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  1. #1

    Strongest Shin can beat without taking to the field

    Shin has to stay at the HQ commanding and cannot lead troops himself, he can defend himself if the enemy goes to the HQ to kill him though. No Ten and no Kyoukai, equal numbers.

  2. #2
    Knight of Romance Heart's Avatar
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    domon, heki, gakuei tier generals, i think he would equal them assuming his instinct is developed as its shown to be against gyou, but his troops being elite of elites would be the game changer.

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    Timar's Avatar
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    Futei and kaine?

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    Juan's Avatar
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    Probably your mom.
    "You are not prepared!"


  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    domon, heki, gakuei tier generals, i think he would equal them assuming his instinct is developed as its shown to be against gyou, but his troops being elite of elites would be the game changer.
    Didn't ChouGarYuu say though that the better a strategist was the weaker they were against Gyou'Un's instincts?

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  6. #6
    Knight of Romance Heart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li_Xin View Post
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    Didn't ChouGarYuu say though that the better a strategist was the weaker they were against Gyou'Un's instincts?
    yeah, I wouldn't take that more as meaning that he's a good match up against strategist though. To put it in pokemon terms, he should be super effective against strategist, but only normal effective against other instinctual commanders. So shin and him should both be a very fair match up for each other. From what we know, gyou un is at least a decent strategist, and should be even better instinctively, so shin keeping up with him(and he's probably improving as the battle goes on), means his instinct should be atleast the instinctual equivalent of say, heki's strategy but only getting better. If shins instinct wasn't enough to keep up with generals like Heki at this point it would make his awakening moment feel kind of useless.

  7. #7
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    domon, heki, gakuei tier generals, i think he would equal them assuming his instinct is developed as its shown to be against gyou, but his troops being elite of elites would be the game changer.
    would say this too

    though think shin would more than just equal them
    トキオ Love.$ex.Dreams

  8. #8
    Knight of Romance Heart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    would say this too

    though think shin would more than just equal them
    honestly, your probably right.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    domon, heki, gakuei tier generals, i think he would equal them assuming his instinct is developed as its shown to be against gyou, but his troops being elite of elites would be the game changer.
    He just did what the OP describes against Gyou'un and he did it pretty well, so I think you giving him not enough credit.

    I would say: Ryuutou, Fuuki, Rihaku and Kouson ryuu (the four should stand on equal terms)

  10. #10
    Knight of Romance Heart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot View Post
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    He just did what the OP describes against Gyou'un and he did it pretty well, so I think you giving him not enough credit.

    I would say: Ryuutou, Fuuki, Rihaku and Kouson ryuu (the four should stand on equal terms)
    that's not true at all though, he entered the battle to stop gyou un and greatly relied upon kyou kai.

    Not allowing him to take to the field is a really big handicap, imagine if the duke couldn't take to the field, same with no kyoi kai or ten.

    The thing is, all the generals you mentioned were quite impressive, he's especially having trouble with someone with rihaku's style. Putting him on there level without the ability for him to go on field is not far from saying he's equal to mouten without having to take to the field, which just doesn't make sense. Gyou un would have utterly wiped him out if shin didn't have kyou kai and had to stay in his hq.

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    Shin could beat all the generals you.mentioned and even those a bit better, like 4hk if he could leave his hq, but you have to understand that his offensive power is his absolute greatest asset and taking that away from him is really big deal and a game changer. Can you imagine if rinko couldn't take to the field in example?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    that's not true at all though, he entered the battle to stop gyou un and greatly relied upon kyou kai.

    Not allowing him to take to the field is a really big handicap, imagine if the duke couldn't take to the field, same with no kyoi kai or ten.

    The thing is, all the generals you mentioned were quite impressive, he's especially having trouble with someone with rihaku's style. Putting him on there level without the ability for him to go on field is not far from saying he's equal to mouten without having to take to the field, which just doesn't make sense. Gyou un would have utterly wiped him out if shin didn't have kyou kai and had to stay in his hq.

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    Shin could beat all the generals you.mentioned and even those a bit better, like 4hk if he could leave his hq, but you have to understand that his offensive power is his absolute greatest asset and taking that away from him is really big deal and a game changer. Can you imagine if rinko couldn't take to the field in example?
    Im talking about before he deploys for the great blaze, he was doing all by himself and for just a first time he was getting satisfactory results. He also entered the battle to do whats described: defend himself for a enemy coming straight to him so I think is fair game.

    The thing is they werent. IMO

    And I am taking into account the handicap of not coming out of HQs, thats exactly why I didnt listed people he defeated before like Mangoku or Rinko (and I thought about genbou for a second but decided that no) and avoided martial generals, let me explain:

    The ones I listed arent martial guys themselves so it all comes down to the martial prowess of the units and all the people I listed dont have the men to overcome HSU (with Naki, Garo, Gakurai, Sosui, Denyuu, Ryuusen and Sougen) neither have strategy feats on the level Shin couldnt handle at this point (again, IMO) especially Rihaku (so far, a one trick pony) and Kouson ryuu (had he ever do anything actually?).

    Im willing to concede on Ryuutou though depending on scenario, and I might go too heavy on him sometimes BUT Im positive the average HSU veteran is stronger than the average Rigan soldier.
    And I can leave kouson out cause I really dont know what is his level.

    Ill stick to the other two. Fuuki had great hype but it was also stated that he have flaws that lead to his defeat AND all things considered he didnt delivered



    Forgot the Mouten part: you are bringing him down a little here
    Last edited by Ascot; 03-13-2018 at 08:28 PM.

