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  1. #1

    Achilles vs Karna

    Both have Shirou Kotomine as a master.

    Location: Where Karna and Seig first fought.

    Starting distance: 10M away from each other.

    Who wins and what’s the dif?
    Last edited by W; 01-26-2018 at 05:17 AM.

  2. #2
    Karna wins with mid/high diff.

    Pretty sure it was stated multiple times that Karna was the strongest Red servant but Achilles was the only one who was near his level.

  3. #3
    Karna was never said to be stronger than Achilles and the latter has all the tools needed to beat him.

  4. #4
    Slayer of F.U.G. Kaiser's Avatar
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    Achilles have his cheat shield that could block Karna's NP.

    he'll probably win.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
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    Achilles have his cheat shield that could block Karna's NP.
    The shield could block Vasavi Shakti only after it was weakened by command spell enhanced Balmung and it still was completely destroyed (IIRC, Astolfo also got his hand wounded).

    On normal terms Akhilleus Kosmos is not enough to stop something like Vasavi Shakti.

  6. #6
    Sincerely Insincere Y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    The shield could block Vasavi Shakti only after it was weakened by command spell enhanced Balmung and it still was completely destroyed (IIRC, Astolfo also got his hand wounded).

    On normal terms Akhilleus Kosmos is not enough to stop something like Vasavi Shakti.
    sure it would, nothing suggests it wouldn't take VS. The only weakness it has are anti-world NPs and VS category is specifically listed in the things it can take.


  7. #7
    Balmung isn't comparable to Vasavi Shatki, any difference it would have made would be minimal.

    Kosmos was being used by Astolfo, who can't operate it the same way Achilles can.

  8. #8
    how did Shitrou become the master of 5 servants and not run out of mana, especially with Karna?

    The Glorious Fellowship of the Round Jacuzzi:
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Y View Post
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    sure it would, nothing suggests it wouldn't take VS. The only weakness it has are anti-world NPs and VS category is specifically listed in the things it can take.
    Except it didn't. Like I said, VS was weakened at first and yet the shield FAILED to completely protect it's user (the fact that it was destroyed and Astolfo's hand was wounded). Based on that, we know it's possible to break the shield if you have enough power even if the attack is not anti-world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    Balmung isn't comparable to Vasavi Shatki, any difference it would have made would be minimal.
    It is comperable when you'll use a command spell to boost Balmung to EX-rank which is exacly what happened. The clash with another EX-rank NP would definitely weaken it no matter how you look at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    Kosmos was being used by Astolfo, who can't operate it the same way Achilles can.
    The shield is just as good when used by Astolfo, there's nothing that would suggest otherwise. The only difference is that Achilles can use it offensively (shield bash), while Astolfo can't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    how did Shitrou become the master of 5 servants and not run out of mana, especially with Karna?
    I'm to lazy to find the quote, but if I remember it right he somehow conected himself to the grail and became essencially infinite mana battery.
    Last edited by Cichy; 01-26-2018 at 11:23 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    It is comperable when you'll use a command spell to boost Balmung to EX-rank which is exacly what happened. The clash with another EX-rank NP would definitely weaken it no matter how you look at it.
    At no point is Balmung Ex rank. It's not even proper A+ rank because Sieg cant utilize Siegfried's full power.

    The shield is just as good when used by Astolfo, there's nothing that would suggest otherwise. The only difference is that Achilles can use it offensively (shield bash), while Astolfo can't.
    Achilles' chariot is the whole point. The shield is no longer just a static wall. It's backed by the force of an NP stronger than the likes of Bellephoron and comparable to Gordius Wheel. It's Shirou+Medusa's tag team against Saber Alter on steroids.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    At no point is Balmung Ex rank. It's not even proper A+ rank because Sieg cant utilize Siegfried's full power.
    No, first of all, Siegs normal Balmung was A+, otherwise it wouldn't be able to equally clash with Brahmastra Kundala, which is also A+. In addition the novel suggest that in close distance it would overpower Clarent Blood Arthur (another A+ NP).

    We never got full translation of volume 5, but according to fan summarises the command spell made Balmung blast equal to Vasavi Shakti and the clash turns into "the battle of will". But since Karna was known for his indomitable will Balmung gets ultimately overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    Achilles' chariot is the whole point. The shield is no longer just a static wall. It's backed by the force of an NP stronger than the likes of Bellephoron and comparable to Gordius Wheel. It's Shirou+Medusa's tag team against Saber Alter on steroids.
    Was it said somewhere that Troias Tragoidia is stronger then Bellephoron? Honestly I don't remember anything like that.
    Last edited by Cichy; 01-26-2018 at 05:11 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    No, first of all, Siegs normal Balmung was A+, otherwise it wouldn't be able to equally clash with Brahmastra Kundala, which is also A+. In addition the novel suggest that in close distance it would overpower Clarent Blood Arthur (another A+ NP).
    Sieg needed two uses of Balmung to overpower Brahmastra, and the remainder of that energy wasn't even enough to scratch Karna. Sieg loses outright to Clarent in a beam-clash and take serious damage despite having Armor of Fafnir as an added defense. I don't know what you're going on about there.

