lack real commander in his 100k army to deal with multiple front attack.

  11. #91
    sigh, such a hard battle to decide

    I guess I'll go with [Heart]. Nord's plains army is good since they're fully equipped to deal with Heart's main plains offensive but taking them all down will deal a significant blow to Riboku's numbers. Shame Gokei doesn't commit to an all out offensive on Ordo, he wastes too much valuable time but near end result should pit Gokei's army versus Riboku's. Gokei's high ground gives him the advantage in stalemate, even with Riboku's cav. if Nord had poison gas with Seikai he would've won I guess.

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  12. #92
    Have to go with Heart. Not because of a better tactic... But of stronger commanders.

    Nord army is only Riboku impressive. He can not be everywhere.

    Nice tactic @ Nord tho.

  13. #93
    Crispickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    Have to say Crispy's assessment is pretty unrealistic. He pretty much assume that Gekishin will just sleep in the forest doing nothing while the plain army getting decimated lol
    not what i said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Have to go with Heart. Not because of a better tactic... But of stronger commanders.

    Nord army is only Riboku impressive. He can not be everywhere.

    Nice tactic @ Nord tho.
    please use the indicated pattern to vote, like everyone else

    i might skip your vote if you don't do it right


  14. #94
    [Heart]

  15. #95
    The Dragon of Katsurahama Nordlending's Avatar
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    I still think my plan wins.

    Ordo's whole purpose is to make it so Gokei army does not interfere with the plains army. Since Gokei isn't being that aggressive, and Ordo is mainly defensive this will take a long time.

    Earl Shi dies because he is leading the offence, and Riboku has to many lethal key players. He either leads and dies or stay back and loses because it will become Earl Shi vs Seikai and Riboku. Chousou is supposed to "aid him". Meaning the second in command is effectively working beneath his own subordinate during the clash on the front line. That's creating a mess in the chain-of-command.

    Factor in that the real Commander-in-Chief of the army isn't present during most of the battle. Factor in what I mention above. Factor in that they are outnumbered. Factor in that the paralyzing arrows that instantly make you unable to move. That's a huge blow to the moral. That army is going to crumble fast while my army has far more control and discipline is going to break them quickly.

    What was Gekishin movement during the war. Was he supposed to set up a base in the forest or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Have to go with Heart. Not because of a better tactic... But of stronger commanders.

    Nord army is only Riboku impressive. He can not be everywhere.

    Nice tactic @ Nord tho.
    Having stronger commanders doesn't help here. Read my post and decide again.
    Last edited by Nordlending; 04-06-2018 at 08:31 PM.
    ​​

    The real world is cold! The real world doesn't care about spirit! You want to be a hero? Then play the part and die like every other Huntsman in history! As for me, I'll do what I do best: lie, steal, cheat and survive!

  16. #96
    sorry I haven't been too active, got finals and shit coming up

    Voting for [Heart] largely for the sheer personnel advantage. Gokei is abit wasted on the mountains but Riboku doesn't really have a way to put down Eishi's and Rokuomi's offense in the plains without capable arms before Gekishin deals a decisive blow...the archer bros are his best bet but they are too swingy to rely on to kill key commanders.
    Last edited by Tenma; 04-07-2018 at 05:55 PM.

  17. #97
    Knight of Romance pizzadust's Avatar
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    @Crispickle;

    Timers done

  18. #98
    Crispickle's Avatar
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    tokio: heart
    alias: heart
    felix: heart
    xin: nord
    void: heart
    tenma: heart
    duke: heart

    crisp: nord
    gp: heart
    gnx: heart
    naki: nord


    Heart wins!


    20 points go to heart, and 5 points go to all the players who voted. From now on, there'll be updated rankings in the OP of the main thread.


  19. #99
    Knight of Romance pizzadust's Avatar
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    Ayyeeeee

    Good game Nord bro

  20. #100
    Shit, i'm late to the part here. Congrats Allara, though.


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