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Thread: Gyou'un vs Tou

  1. #21
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    sure, but doubt tou could compare with the intellect and tactics of those generals
    Why do you think that? Karin is a genius at warfare who was the only one who understood Riboku's plans back at the Coalition war and Tou matched her just fine. With all the advantages she's had, KP and Tou should've fallen, but she failed at both.

  2. #22
    Knight of Elegance Aliasniamor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    wouldn't say kingdom is an A > B > C type series when it comes to power level or character strengths

    hard to imagine tou coming out on top with absolute certainty against an instinctual general of his calibre

    for instance, kei sha had less going for him than gyou'un and was able to best ri boku a fair number of times in their simulations, as well as trap duke hyou

    that said, don't think something like tou's rank alone should warrant him getting the benefit of the doubt here
    Why do you say Kei Sha had less going for her (Keisha's a girl ) than Gyou ?

  3. #23
    Tou very high difficulty.

    His army is not stronger than Gyou'un his and he will have 1 vs 1 a hell of a battle too. Eventually, it is Tou we are speaking about hence the reason he will win. He will be quite heavily wounded tho.

  4. #24
    Instinct and Knowledge is both effective against each other. It will be like Duke Hyou vs Gokei with both having an effective attack on each other

    Gyou'un simply hasn't shown himself as someone who can stand on Tou's level, be it on strategic level, martial or even leadership

    Plus it's hard to imagine someone active since Ouki generation to not have any experience to answer instinctual generals

  5. #25
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Why do you think that? Karin is a genius at warfare who was the only one who understood Riboku's plans back at the Coalition war and Tou matched her just fine. With all the advantages she's had, KP and Tou should've fallen, but she failed at both.
    he didn't, though. tou's formation only held because of mou ten and ou hon, and even then it was all ultimately just a feint. tou wasn't able to see through ka rin's true intentions and kp would've fallen had ou sen not noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Daddy Alias View Post
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    Why do you say Kei Sha had less going for her (Keisha's a girl ) than Gyou ?
    oh, my bad for assuming her gender

    gyou'un has experience over her and was actually drilled in high level strategy by rsj. he's stronger, more equipped, and with his experience his instinct should also be steps ahead.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    he didn't, though. tou's formation only held because of mou ten and ou hon, and even then it was all ultimately just a feint. tou wasn't able to see through ka rin's true intentions and kp would've fallen had ou sen not noticed.
    And who sent Ouhon and Mouten there? It's Tou's credit, or are we now giving generals credit only for the things they achieve with their own blade?

    Feint or not, she was still outgunning him severely. What you're saying makes no sense, with the pieces she held in her hands, she could've done both. Or is it perhaps better to just take KP, without killing Tou?

  7. #27
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    And who sent Ouhon and Mouten there? It's Tou's credit, or are we now giving generals credit only for the things they achieve with their own blade?
    all tou did was assign a unit to them, he didn't instruct them on what to do. that's why it's their credit and not his.

    what you're saying would be like giving the duke credit for killing man goku and rallying his rear in his battle with kei sha instead of shin

    Or is it perhaps better to just take KP, without killing Tou?
    ironically, it's exactly the sentiment ka rin had

    she even said she was never aiming for tou's head to begin with
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  8. #28
    Tou is IMO far better general than Gyou'un, with lots of experience fighting beside Ouki, and he has not clear weakness as GHM said.


    But in a 1vs1 battle I am not sure at this point, Tou is really strong but we haven´t seen anything yet of Gyou'un, but I expect him at least on pair with Tou.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Stark777 View Post
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    Tou is IMO far better general than Gyou'un, with lots of experience fighting beside Ouki, and he has not clear weakness as GHM said.


    But in a 1vs1 battle I am not sure at this point, Tou is really strong but we haven´t seen anything yet of Gyou'un, but I expect him at least on pair with Tou.
    If Gyou'un is as strong as Tou, then Shin is in deep shit. Well I guess him and Kyoukai could always double team him, but I think Shin's taking this one alone.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Stark777 View Post
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    Tou is IMO far better general than Gyou'un, with lots of experience fighting beside Ouki, and he has not clear weakness as GHM said.


    But in a 1vs1 battle I am not sure at this point, Tou is really strong but we haven´t seen anything yet of Gyou'un, but I expect him at least on pair with Tou.
    What do you mean "at least" on par with Tou? What hype or feats does Gyou'un have that you'd expect Tou to be the bare minimum level of what he should be at? Gyou'un is good no doubt, but Tou is proven to be one of the most formidable warriors in the series with legit Great General weight in his favor. I'd say "at most" Tou level is a much more reasonable claim but I personally wouldn't put him that high without reason to believe it, let alone even higher.

