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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    I did not imply Mouten singlehandedly crushed Kisui and Batei on the first day- that wouldn't have been possible with his numbers, but it is true Mouten strategically ran circles around them both in terms of easily luring them into Makou's trap and turning around Riboku's killstroke into a positive outcome (which was so in Zhao's favour that it required Kisui and Batei to completely fall into Mouten's pace for that to happen).

    It's been roughly even since then, but portrayal greatly favours Mouten given his numerical disadvantage and Hara choosing to show Kisui's HQ in a state of confusion and dissaray whilr Moutwn calmly maintains a stalemate through his strategy.
    He was able to run circles because he knew he had a 20 thousand-strong surprise attack of Makou soldiers arriving at a time and method of Ousen's choosing though. That wasn't Mouten vs Kisui, it was Mouten + Makou with Ousen's strategy vs Kisui and Batei (you could argue + the Riboku strategy).

    I do agree that Mouten's portrayal has been better, but there's been no making a fool of.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    He needs a strong army that is > Kisui's Rigan army. And you can be sure soon Mouten will be in problems. Plus since when do we use Kisui and Batei as characters to prove a point.

    And as you said yourself, he needed Shin his help. End of story. Without Shin, Mouten and Gaka Ka Unit would be Game Over now. As he admitted himself actually.
    There's no evidence Makou's army is superior to Kisui, especially since Kisui inspires incredible morale and vigour in his Rigan men while Mouten's a new guy, and yes, we do use 'characters like Kisui and Batei' as evidence especially given how much trouble they gave Shin in Kokuyou, and you brought up the Batei strawman anyway.

    That's laughably poor logic. Is Shin's Duke's equal.since he needed him to battle Keisha (and in that battle Shin displayed far more initiative and agency, actually saving the Duke from Keisha)? Ousen needs his deputies and generals and the Qin newgen or he would be annihilated, vice-versa for Reebok. The left wing situation was seriously stacked against Mouten, so he needed more soldiers/commandeds to counter the one-sided offensive. It speaks nothing of Shin's relation to Mouten or whatever argunent you were attempting.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    There's no evidence Makou's army is superior to Kisui, especially since Kisui inspires incredible morale and vigour in his Rigan men while Mouten's a new guy, and yes, we do use 'characters like Kisui and Batei' as evidence especially given how much trouble they gave Shin in Kokuyou, and you brought up the Batei strawman anyway.

    That's laughably poor logic. Is Shin's Duke's equal.since he needed him to battle Keisha (and in that battle Shin displayed far more initiative and agency, actually saving the Duke from Keisha)? Ousen needs his deputies and generals and the Qin newgen or he would be annihilated, vice-versa for Reebok. The left wing situation was seriously stacked against Mouten, so he needed more soldiers/commandeds to counter the one-sided offensive. It speaks nothing of Shin's relation to Mouten or whatever argunent you were attempting.
    You are the one with laughable logic here and I am not even sure if you are serious or not. Everything you are telling me that should go against Shin his development can be said the same about Mouten yet you refuse to see that yourself. This can not be that harsh, pal.

    What would Mouten have done without Shin here? As he admitted himself!


    Shin has achieved results on his own, with the death of dangerous enemies as result. Now please tell me Mouten his results up till now. He is the only one with NONE. Shin and Ouhon do have. Those are facts.
    Last edited by Duke; 01-11-2018 at 03:59 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    There's no evidence Makou's army is superior to Kisui, especially since Kisui inspires incredible morale and vigour in his Rigan men while Mouten's a new guy, and yes, we do use 'characters like Kisui and Batei' as evidence especially given how much trouble they gave Shin in Kokuyou, and you brought up the Batei strawman anyway.

    That's laughably poor logic. Is Shin's Duke's equal.since he needed him to battle Keisha (and in that battle Shin displayed far more initiative and agency, actually saving the Duke from Keisha)? Ousen needs his deputies and generals and the Qin newgen or he would be annihilated, vice-versa for Reebok. The left wing situation was seriously stacked against Mouten, so he needed more soldiers/commandeds to counter the one-sided offensive. It speaks nothing of Shin's relation to Mouten or whatever argunent you were attempting.
    I think that’s a bad comparison tbh because The HSU struggle against Ryuutou (In Terrain they weren’t familiar with) whose now dead, toyed with Batei and never face Kisui. We will never know how Mouten would’ve done if Ryuutou was alive.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    You are the one with laughable logic here and I am not even sure if you are serious or not. Everything you are telling me that should go against Shin his development can be said the same about Mouten yet you refuse to see that yourself. This can not be that harsh, pal.

