Comparing Mouten to Shin.

[Marcusx8]

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The fact that Mouten blocked/dodged a 10 bows arrows and parried the bakuya sword guy and came out alive of battles where he was on the frontlines as the main target because he's a commander and where the tables were turned against him make him a good/great fighter at least better than 99% the soldiers we see in the story.

The first one was Shin and yes Mouten parry Kouyoku sword but he didn’t parry or fight against his Bakuya sword.

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I can kind of see your argument and, based on what I've seen, people def ridicule Shin a lot on this forum (he was kind of a clown in some areas of this arc tho lmao) but Shin kinda relies on brute force too much.

He's outclassed by nearly everyone worth salt in this manga in the intelligence department while Mouten can still hold his own against many people worth salt in the strength department. I agree that Mouten couldn't have completed some of his fets without Shin and vice versa, but I would say that Mouten is a more well rounded and balanced commander than Shin is.

I will give Shin credit that he has gotten much smarter since the beginning of the manga. Idk how reliable the stats are, but I'm pretty sure Shin's intelligence was like 40 at the start of the manga and now it's 74.

Shin went up 30 points when he was trained for the first time under Ouki (40 to 70) But he only has gone up four points since. So I think Shin just don’t care about learning strategy since he got Ten. The only way Shin will learn strategy if a General he likes (fingers crossed it’s Ousen) try/offer to teach him.

[Dai Don Dedede]

Shitty Mouten, couldn't even get his sword to not break when he was hit by Kanmei

Back to the topic, it's true that Mouten does not possess the same measure of martial might as Shin and that he will probably need someone strong to be around when he needs to take on someone above people like Rinbukun, for example it's true that he needed Shin's and Ouhon's strength to take Rinko out. However the way Mouten needs Shin and the way Shin needs Mouten are very different. While Mouten needs a strong subordinate to deal the finishing blow to a strong duelist, Shin needs a capable commander to oversee the battle and direct him appropriately so that he can put his strength to use efficiently. That's why Mouten is generally seen as better than Shin, they each have their skills but Mouten is fit to be a real general, Shin is a lesser Gaimou for now.
Btw, Kanki, Ousen, Ko Shou, Rinshoujo, Gokei, Reiou, Gekishin, Riboku are all excellent general that are either weaker than Mouten or have already defeated strong opponents without having to fight by themselves which would bypass his relative "weakness" anyway.

[Drive]

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Shin went up 30 points when he was trained for the first time under Ouki (40 to 70) But he only has gone up four points since. So I think Shin just don’t care about learning strategy since he got Ten.

Huh, that's interesting. I don't recall him really learning anything from Ouki or anyone for that matter yet his intel just increased by 30 points??

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The only way Shin will learn strategy if a General he likes (fingers crossed it’s Ousen) try/offer to teach him.

[gn_x00]

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Huh, that's interesting. I don't recall him really learning anything from Ouki or anyone for that matter yet his intel just increased by 30 points??

It's the off panel training to unite the tribes right before Bayou

[Duke]

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The first one was Shin and yes Mouten parry Kouyoku sword but he didn’t parry or fight against his Bakuya sword.

That too, but Mouten his martial feats are that low compared to Shin that I did not even think about mentioning these facts. However, happy you did. These so called feats used are kinda lame indeed for someone who wants to become a Great General. Mouten was sweating heavily too versus Kouyoku. Pretty sure he has no chance in a 1 vs 1. Mid to high diff victory for Kouyoku.

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Shitty Mouten, couldn't even get his sword to not break when he was hit by Kanmei

Back to the topic, it's true that Mouten does not possess the same measure of martial might as Shin and that he will probably need someone strong to be around when he needs to take on someone above people like Rinbukun, for example it's true that he needed Shin's and Ouhon's strength to take Rinko out. However the way Mouten needs Shin and the way Shin needs Mouten are very different. While Mouten needs a strong subordinate to deal the finishing blow to a strong duelist, Shin needs a capable commander to oversee the battle and direct him appropriately so that he can put his strength to use efficiently. That's why Mouten is generally seen as better than Shin, they each have their skills but Mouten is fit to be a real general, Shin is a lesser Gaimou for now.
Btw, Kanki, Ousen, Ko Shou, Rinshoujo, Gokei, Reiou, Gekishin, Riboku are all excellent general that are either weaker than Mouten or have already defeated strong opponents without having to fight by themselves which would bypass his relative "weakness" anyway.

