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  1. #21
    A major flaw with Capitalism is the fact that it is based solely on the increase of wealth. As weird as it sounds, that should not be the basis of an economic system even though it’s a vital component. In the same way increasing wealth is a vital aspect of an individual working, but the base is the fire to provide a good life for oneself and loved ones.
    No.​

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    A major flaw with Capitalism is the fact that it is based solely on the increase of wealth. As weird as it sounds, that should not be the basis of an economic system even though it’s a vital component. In the same way increasing wealth is a vital aspect of an individual working, but the base is the fire to provide a good life for oneself and loved ones.
    The basis of capitalism is the voluntary exchange of goods and services.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R View Post
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    the best part of a soft-boiled egg is the yolk, yet without the egg white we would not be able to enjoy it. i agree that without capitalism as a key factor in industrialized nations we would ne able to live to the standards we take for granted. however certain aspects from a social point of view are necessary in these mixed systems.

    there is no need of speaking in general terms. just like a buffet the best economic system picks the best available things from both and merges them to one
    Why are you comparing economies to egg whites and buffets?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    The basis of capitalism is the voluntary exchange of goods and services.

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    Why are you comparing economies to egg whites and buffets?
    would you disagree with the fact that the best economic system takes the positives from the available systems while trying to diminish the negatives?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by R View Post
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    would you disagree with the fact that the best economic system takes the positives from the available systems while trying to diminish the negatives?
    There are literally no positives in socialism. What exactly about the system do you like? Even on a humanitarian level, it certainly hasn’t pulled third world countries out of poverty at the rate that free market practices have. In fact, it hasn’t helped at all with that.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    There are literally no positives in socialism. What exactly about the system do you like? Even on a humanitarian level, it certainly hasn’t pulled third world countries out of poverty at the rate that free market practices have. In fact, it hasn’t helped at all with that.
    the problem with your viewpoint on the matter is that you reduce socialism to its pure approach of the first hour which likely refers to the complete lack of private owned property, realsocialisms, 1 party governments and basically puts this very close to communisms in its essence.

    socialism throughout history has always been subject to change and different definitions. in my own posts in this thread i purposedly avoided the term "socialism", because i am aware of the heavy negative associations that come with it. instead i used the broad term of social-aspects, which should be enforced in a capitalistic society. i agreed with fabs statement where he used the word simply due to simplicity and to enforce my prior posted opinion.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by R View Post
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    the problem with your viewpoint on the matter is that you reduce socialism to its pure approach of the first hour which likely refers to the complete lack of private owned property, realsocialisms, 1 party governments and basically puts this very close to communisms in its essence.

    socialism throughout history has always been subject to change and different definitions. in my own posts in this thread i purposedly avoided the term "socialism", because i am aware of the heavy negative associations that come with it. instead i used the broad term of social-aspects, which should be enforced in a capitalistic society. i agreed with fabs statement where he used the word simply due to simplicity and to enforce my prior posted opinion.
    I’m just curious what parts of socialism you think work.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispickle View Post
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    reminder capitalism is legitimized robbery

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    I’m just curious what parts of socialism you think work.
    every part which allow the society to take a step closer to equity and solidarity. the social democratic approach of many european nations. be it universal healthcare or universal wellfare. one big topic which i follow is the unconditional basic income. depending on the results of its field tests in scandinavian and middle european countries it might replace the current wellfare system.

    i purposedly left out equality and freedom since both are too wide a subject to discuss here.

    i do not think the approaches of totalitarian countries work in anyones favour.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    The basis of capitalism is the voluntary exchange of goods and services.
    In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. Capital is literally another word for money. Capitalism is moneyism.
    No.​

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra View Post
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    Capitalism

    "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

    ding ding ding


  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispickle View Post
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    ding ding ding
    Profit

    "a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something."


  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. Capital is literally another word for money. Capitalism is moneyism.
    No, that’s how it works in practice. Bill Gates didn’t force you to use Windows. Steve Jobs didn’t force you to use an iPhone. The Mexican restaurant down the street didn’t force you to eat there. You found the services convenient and enjoyable, so you partook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R View Post
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    every part which allow the society to take a step closer to equity and solidarity. the social democratic approach of many european nations. be it universal healthcare or universal wellfare. one big topic which i follow is the unconditional basic income. depending on the results of its field tests in scandinavian and middle european countries it might replace the current wellfare system.

    i purposedly left out equality and freedom since both are too wide a subject to discuss here.

    i do not think the approaches of totalitarian countries work in anyones favour.
    Okay, so you’re a social engineer with no regard for the free market.

    Tell me who’s paying for your universal basic income and universal healthcare. The taxpayers? And what if they don’t want to use those services or pay for other people to use them? Are you gonna hold them at gunpoint and throw them in prison for not participating in your grand social experiment? I would hope not, Mr. “I don’t like the approaches of totalitarian counties”

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Okay, so you’re a social engineer with no regard for the free market.