    What would Mouten have done without Shin here? As he admitted himself!


    Shin has achieved results on his own, with the death of dangerous enemies as result. Now please tell me Mouten his results up till now. He is the only one with NONE. Shin and Ouhon do have. Those are facts.
    And Ousen would have lost the war if not for Mouten, Riboku would not have been able to imbalance the right wing without Kisui- this is a war manga with armies and a chain of command, to attempt to discredit Mouten's strategy because he used Shin in a onesided situation is laughable. In the first place, Shin would not have slain Fuuki without Heki and Kanou, he would not have slain Rinko were it not for Mouten's strategy and Ouhon's advice, he would not have slain Reiou if not for Ouhon's strategy, he would not have slain Keisha without Kanki exposing him to begin with. This is a war manga involving thousands of personnel at any one time, you are not getting anywhere with this line of argument, plain and simple. To analyse their calibre as commanders requires closer examination of the situation, strategies and progression of the conflict, something you have completely avoided in favour of shallow blanket statements.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    And Ousen would have lost the war if not for Mouten
    Just need to read half a sentence. And I can already destroy everything you said with the following:

    How many wars would have been lost if not for Shin? Hell, an entire State even.




    Your turn.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Now please tell me Mouten his results up till now. He is the only one with NONE. Shin and Ouhon do have. Those are facts.
    Saving entire Kingdom from destruction? Because you know, if he didn't save Moubu in time, then Coalition War would be lost and Qin would be no more.

    In Sanyou Arc it was said that he was the only one from monster trio that could open a path through Rinko's soldiers. During this battle he also was somewhat commander-in-chief of all three units.

    In current arc he also pretty much saved entire war. Saying he doesn't have any results is just being blind or ignoring facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Mouten is martially too weak to be considered a GG so it has to come from his intelligence but that is by far not on GG level either YET.
    I wouldn't be so sure. His recent tactical feats could already be considered GG-level (reading through Ousen, making plan to save a situation that was considered hopeless, effectively dealing with Batei and Kisui with less numbers). Plus him casualy taking control of someone else's army is at least general-level leadership feat.

    Also his martial stat is 89, equal to Gokei and only one point behind Batei and SHK.

    To sum up:







    Last edited by Cichy; 01-11-2018 at 09:32 PM.

  8. #48
    I miss woikurus for shit like this honestly

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Just need to read half a sentence. And I can already destroy everything you said with the following:

    How many wars would have been lost if not for Shin? Hell, an entire State even.




    Your turn.
    Hardly, because you reading half a sentence meant you comically missed the entire point, nevermind talk about destroying anyone's arguments.

    Actually come up with a response this time.
    Last edited by Tenma; 01-12-2018 at 05:25 AM.

  10. #50
    i think this discussion will not head anywhere. but right now as things stand and as indicated by the manga mouten has already gained the acumen of being a general. @Duke; we are not saying that shin is less capable but if you were shk and told to promote only one of the two to be a general as per the current chapter, who would you choose? what most of us are saying is that yes shin is a strong lad but he has a tad bit of growing to go. for me i think you can become easily become a great general by strategy alone or if i may say it is easy to supplement strength than it is the acumen for strategy or instincts. e.g we have never seen kanki in a serious fight but he has zenou for that. but if you have an army of gaimou with no strategist you are bound to be slaughtered eg pre karyoten 1000 man hsu. but we are also acknowledging that shin is a year or two younger than both mouten and ouhon with no prior military training whatsoever which makes him awesome that he has reached thus far using his own merits.
    Last edited by Baragan; 01-12-2018 at 07:51 AM.

  11. #51
    Mouten is clearly ahead as of today but he's also the only one of the two to have time to shine this arc.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Baragan View Post
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    i think this discussion will not head anywhere.
    Well.. The whole premise of the thread is stupid anyway.. It definitely won't be able to head anywhere.

    It's like saying sugar is superior to salt because salt isn't sweet lmao

  13. #53
    ... until GP recovers. Thief's Avatar
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    sugar is superior to salt because salt isn't sweet


  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by DreX View Post
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    sugar is superior to salt because salt isn't sweet
    but u can survive without sugar but not without salt

  15. #55
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    bump

    any changed opinions?
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  16. #56
    Even. Really, Hara is going to have the 3 of them be pretty even for most of the arc until perhaps the climax where Shin may do something extra.

    A lot of what Mouten is doing is off paneled and not spectacular though so it's easier to praise Shin/Ouhon for what they're doing. He's on his own leading an army which has had most of its main players wiped out.

  17. #57
    Create a poll about who's gonna end this campaign with the biggest achievements among the trio, let's see what people think

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