That is your own opinion, yet you state it as a fact. What makes you think Mouten can be called a commander and Shin not, while Shin has commanded 10 000 troops before. And not just normal soldiers, but Hyou soldiers. Top of the class and way more proud than Makou's men.

Again, both need each other so far so both are on the same level when it comes to reaching great general level. Mouten needs to improve martially or at least have a very strong dude in his army. Shin needs to develop his instincts. Which he HAS. Once his instincts are really kicking in and he uses it more in stead of acting like a hotheaded barbarian... He will outclass Mouten by quite a bit.

[adage]

Well generally people out here prefer strategy and tactics so naturally they are more interested in the intelligent commanders in the manga and tend to put off other types of commanders, I mean you would think for strategy fanatics they would make logical comparison's were necessary and come to unbiased conclusive answers.

And also just to add on I think most of us are reading the manga and fail to adhere to certain truths that the manga has provided concerning the types of commanders or generals that one can see in the battlefield in the confines of the manga, and rather draw our opinions from what we know of the world we live in which in turn affects our judgement of characters in the confines of the manga.

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Well generally people out here prefer strategy and tactics so naturally they are more interested in the intelligent commanders in the manga and tend to put off other types of commanders, I mean you would think for strategy fanatics they would make logical comparison's were necessary and come to unbiased conclusive answers.

And also just to add on I think most of us are reading the manga and fail to adhere to certain truths that the manga has provided concerning the types of commanders or generals that one can see in the battlefield in the confines of the manga, and rather draw our opinions from what we know of the world we live in which in turn affects our judgement of characters in the confines of the manga.

[DreX]

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Shitty Mouten, couldn't even get his sword to not break when he was hit by Kanmei

Back to the topic, it's true that Mouten does not possess the same measure of martial might as Shin and that he will probably need someone strong to be around when he needs to take on someone above people like Rinbukun, for example it's true that he needed Shin's and Ouhon's strength to take Rinko out. However the way Mouten needs Shin and the way Shin needs Mouten are very different. While Mouten needs a strong subordinate to deal the finishing blow to a strong duelist, Shin needs a capable commander to oversee the battle and direct him appropriately so that he can put his strength to use efficiently. That's why Mouten is generally seen as better than Shin, they each have their skills but Mouten is fit to be a real general, Shin is a lesser Gaimou for now.
Btw, Kanki, Ousen, Ko Shou, Rinshoujo, Gokei, Reiou, Gekishin, Riboku are all excellent general that are either weaker than Mouten or have already defeated strong opponents without having to fight by themselves which would bypass his relative "weakness" anyway.

This.

It could be said that they both complement each other's weak points. Having said that, Shin lacks far more in his brain than what Mouten lacks in his brawn, equivalently, which gives him an undeniable advantage. I'd easily argue that Mouten has acquired far more qualities, that qualifies to a balanced GG, than Shin

[Duke]

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This.

It could be said that they both complement each other's weak points. Having said that, Shin lacks far more in his brain than what Mouten lacks in his brawn, equivalently, which gives him an undeniable advantage. I'd easily argue that Mouten has already far more acquired, that qualities to a balanced GG, than Shin.

Not one notable kill with tactics either. Where Shin has several BIG kills on his conto. Do not give a shit it was all martially... He did it and made a name. His kill vs Mangoku though was not only martially, but also Duke-stylish with instincts. That impressive, Mouten comes not even close. With anything he has ever done.


If Mouten for example has to fight Gaimou and his unit, he would make zero chances to defeat them where the HSU does. And like that I can give many examples. Mouten is martially too weak to be considered a GG so it has to come from his intelligence but that is by far not on GG level either YET.

[DreX]

Somehow I feel like I need to review every post since this MacBook changes the cursor's position as I'm typing.

Let me rephrase this since you might have misunderstood me
I'm saying that Mouten has acquired far more qualities, that qualifies to a balanced GG, than Shin. Although his brain is slightly at a higher bar compared to his martial strength, both are, at least, mutually on track to their destiny. Shin, on the other side, has an upper hand in martial strength but his tactical view is tragically lacking that there's a mismatch between his -what I'd call- GG promoting qualities. Eventually, he might end up reaching the rank of a GG before fully evolving all these features, that Renpa spoke of btw, at least not of one that will be the greatest GG under the heavens. Like Gaimou

Mouten is not too strong but is not weak either, he's as good as he should be.