    We never got full translation of volume 5, but according to fan summarises the command spell made Balmung blast equal to Vasavi Shakti and the clash turns into "the battle of will". But since Karna was known for his indomitable will Balmung gets ultimately overpowered.
    >Balmung
    >Equal to VS
    >It can barely handle Kundala
    >Still gets overpowered and would have killed Sieg if not for Astolfo.

    Yeah, no. I'll need some hard facts before buying a shred of this.

    Was it said somewhere that Troias Tragoidia is stronger then Bellephoron? Honestly I don't remember anything like that.
    Actually, it's not. I mixed their ranks. Gordius Wheel and Bellerophon are higher-ranked.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    Yeah, no. I'll need some hard facts before buying a shred of this.
    Why not? With a command spell it shouldn't be impossible to boost NP by one rank given all the crazy shit that those spells allow to do.

    The summary goes like this:

    When Sieg battles Lancer of Red, he is able to use Balmung together with Galvanism to great effect and is able to activate Balmung consecutively. After witnessing two back-to-back attacks on the level of Brahmastra Kundala, Lancer decides that there is only one way to win and uses Vasavi Shakti. Balmung would have been penetrated in only two seconds, but Sieg uses a command spell to boost it, allowing it to reach an equal footing with Vasavi Shakti. It becomes a battle of will from this point on, but since Sieg's opponent was Karna, who was famous for his indomitable will, Vasavi Shakti was able to break through Balmung.

  14. #14
    Sincerely Insincere Y's Avatar
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    EX is incompareably above A+ or even A++.

    In fact it's been said they're named EX because comparing them to normal ranks doesn't make sense to begin with.


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    Why not? With a command spell it shouldn't be impossible to boost NP by one rank given all the crazy shit that those spells allow to do.
    Why should we think they do? Command spells are extremely limited in use and have little-no quantifiable showings for power. Waver blew off all 3 on very specific commands (which makes them stronger) and Gilgamesh would have still humiliated Iskandar.

    Arash has one of the most powerful NPs period and he still needed Arthur's EXcalibur to take on Dendera, even after amping Stella with 3 command spells.

    I wanted an actual translation for that or a proper reference. I don't trust the wiki for anything unless I see those. It doesn't make sense contextually either. If Balmung was equal to Vasavi Shatki, it would have lost effectively all of it's power in that clash. Sieg shouldn't have even been damaged thanks to AoF, and Kosmos wouldn't have been broken by it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    Why should we think they do?
    Because the only translations we have say so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    Waver blew off all 3 on very specific commands (which makes them stronger) and Gilgamesh would have still humiliated Iskandar.
    Terrible example. Iskanders NP is a Reality Marble full of servants, not a swordbeam, so powering it up with command spells deasn't make it less resistant to Ea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    Arash has one of the most powerful NPs period and he still needed Arthur's EXcalibur to take on Dendera, even after amping Stella with 3 command spells.
    Yeah, but Dendera is pretty damn ridiculus. It's power was compared to a solar flare and those can release gigantic levels of energy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare
    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    I wanted an actual translation for that or a proper reference. I don't trust the wiki for anything unless I see those. It doesn't make sense contextually either.
    We don't have any proper translation, lol. All we have are some random summaries spread in the internet.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynig...n_volume_5_or/
    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    If Balmung was equal to Vasavi Shatki, it would have lost effectively all of it's power in that clash. Sieg shouldn't have even been damaged thanks to AoF, and Kosmos wouldn't have been broken by it.
    Not if you add the whole "Karna's strong will" thing that appearantly works as a power up for his attack.

    Even if we consider CS-powered Balmung weaker then EX then the point still stands.

    1. Vasavi Shakti was (to some unknown extend) weakened by the blast.
    2. The shield was still completely destroyed and Astolfo was slithly injured.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    Because the only translations we have say so?
    A translation that you can't back up and is contradicted on several points.

    Terrible example. Iskanders NP is a Reality Marble full of servants, not a swordbeam, so powering it up with command spells deasn't make it less resistant to Ea.
    Irrelevant. The point is command seals don't make your destructive power jump tiers. Not even bloody grails themselves can make a servant so powerful they dwarf their previous selves.

    Yeah, but Dendera is pretty damn ridiculus. It's power was compared to a solar flare and those can release gigantic levels of energy.
    Ridiculous, just like Vasavi Shatki is ridiculous. Doesn't change the fact that they are still EX-ranked NPs, and even CS-boosted NPs of Stella's caliber can't just match them at the drop of a hat.

    Not if you add the whole "Karna's strong will" thing that appearantly works as a power up for his attack.

    Even if we consider CS-powered Balmung weaker then EX then the point still stands.

    1. Vasavi Shakti was (to some unknown extend) weakened by the blast.
    Missed the point.

    If Balmung was equal to Vasavi Shatki, it would have lost effectively all of it's power in that clash. Sieg shouldn't have even been damaged thanks to AoF, and Kosmos wouldn't have been broken by it.
    If Karna's "strong will" gives VS such a boost that it blows through Balmung and still retains pretty much all of it's power, then that still means VS >>> Balmung, because Karna has no reason not do this every single time and definitely didn't hold back on Kosmos.

    2. The shield was still completely destroyed and Astolfo was slithly injured.
    It cracked. And the anime version (which is also canon) blocks VS completely.
    Last edited by Genbu; 01-30-2018 at 05:17 AM.

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