  11. #31
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    all tou did was assign a unit to them, he didn't instruct them on what to do. that's why it's their credit and not his.

    what you're saying would be like giving the duke credit for killing man goku and rallying his rear in his battle with kei sha instead of shin
    Had he not assigned them there, whose fault would it be that the formation caved in? There's no reason to believe Tou didn't know they were gonna react the way they did, else he wouldn't have done it.

    That's a different thing because Shin wasn't specifically put there by the Duke. Never the less, he only got credit for the Mangoku kill, not for a stalemate between the Duke and Keisha armies.


    ironically, it's exactly the sentiment ka rin had

    she even said she was never aiming for tou's head to begin with
    I know she did, but that's just a bold claim on her part. Someone as proud as her has every reason to reap as many general heads as she can so she can strut around.

    Either way, she clashed with Tou immediately after he finished dealing with Rinbukun and she did so in grand fashion, unleashing elephants and another ambush on top of that. How many generals, except Tou, could've walked out of that alive?



    Saying Riboku and Ousen are strategically more adept is fine, since they are supposed to be the 2 best in all of china, but saying that Tou can't even compare is just not true.

  12. #32
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Saying Riboku and Ousen are strategically more adept is fine, since they are supposed to be the 2 best in all of china, but saying that Tou can't even compare is just not true.
    the conclusions you're coming to here are pretty forced.

    if you want to stick to this idea of yours that's fine, but none of it's actually suggested in the narrative.

    Had he not assigned them there, whose fault would it be that the formation caved in? There's no reason to believe Tou didn't know they were gonna react the way they did, else he wouldn't have done it.

    That's a different thing because Shin wasn't specifically put there by the Duke. Never the less, he only got credit for the Mangoku kill, not for a stalemate between the Duke and Keisha armies.
    there's no way tou could've known how they'd act when he never had the opportunity to discuss it with them or get experience fighting alongside them.

    and the point with the shin example was to explain why mou ten and ou hon's actions shouldn't be credited to tou's strategical acuity when they weren't instructed to perform the way they did by him.

    trust ≠ strategy

    I know she did, but that's just a bold claim on her part. Someone as proud as her has every reason to reap as many general heads as she can so she can strut around.

    Either way, she clashed with Tou immediately after he finished dealing with Rinbukun and she did so in grand fashion, unleashing elephants and another ambush on top of that. How many generals, except Tou, could've walked out of that alive?
    the point was mou ten and ou hon's actions shouldn't be credited to tou's strategic acuity when he wasn't the one that came up with their plain.
    like i said before, you can believe this if you want but it was explicitly stated and shown that her intentions weren't to claim tou or mou bu's heads. this is supported by her having both the elephants and her armies retreat before they were able to accomplish all they were capable of. we're not just going off her words, we actually saw her pull every one of those forces back when she felt her enemy was sufficiently distracted; like a legitimate feint.

    she had to explain this to kou yoku and haku rei because, like you, they felt they should've been trying to take tou's head and that retreating wasn't conducive to that effort.

    the feint wasn't just some contingency plan she was forced to use because the objective of taking tou's head failed. her actions show us she legitimately never aimed for tou's head to begin with.
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  13. #33
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    the conclusions you're coming to here are pretty forced.

    if you want to stick to this idea of yours that's fine, but none of it's actually suggested in the narrative.
    We know what Ouki's opinion of Tou was and after that we've had GHM point out Tou being head and shoulders above all other Qin generals. Suddenly pushing for Tou not being comparable to Ousen isn't gonna work.

    The rest it going in circles.

  14. #34
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    We know what Ouki's opinion of Tou was and after that we've had GHM point out Tou being head and shoulders above all other Qin generals. Suddenly pushing for Tou not being comparable to Ousen isn't gonna work.
    ou ki also said that there was no general in qin worthy of the qin six's name, which included tou. ghm specified that it was tou's experience that made him troublesome, not his actual ability. and it wasn't said that tou was "head and shoulders" above the other generals either; it was just said that he lacked any specific flaw.

    besides, tou being on their level doesn't mean every facet of his needs to be comparable to their strongest asset. tou isn't as strong as mou bu, and he isn't as smart as generals like ou sen, ri boku, or ka rin... this doesn't speak against his overall ability.

    The rest it going in circles.
    lol

    edit:



    tou would even make remarks on ou ki's genius, implying his own acumen isn't on his level

    tou is an amazing general but you're overestimating his ability
    Last edited by Tokio; 02-01-2018 at 10:06 PM.
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  15. #35
    Tou is indeed overrated here. He is great and all but people acting like he is invincible. Karin played him. While her focus was not even taking his life.

