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Thread: Gyou'un vs Tou

  1. #1
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Gyou'un vs Tou

    10k vs 10k

    usual retinue

    location: plains

    both #1 vassal of a 6gg/3gh

    who wins?
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  2. #2
    Tou easy. Gyou'un is really strong but let's not go overboard here.

  3. #3
    Gyou'un is a long way away from proving he's on Tou's level. It won't be easy though.

  4. #4
    Tou mid-diffs him.

  5. #5
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    hm, what makes everyone so certain tou takes this?
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    hm, what makes everyone so certain tou takes this?
    Where is Gyou'un's hype, feats or portrayal to suggest he can take a Great General like Tou?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Where is Gyou'un's hype, feats or portrayal to suggest he can take a Great General like Tou?
    wouldn't say kingdom is an A > B > C type series when it comes to power level or character strengths

    hard to imagine tou coming out on top with absolute certainty against an instinctual general of his calibre

    for instance, kei sha had less going for him than gyou'un and was able to best ri boku a fair number of times in their simulations, as well as trap duke hyou

    that said, don't think something like tou's rank alone should warrant him getting the benefit of the doubt here
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  8. #8
    Tou is a GG level caliber general. Gyou'un at best is slightly better than 4 HK level.

    Tou high diff tops, mid at least.

  9. #9
    It's true that Kingdom isn't always A > B > C but Tou is literally a beast in every field. He wins.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    wouldn't say kingdom is an A > B > C type series when it comes to power level or character strengths

    hard to imagine tou coming out on top with absolute certainty against an instinctual general of his calibre

    for instance, kei sha had less going for him than gyou'un and was able to best ri boku a fair number of times in their simulations, as well as trap duke hyou

    that said, don't think something like tou's rank alone should warrant him getting the benefit of the doubt here
    It's not really based on his rank, it's more because we know how complete Tou is. I don't really see the angle where Gyou'un can beat him.

  11. #11
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    It's not really based on his rank, it's more because we know how complete Tou is. I don't really see the angle where Gyou'un can beat him.
    he's great, but he's not infallible or perfect. gyou'un likewise is equipped with everything tou has, except he has the advantage of his instinctual ability; which is something even the most adept commander/strategist in the series self-admittedly has trouble with.

    personally think there's potential for it to go either way.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    he's great, but he's not infallible or perfect. gyou'un likewise is equipped with everything tou has, except he has the advantage of his instinctual ability; which is something even the most adept commander/strategist in the series self-admittedly has trouble with.

    personally think there's potential for it to go either way.
    Depends on how highly you regard Gyou'un's instinct/tactics vs Tou's, or how you think a 1 on 1 fight would go. Ultimately I think the fact that Gyou'un is a stepping stone for 5 thousand commander Shin in a small scale, 10k vs 8k battle suggests he's a ways off Tou.

  13. #13
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Depends on how highly you regard Gyou'un's instinct/tactics vs Tou's, or how you think a 1 on 1 fight would go.
    thats where i feel the possibility for an upset is

    more times than not, confident gyou'un would have an edge over a conventional strategist like tou when it comes to tactics with how strong his intuition is, coupled with what he learned from rsj. was said that the more talented the strategist the deeper they'll be entrapped by his tactics, after all.

    but tou would more than likely be the superior of the two in a duel, albeit not by a huge margin. although a duel would probably be to tou's disadvantage unless he can finish his opponent quickly or it's towards the beginning of the entire engagement, as we saw with how he reacted to ran bi haku. would leave him unable to salvage any predicament his army is put in.

    Ultimately I think the fact that Gyou'un is a stepping stone for 5 thousand commander Shin in a small scale, 10k vs 8k battle suggests he's a ways off Tou.
    granted, shin's stepping stones have always been far ahead of him. like with rin ko, for example. gyou'un being shin's next step wouldn't necessarily imply he's closer to shin's level than he is to tou's.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    thats where i feel the possibility for an upset is

    more times than not, confident gyou'un would have an edge over a conventional strategist like tou when it comes to tactics with how strong his intuition is, coupled with what he learned from rsj. was said that the more talented the strategist the deeper they'll be entrapped by his tactics, after all.

    but tou would more than likely be the superior of the two in a duel, albeit not by a huge margin. although a duel would probably be to tou's disadvantage unless he can finish his opponent quickly or it's towards the beginning of the entire engagement, as we saw with how he reacted to ran bi haku. would leave him unable to salvage any predicament his army is put in.



    granted, shin's stepping stones have always been far ahead of him. like with rin ko, for example. gyou'un being shin's next step wouldn't necessarily imply he's closer to shin's level than he is to tou's.
    To be fair, I think Tou's tactics > Ten's, and I also don't see him being beaten by instincts because he isn't really restricted to being a table-top strategist, if that makes sense? Tou doesn't have to play the game that Ten was doing.

  15. #15
    Tou should win, Gyou'un hasn't proven himself to be a guy that can take Tou in a duel
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  16. #16
    Does this usual retinue include Rokuomi, Ryuukoku and Kanou? Because if so Tou could just charge in a straight line and win

    At any rate Tou is clearly much stronger, he'd be capable of matching Rinshoujo outright.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    Does this usual retinue include Rokuomi, Ryuukoku and Kanou? Because if so Tou could just charge in a straight line and win

    At any rate Tou is clearly much stronger, he'd be capable of matching Rinshoujo outright.
    yeah Tou with all his commanders in a 10k vs 10k fight is just overkill

  18. #18
    Gyou'un gets crushed against the Tou army.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokio View Post
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    thats where i feel the possibility for an upset is

    more times than not, confident gyou'un would have an edge over a conventional strategist like tou when it comes to tactics with how strong his intuition is, coupled with what he learned from rsj. was said that the more talented the strategist the deeper they'll be entrapped by his tactics, after all.
    That's a NLF Hara is fond of using, I don't think its meant to imply Gyouun can take on Riboku or Ousen or Rinshoujo who would obviously have answer to instincfual generals which Ten clearly didn't

  20. #20
    Pretty Flacko Jr. Tokio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    That's a NLF Hara is fond of using, I don't think its meant to imply Gyouun can take on Riboku or Ousen or Rinshoujo who would obviously have answer to instincfual generals which Ten clearly didn't
    sure, but doubt tou could compare with the intellect and tactics of those generals

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    and I also don't see him being beaten by instincts because he isn't really restricted to being a table-top strategist, if that makes sense? Tou doesn't have to play the game that Ten was doing.
    not sure, since table-top strategy is just a broader application of in-field tactics. there wouldn't be any difference between table-top strategy and any other form of strategy outside of range of command. unless you're saying he could just charge in and win with pure brawn like tenma.
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