    Tell me who’s paying for your universal basic income and universal healthcare. The taxpayers? And what if they don’t want to use those services or pay for other people to use them? Are you gonna hold them at gunpoint and throw them in prison for not participating in your grand social experiment? I would hope not, Mr. “I don’t like the approaches of totalitarian counties”
    do you believe germany is having no regard to the free market?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by R View Post
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    do you believe germany is having no regard to the free market?
    I asked you what works in socialism. You listed completely unsustainable programs like UBI and Universal Healthcare. And you didn’t answer my question. What horrible things happen to people who don’t want to partake in your socialist experiment?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    I asked you what works in socialism. You listed completely unsustainable programs like UBI and Universal Healthcare. And you didn’t answer my question. What horrible things happen to people who don’t want to partake in your socialist experiment?
    that is one of the problems i have whenever i am discussing with you. instead of focussing on the points made, you abstractly take the arguments and create a scenario which is aimed to invalidate the arguments, without taking the context of the entire debate into consideration.

    for example, where do i have stated that i have no regard to the free market? someone who open minded follows the discussion would have no trouble understanding that i do in fact encourage capitalism and see it as the key factor for a striving society. specifically these points are to be noted

    maximizing the profits as much as possible while making sure that no one really falls off the table
    without capitalism as a key factor in industrialized nations we would ne able to live to the standards we take for granted
    so your initial response is already based of a wrong premise.

    moving on to your second part, the question who is paying for the benefits i believe every citizen should always have, regardless his social or financial status.

    yes, the citizens itself are paying for it either via mandatory universal healthcare insurance or a fraction of their taxes will be used. models like this cover approximately the entirety of the european union. i do not understand how you come to the conclusion that i formulated the idea of a "socialistic experiment" when it already is widely adopted and effectively used in the majority of the worldst biggest financial bloc.

    moving on the third part, and you questioning what will happen if people do not want their money to be used in specific ways.

    this is not a question solely related to the idea of universal healthcare of wellfare. the governmend budget covers a lot of things which will never directly or even indirectly affect every individual. "i never visit this park 2 cities away, why did it get a million funding", "i never had a crash in my car, why do i have to pay car insurance" , "i do not support the idea of polluting the air with cars, why do i have to pay taxes in general, when billions are used to improve the infrastructure on highways".

    are you 100% behind every single dollar the government spends from your taxmoney? i do not think so, since they also fund foundations who clearly follow a different political and philosophical approach than you do. why have you not simply stopped paying taxes?

    because you would be met with fines or prison sentence.

    i would understand if you were to argue specific rates of distribution in regards to healthcare and wellfare, since there are many factors to be considered, however simply speaking in one dimensional approaches do neither you nor the discussion any good.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by R View Post
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    that is one of the problems i have whenever i am discussing with you. instead of focussing on the points made, you abstractly take the arguments and create a scenario which is aimed to invalidate the arguments, without taking the context of the entire debate into consideration.

    for example, where do i have stated that i have no regard to the free market? someone who open minded follows the discussion would have no trouble understanding that i do in fact encourage capitalism and see it as the key factor for a striving society. specifically these points are to be noted





    so your initial response is already based of a wrong premise.

    moving on to your second part, the question who is paying for the benefits i believe every citizen should always have, regardless his social or financial status.

    yes, the citizens itself are paying for it either via mandatory universal healthcare insurance or a fraction of their taxes will be used. models like this cover approximately the entirety of the european union. i do not understand how you come to the conclusion that i formulated the idea of a "socialistic experiment" when it already is widely adopted and effectively used in the majority of the worldst biggest financial bloc.

    moving on the third part, and you questioning what will happen if people do not want their money to be used in specific ways.

    this is not a question solely related to the idea of universal healthcare of wellfare. the governmend budget covers a lot of things which will never directly or even indirectly affect every individual. "i never visit this park 2 cities away, why did it get a million funding", "i never had a crash in my car, why do i have to pay car insurance" , "i do not support the idea of polluting the air with cars, why do i have to pay taxes in general, when billions are used to improve the infrastructure on highways".

    are you 100% behind every single dollar the government spends from your taxmoney? i do not think so, since they also fund foundations who clearly follow a different political and philosophical approach than you do. why have you not simply stopped paying taxes?

    because you would be met with fines or prison sentence.

    i would understand if you were to argue specific rates of distribution in regards to healthcare and wellfare, since there are many factors to be considered, however simply speaking in one dimensional approaches do neither you nor the discussion any good.
    Okay, so you do support locking people in cages for not wanting to subsidize your loony social programs. That’s all I was asking you. You’re a totalitarian. I’m not judging you. That’s just what you are.

    Again, you haven’t explained where all this money for UBI is coming from. Let’s do a thought exercise. Let’s say that the UBI in the USA will be $30,000. We have about 350 million people in the USA, with about 250 million people over the age of 18. You’d have to raise $7,500,000,000,000 to cover all those people. Aside from a myriad of other problems, how on earth are we supposed to cover those funds?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    No, that’s how it works in practice. Bill Gates didn’t force you to use Windows. Steve Jobs didn’t force you to use an iPhone. The Mexican restaurant down the street didn’t force you to eat there. You found the services convenient and enjoyable, so you partook.
    Indeed. But what does that have to do with what I said? The primary concern of capitalism is still profit, the exchange of goods and services is just a means to that end.
    No.​

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    Indeed. But what does that have to do with what I said? The primary concern of capitalism is still profit, the exchange of goods and services is just a means to that end.
    We’re mammals, PoPs. The point to our entire existence is making profits. We want maximum resources for minimum output. You haven’t explained why that’s an inherently bad thing.

  19. #39
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    @Crispinianus; Do you believe that total free market capitalism is also morally superior in every possible way?

    Ex: Plant dumping toxic waste in the environment instead of disposing of it properly because it's easier

    Ex2: Social programs geared towards better education or small business loans for poor people, which would in turn encourage a more free market economy

    Libertarians say flip the switch and the free market will solve everything but that's intellectually lazy. Free market solves a lot of the problems caused by unnecessary and intervention - that doesn't mean it wouldn't create new problems in its wake or fail to solve other issues

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Okay, so you do support locking people in cages for not wanting to subsidize your loony social programs. That’s all I was asking you. You’re a totalitarian. I’m not judging you. That’s just what you are.
    if you feel better embracing that narrative instead of disputing with the arguments made i do accept that.

    thanks for the civil debate.

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