  16. #36
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    ou ki also said that there was no general in qin worthy of the qin six's name, which included tou.
    Or because he knew Tou would never leave his side to be a stand alone general.

    ghm specified that it was tou's experience that made him troublesome, not his actual ability. and it wasn't said that tou was "head and shoulders" above the other generals either; it was just said that he lacked any specific flaw.
    Oh, really?


    besides, tou being on their level doesn't mean every facet of his needs to be comparable to their strongest asset. tou isn't as strong as mou bu, and he isn't as smart as generals like ou sen, ri boku, or ka rin... this doesn't speak against his overall ability.
    Of course, that much should be obvious.

    That being said, he's a general that relies mostly on strategy. If he weren't comparable to Ousen in that department, he wouldn't even be his equal, much less anything more than that. Someone like Moubu is, but that's because he's the strongest and his leadership is up there too.

    tou would even make remarks on ou ki's genius, implying his own acumen isn't on his level
    He's just praising Ouki like he always did, wouldn't take it too seriously. Not that it matters since I never said he was Ouki's equal.

    tou is an amazing general but you're overestimating his ability
    Nah, you're overestimating Ousen and Riboku. They aren't aliens that are untouchable by the rest of the world. Ouki, Renpa, Gokei, GHM, Karin, SSK, SHK, Tou and some I may have forgotten are all comparable strategists to them.

  17. #37
    Tou:

    > Ouki said Tou's abilities were never beneath his to begin with.
    > Reiou and Gohoumei claim he is the most dangerous Qin General
    > The databook claims his abilities are 'not far off Ouki's'.
    > Qin's 2nd Great General
    > Strength stat; 96
    > Leadership stat; 94
    > Knowledge stat; 94
    > Experience stat; S

    ....

    4HK tier IMO

  18. #38
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Or because he knew Tou would never leave his side to be a stand alone general.
    inclination isn't a factor in whether or not someone is worthy

    Oh, really?
    get that mess out of here

    better translation for ya. official afaik




    Of course, that much should be obvious.

    That being said, he's a general that relies mostly on strategy. If he weren't comparable to Ousen in that department, he wouldn't even be his equal, much less anything more than that. Someone like Moubu is, but that's because he's the strongest and his leadership is up there too.
    as ghm said it's tou's experience that makes him troublesome and it's what allows him to compete with them.

    He's just praising Ouki like he always did, wouldn't take it too seriously. Not that it matters since I never said he was Ouki's equal.
    of course you wouldn't

    was it not ou ki's statement that tou's abilities weren't below his that you were using as basis for your argument? hell, you're even arguing below that tou is comparable to him in strategy

    Nah, you're overestimating Ousen and Riboku. They aren't aliens that are untouchable by the rest of the world. Ouki, Renpa, Gokei, GHM, Karin, SSK, SHK, Tou and some I may have forgotten are all comparable strategists to them.
    there are people that can compete with them, tou just isn't one

    tou's knowledge stat is below literally all of those generals, by far

    ou ki is the closest to him stat wise and it'd be a stretch to argue tou is even his equal tactically

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Tou:

    > Ouki said Tou's abilities were never beneath his to begin with.
    > Reiou and Gohoumei claim he is the most dangerous Qin General
    > The databook claims his abilities are 'not far off Ouki's'.
    > Qin's 2nd Great General
    > Strength stat; 96
    > Leadership stat; 94
    > Knowledge stat; 94
    > Experience stat; S

    ....

    4HK tier IMO
    not talking about his overall ability

    in strategy, tactics, and intelligence tou isn't comparable to generals like ka rin, ri boku, or ou sen; is the argument
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    inclination isn't a factor in whether or not someone is worthy



    get that mess out of here

    better translation for ya. official afaik






    as ghm said it's tou's experience that makes him troublesome and it's what allows him to compete with them.



    of course you wouldn't

    was it not ou ki's statement that tou's abilities weren't below his that you were using as basis for your argument? hell, you're even arguing below that tou is comparable to him in strategy



    there are people that can compete with them, tou just isn't one

    tou's knowledge stat is below literally all of those generals, by far

    ou ki is the closest to him stat wise and it'd be a stretch to argue tou is even his equal tactically

    - - - Updated - - -



    not talking about his overall ability

    in strategy, tactics, and intelligence tou isn't comparable to generals like ka rin, ri boku, or ou sen; is the argument
    I think his natural knowledge combined with his experience means that he is. Plus...heck he doesn't need to engage in a battle of strategy. Tou can take to the field himself and one of the very best in that area also.

  20. #40
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Tokio;
    I think we need to get one thing straight if we are gonna continue this, what do you mean when you say someone is/isn't comparable? What kind of a gap/proximity are we talking about?

    I'm getting the impression that when you say comparable you mean an equal or something along the lines.

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