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Not one notable kill with tactics either. Where Shin has several BIG kills on his conto. Do not give a shit it was all martially... He did it and made a name. His kill vs Mangoku though was not only martially, but also Duke-stylish with instincts. That impressive, Mouten comes not even close. With anything he has ever done.


If Moutenfor example has to fight Gaimou and his unit, he would make zero chances to defeat them where the HSU does. And like that I can give many examples. Mouten is martially too weak to be considered a GG so it has to come from his intelligence but that is by far not on GG level either YET.

based on what did you pull this shit out of your ass?

1. We're talking about Shin and Mouten as individuals and not as a unit, HSU has what it takes to cover up on Shin's idiocy and it obviously has the upper martial and numerical advantage so

2. It's not Gaimou for example, Gaimou's unit might be the only one sufficient here as an example because their GG is a complete prick, most of the GGs of Gaimou's status are stronger than Mouten in both aspects, actually.

3. When did i say that Mouten is on a GG level now, you kidding?

[Duke]

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Somehow I feel like I need to review every post since this MacBook changes the cursor's position as I'm typing.

Let me rephrase this since you might have misunderstood me
I'm saying that Mouten has acquired far more qualities, that qualifies to a balanced GG, than Shin. Although his brain is slightly at a higher bar compared to his martial strength, both are, at least, mutually on track to their destiny. Shin, on the other side, has an upper hand in martial strength but his tactical view is tragically lacking that there's a mismatch between his -what I'd call- GG promoting qualities. Eventually, he might end up reaching the rank of a GG before fully evolving all these features, that Renpa spoke of btw, at least not of one that will be the greatest GG under the heavens. Like Gaimou

Mouten is not too strong but is not weak either, he's as good as he should be.

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based on what did you pull this shit out of your ass?

1. We're talking about Shin and Mouten as individuals and not as a unit, HSU has what it takes to cover up on Shin's idiocy and it obviously has the upper martial and numerical advantage so

2. It's not Gaimou for example, Gaimou's unit might be the only one sufficient here as an example because their GG is a complete prick, most of the GGs of Gaimou's status are stronger than Mouten in both aspects, actually.

3. When did i say that Mouten is on a GG level now, you kidding?

Again, why do you ignore the fact that Shin has done kills on HIS own, where we are still waiting on Mouten his first reasonable kill, notable... Coming up with tactics because you are a rich kid who got an amazing teacher is truly not that impressive. I prefer current Shin over current Mouten a hundred times, also seeing the potential Shin has compared to Mouten who will not grow martially that much where Shin can develop his instincts on an insane level, almost Duke-style. Hence the Duke took care of him.

[DreX]

Not only his strength but also his tactics are yet to evolve, actually. He's still got a way to go.

For Shin, the way things are turning out, I assume he'll evolve to an instinctual general and will still have Ten on his ass as a GG.

[Duke]

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Not only his strength but also his tactics are yet to evolve, actually. He's still got a way to go.

For Shin, the way things are turning out, I assume he'll evolve to an instinctual general and will still have Ten on his ass as a GG.

Proving the OP here. You condemn Shin for using Ten but Mouten will need a martial power beast if he wants to become a GG. So both need someone at the moment.

[DreX]

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Again, why do you ignore the fact that Shin has done kills on HIS own, where we are still waiting on Mouten his first reasonable kill, notable... Coming up with tactics because you are rich kid is truly not that impressive. I prefer current Shin over current Mouten a hundred times, also seeing the potential Shin has compared to Mouten who will not grow martially that much where Shin can develop his instincts on an insane level, almost Duke-style. Hence the Duke took care of him.

I don't see the correlation between Shin developing into an instinctual general and him being better than Mouten. The fact that you prefer him is completely subjective and I do understand your perspective, but saying that Mouten is a more promising future GG, atm, sounds more credible to me. The current HSU will develop into a fucking-up specialist without Kyou Kai and Ten, just like before Ten arrived, his instincts in now a mere bonus and can't be exclusively relied on, yet.

