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  1. #1
    Say my name Ultra's Avatar
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    Making games too scum sided

    Can town's atrocious win rate in recent games be attributed to game mod favoritism towards the scum side?

    This is something I personally admit I have and do my best to keep in check as the game mod. I almost always go for the scum set ups first and prioritize making them cool and the town is a secondary consideration.

    But I think this could be a problem that contributes towards inactivity. Town wins are good for keeping up interest in the game I think because they allow a large amount of players to win.

    I think low town win rates discourage interest in playing, but also interest in being town and doing proper scum hunting. Which in turn perpetuates lower town win rates. This may be a factor in the latest trend of slow activity.

    So I want everyone else to weigh their opinions on this and encourage game mods to think about town roles and don't be afraid to make them just a little stronger or make scum roles slightly weaker

    And on the flip side, I think giving scum too much good shit makes it less likely to see interesting play on the scum side if the roles are doing too much of the work for them.
    Last edited by Ultra; 01-08-2018 at 09:27 AM.

  2. #2
    Chess Master Game Master's Avatar
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    Well... This is easily solved by making a few changes to how Mafia games can be posted on TMF.

    For example: In red bold text the creator of the game says whether or not the game at hand is scum sided or town sided. And in the general rules of the game state that you can't have more than 3 of the same type of games in a row (so no 4xScum sided or 4xTown sided)

    This should pretty much solve it. The winrate will never be 50-50, but this should help balance it out
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  3. #3
    Bravo Ragazzo Finalbeta's Avatar
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    Well in my Narnia game Town was very broken

    The only explanation in that game was lack of interest in playing / laziness / shitty town players

  4. #4
    Say my name Ultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Master View Post
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    Well... This is easily solved by making a few changes to how Mafia games can be posted on TMF.

    For example: In red bold text the creator of the game says whether or not the game at hand is scum sided or town sided. And in the general rules of the game state that you can't have more than 3 of the same type of games in a row (so no 4xScum sided or 4xTown sided)

    This should pretty much solve it. The winrate will never be 50-50, but this should help balance it out
    Well, stating that allows for a lot of weird angle shooting. It's also impossible to balance a game perfectly and most game mods might not even know if they're making something unfair or not.

    We should just all strive to be as fair as possible and remember that with everything else neutral scum still have a slight advantage, that's just how the game works.

  5. #5
    Cafe Conqueror X's Avatar
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    This has been something that has been on my mind for awhile; not scum being overpowered, but town being shit. Like, there are some players on this site, that are veteran players in Mafia, and when they're town, they're more interested in trolling or having fun for themselves which really dampers the game which affects all of the other players. I can't tell you the countless amount of times on this site (and I've been playing since the third game) where people literally do zero scum hunting and either troll, go on personal vendettas, are do things that will make only themselves laugh and enjoy the game. It borderline sabotages the game and makes it very difficult to play. I mean, look at Sin's Mystery Game. The reason we ended that game without making it past D2 was because everyone decided to spend their payloads in D1/N1 because it was fun and didn't even think about how it would affect the game. We can talk about proper hosting and balancing all we want, but until we get in check some of the shenanigans that take place on here, we'll never have super good games. On the other hand, TMF is supposed to be fun and more lax, but if we actually want Mafia to improve, we do need a bit of a crackdown.


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  6. #6
    Say my name Ultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
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    This has been something that has been on my mind for awhile; not scum being overpowered, but town being shit. Like, there are some players on this site, that are veteran players in Mafia, and when they're town, they're more interested in trolling or having fun for themselves which really dampers the game which affects all of the other players. I can't tell you the countless amount of times on this site (and I've been playing since the third game) where people literally do zero scum hunting and either troll, go on personal vendettas, are do things that will make only themselves laugh and enjoy the game. It borderline sabotages the game and makes it very difficult to play. I mean, look at Sin's Mystery Game. The reason we ended that game without making it past D2 was because everyone decided to spend their payloads in D1/N1 because it was fun and didn't even think about how it would affect the game. We can talk about proper hosting and balancing all we want, but until we get in check some of the shenanigans that take place on here, we'll never have super good games. On the other hand, TMF is supposed to be fun and more lax, but if we actually want Mafia to improve, we do need a bit of a crackdown.
    This is a small component but Cormag's game was also super swingy. How people use their roles isn't so much important as how they contribute to the game.

    But you do have a point there - I think most players when town try to post reads or at least game solve a little but there's a tendency to either post a lot of fluff or post little to nothing at all

    Maybe FB is right and we do need blood from outside the forum, lol

  7. #7
    I guess it is difficult finding the proper balance. The last game I hosted was quickly thrown together and basically just me experimenting outside of traditional roles so it didn't end up too balanced in the end since the ways the abilities interacted created more deaths than I envisioned.

    The One Piece game I hosted @Ultra; actually gave me feedback that the scum team should have been given more to work with since they had pretty traditional roles which hurt their chances in a role claiming game, yet by the final phase a town victory became impossible and the lynch was basically to decide whether the independent or the mafia would be walking away the victor.

  8. #8
    Bravo Ragazzo Finalbeta's Avatar
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    The trick is to make the most powerful role Town

    Then balancing from this starting point will be easy

  9. #9
    Chess Master Game Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra View Post
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    Well, stating that allows for a lot of weird angle shooting. It's also impossible to balance a game perfectly and most game mods might not even know if they're making something unfair or not.