  12. #12
    Knight of Romance Heart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot View Post
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    Im talking about before he deploys for the great blaze, he was doing all by himself and for just a first time he was getting satisfactory results. He also entered the battle to do whats described: defend himself for a enemy coming straight to him so I think is fair game.

    The thing is they werent. IMO

    And I am taking into account the handicap of not coming out of HQs, thats exactly why I didnt listed people he defeated before like Mangoku or Rinko (and I thought about genbou for a second but decided that no) and avoided martial generals, let me explain:

    The ones I listed arent martial guys themselves so it all comes down to the martial prowess of the units and all the people I listed dont have the men to overcome HSU (with Naki, Garo, Gakurai, Sosui, Denyuu, Ryuusen and Sougen) neither have strategy feats on the level Shin couldnt handle at this point (again, IMO) especially Rihaku (so far, a one trick pony) and Kouson ryuu (had he ever do anything actually?).

    Im willing to concede on Ryuutou though depending on scenario, and I might go too heavy on him sometimes BUT Im positive the average HSU veteran is stronger than the average Rigan soldier.
    And I can leave kouson out cause I really dont know what is his level.

    Ill stick to the other two. Fuuki had great hype but it was also stated that he have flaws that lead to his defeat AND all things considered he didnt delivered
    No, shin left his hq to defend, in this scenario he has to stay there and defend when the enemy arrives. Being able to keep up with gyou un before the critical moment isn't really that impressive considering how things would have went without kyou kai, really all it proves is that he can keep up with impressive generals for a little while without getting crushed. I don't see how this translates to him defeating people like rihaku, who had never had his defense defeated in a single battle before moubu, or fuuki who was such a threat ouki felt he needed to deal with him as soon as possible and only barely succeeded in doing so(he very nearly got away) or choutou who was able to perfectly execute riboku's plan even against great general level opponents like tou, ouki, or even being able to lead moubu into a trap and defeat him. Thinking that shin can defeat them without leaving his hq is just wishful thinking, he isn't going to be able to defeat a strategy specialist like fuuki or choutou by playing their own game and only staying at his hq, or break rihaku's defense. He could perhaps keep up with them like he could with gyou un for a bit, but not best them. You say rihaku is a one trick pony, but the fact is, its a trick shin doesn't have the offense to beat without taking the lead. The fact that these guys aren't martial generals is precisely why he's not beating them like this, he'd be allowing them to fully.to advantage of their styles.

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    Kousonryuu may be he can take, But that's because we don't know anything about him.

  13. #13
    I didnt mention Choutou, who I believe is better than Fuuki.

  14. #14
    Knight of Romance Heart's Avatar
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    To put it into numbers, gyou un instinct is probably like a 90-92, and shin could only keep up with that until the critical moment came, and without kyoi kai would have got crushed.all things being equal, he loses to gyou un without kyou kai decisiely, and not because gyou un would have beat him in a duel, but because he outmanuevered him. This makes me think shins an 85-87 instinct, so I dont see him beating 90s or specialist like rihaku without taking to the field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascot View Post
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    I didnt mention Choutou, who I believe is better than Fuuki.
    an, my bad. Any who, it's not that much disagreement, I see where your coming from, but I think shin would be worse off.
    Last edited by Heart; 03-13-2018 at 08:51 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    To put it into numbers, gyou un instinct is probably like a 90-92, and shin could only keep up with that until the critical moment came, and without kyoi kai would have got crushed.all things being equal, he loses to gyou un with kyou kai decisiely, and not because gyou un would have beat him in a duel, but because he outmanuevered him. This makes me think shins an 85-87 instinct, so I dont see him beating 90s or specialist like rihaku without taking to the field.

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    an, my bad. Any who, it's not that much disagreement, I see where your coming from, but I think shin would be worse off.
    Now I disagree cause he wasnt outmaneuvered, actually he completely "felt" trough Gyoun decisive plan of not using the big blaze but taking a side road and this was something GUs werent expecting.

    http://sensescans.com/reader/read/ki...50/546/page/18
    http://sensescans.com/reader/read/ki...50/546/page/19
    http://sensescans.com/reader/read/ki...50/546/page/20
    http://sensescans.com/reader/read/ki.../50/547/page/3

    Kyoukai needed to step in because the Gyou un army was dominating HSU martially (theres also number advantage in place), So I really think that both for the duel and for the blaze it was not a matter of "outmaneuvering" but "overpowering" that gave Gyou'un the advantage.

  16. #16
    Mangoku.

  17. #17
    Timar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Mangoku.
    thats is impossible.
    HSU veteran is not good enough to kill one mangoku soldier.
    Mangoku way to rouse moral is the best.

  18. #18
    HSU defeated them. Shin reacted.

  19. #19
    Keep in mind that Kyokai was mostly needed because A. Ten already lost a shit ton of troops to Gyouun before Shin countered him, and B. Gyouun started with 10,000 against Shin's 8,000. If not for that, it would be very fair to say that Shin managed to stalemate him without Kyokai.

  20. #20
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    kyou kai was needed because they were losing the battle at the great blaze, not because ten put them in a bad position. even after shin took over command of the army, gyou'un was still the one making the superior moves. shin wouldn't have been able to stalemate gyou'un on his own even if he were commanding from the beginning..
    トキオ Love.$ex.Dreams

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