    We should just all strive to be as fair as possible and remember that with everything else neutral scum still have a slight advantage, that's just how the game works.
    Maybe stating "game will be favoring one faction" and never stating which faction that is?

    And only the Mod of the section would know the actual favoritism done in the game. Or in order to allow the host to play the game (since he can't play if he knows the internals of it), you can make a list of "trust worthy" people who keep track with the mod of the section.

    It's more work for sure, but should solve this problem
    Stay a while, and listen!

    I am the great mighty poo, and Im going to throw my shit at you.

    Get over here!

    The Game Master, here to create amazing games for everyone!


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Game Master View Post
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    Maybe stating "game will be favoring one faction" and never stating which faction that is?

    And only the Mod of the section would know the actual favoritism done in the game. Or in order to allow the host to play the game (since he can't play if he knows the internals of it), you can make a list of "trust worthy" people who keep track with the mod of the section.

    It's more work for sure, but should solve this problem
    A mod shouldn't aim to create a game that favors one faction over the other.

  11. #11
    See you in the desert... Makenzye's Avatar
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    I've always got the impression TMF is just really bad at being town.

  12. #12
    Chess Master Game Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    A mod shouldn't aim to create a game that favors one faction over the other.
    The idea here is that you can't create a perfectly balanced game. So after the mod makes the game and evaluates the game he made, he should realize if it favors one faction or the other.

    That's why my solution is basically accepting that, and try to work around it by balancing the number of similarly favored games.

    Not saying they should make it unbalanced intentionally (unless it's a troll or pure fun game) but most games won't be balanced.
    Stay a while, and listen!

    I am the great mighty poo, and Im going to throw my shit at you.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Game Master View Post
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    The idea here is that you can't create a perfectly balanced game. So after the mod makes the game and evaluates the game he made, he should realize if it favors one faction or the other.

    That's why my solution is basically accepting that, and try to work around it by balancing the number of similarly favored games.

    Not saying they should make it unbalanced intentionally (unless it's a troll or pure fun game) but most games won't be balanced.
    If it's a good setup the mod should be able to look it over and think that it looks pretty even on both sides. If the mod is able to see that it skews to one side just by looking at the setup then they should strengthen the other side a bit or weaken whatever is causing things to skew to one team's favor.

    The power balance is also something that can swing with each event, the town can look to be in a favorable position one phase but then lose a power role and suddenly the mafia may be in a better position or Vice Versa, there's too many variables to see how a game is going to go and who is going to have the advantage before you start it up or even see who landed what roles.
    Last edited by Great Potato; 01-08-2018 at 04:32 PM.

  14. #14
    Chess Master Game Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    If it's a good setup the mod should be able to look it over and think that it looks pretty even on both sides. If the mod is able to see that it skews to one side just by looking at the setup then they should strengthen the other side a bit or weaken whatever is causing things to skew to one team's favor.

    The power balance is also something that can swing with each event, the town can look to be in a favorable position one phase but then lose a power role and suddenly the mafia may be in a better position or Vice Versa, there's too many variables to see how a game is going to go and who is going to have the advantage before you start it up or even see who landed what roles.
    Well... Then what do you suggest? Leave things as they are and implement some sort of "behind the scenes" system that only mods know? Or Just leave things as they are?
    Stay a while, and listen!

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  15. #15
    Cafe Conqueror X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra View Post
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    This is a small component but Cormag's game was also super swingy. How people use their roles isn't so much important as how they contribute to the game.

    But you do have a point there - I think most players when town try to post reads or at least game solve a little but there's a tendency to either post a lot of fluff or post little to nothing at all

    Maybe FB is right and we do need blood from outside the forum, lol
    I mean, you just shot @White; without even a second thought, so you tell me, is that good scum hunting?


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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
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    I mean, you just shot @White; without even a second thought, so you tell me, is that good scum hunting?
    Ive said my piece on Ultra in the is this section dead thread. Im done with the kid now, I really cant be bothered with him anymore. Hes a piece of shit

  17. #17
    Cafe Conqueror X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    Ive said my piece on Ultra in the is this section dead thread. Im done with the kid now, I really cant be bothered with him anymore. Hes a piece of shit
    I feel sorry for you. It wasn't a cool move and it doesn't help this section grow whatsoever; it's actually counterproductive.


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  18. #18
    Say my name Ultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X View Post
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    I mean, you just shot @White; without even a second thought, so you tell me, is that good scum hunting?
    It was probably going to happen anyway, but I should have let him speak his piece at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    Ive said my piece on Ultra in the is this section dead thread. Im done with the kid now, I really cant be bothered with him anymore. Hes a piece of shit
    On the other hand, you're a whiny bitch who needs to get over himself, I acknowledge it was unfair to you, but it's just a game. Instead of crying and talking shit feel free to have back at me. The point is ultimately to have fun, I squashed that out for you but it's all in the game.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra View Post
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    It was probably going to happen anyway, but I should have let him speak his piece at least.



    On the other hand, you're a whiny bitch who needs to get over himself, I acknowledge it was unfair to you, but it's just a game. Instead of crying and talking shit feel free to have back at me. The point is ultimately to have fun, I squashed that out for you but it's all in the game.
    Get over myself? I need to get over myself? Im not the one who just ruined a mafia game for another player because Im a massive troll and thinks being a dick will get people to like him.

    Yeah sure whatever

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