Oh and tbf, I personally like Shin more than Mouten; his monstrous alpha strength, his immense agility, his enhanced healing ability, his hype, enthusiasm, high moral, courage, pride, coolness. It makes him likable for a protagonist but these are all arbitrary features this are, but indirectly, promoting him to be a GG, typical of his own.

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Proving the OP here. You condemn Shin for using Ten but Mouten will need a martial power beast if he wants to become a GG. So both need someone at the moment.

As I said, Shin has an intelligence of a monkey atm, while Mouten isn't that too shabby with sword tbh.

[Duke]

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I don't see the correlation between Shin developing into an instinctual general and him being better than Mouten. The fact that you prefer him is completely subjective and I do understand your perspective, but saying that Mouten is a more promising future GG, atm, sounds more credible to me. The current HSU will develop into a fucking-up specialist without Kyou Kai and Ten, just like before Ten arrived, his instincts in now a mere bonus and can't be exclusively relied on, yet.

tbf, I personally like Shin more than Mouten, his monstrous alpha strength, his immense agility, his enhanced healing ability, his hype, enthusiasm, high moral, courage, pride, coolness. It makes him a not too shabby for a protagonist but these are all arbitrary features this are, but indirectly, promoting him to be a GG, typical of his own.

I can see what you are telling here and I even agree. But where I can SEE that, people here do not see the same for Mouten who needs help all the time too from powerfull people... And Mouten has still not claim the life of anyone notable either, again. He is just as far from being a true GG as Shin is. Same goes for cocky Ouhon although I do believe he is a little bit closer.

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As I said, Shin has an intelligence of a monkey atm, while Mouten isn't that too shabby with sword tbh.

Batei has the brains of a monkey yet Mouten and his entire unit were running away like chickens from this monkey. Great General potential right there, hey.

[Tenma]

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Batei has the brains of a monkey yet Mouten and his entire unit were running away like chickens from this monkey. Great General potential right there, hey.

...Considering Mouten has been continually making a fool of both Kisui and Batei every step of the way, this is either a case of terrible reading comprehension or intentional ignorance

[Duke]

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...Considering Mouten has been continually making a fool of both Kisui and Batei every step of the way, this is either a case of terrible reading comprehension or intentional ignorance

In which he needed Shin.


Are you seeing what I am doing here.



Mouten needs others just as many times.

[Tenma]

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In which he needed Shin.


Are you seeing what I am doing here.



Mouten needs others just as many times.

He didn't need Shin's help to lure Kisui into Ousen's trap nor to continue dominance over Kisui and Batei on the following days despite commanding an unfamiliar army

He needed Shin's help because Makou's fuckup set back the left wing to such an extent Mouten needed every man he could get. There isn't an issue with Shin working with Mouten, the issue stsms that both such occasions had Mouten giving out the plans/orders while Shin carried them out like a subordinate instead of an equal, as Shin cannot utilise his instinct reliably enough to give input or valuable advice like a high-tier instinctual general would. At this point Shin's instinct should be honed to be close to Keisha's level like Ouhon and Mouten's strategy have surpassed HKs..yet, we are presented a brute-forcer more similar to figures Shin himself abhors (Gaimou or Houken).

[Kanki]

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...Considering Mouten has been continually making a fool of both Kisui and Batei every step of the way, this is either a case of terrible reading comprehension or intentional ignorance

I think this is Kisui underestimation tbh, or failing to see what's actually happened over there. Kisui and Batei struggled on day 1 because of Mouten's tactics combined with Ousen's strategy which was delivered by his (supposed) greatest offensive force in Makou. Even then, Kisui refused to do any major moves because ass-pull-plot required Kisui to sit and wait for Riboku to attack rather than do anything himself, which was a genuine Zhao tactic as opposed to some rescue mission from the latter.

Since then, it's been even. No one has been made a fool of. Whether you think Kisui has been impressive or not will I guess depend on how powerful you think Mouten is at this stage.

[Tenma]

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I think this is Kisui underestimation tbh, or failing to see what's actually happened over there. Kisui and Batei struggled on day 1 because of Mouten's tactics combined with Ousen's strategy which was delivered by his (supposed) greatest offensive force in Makou. Even then, Kisui refused to do any major moves because ass-pull-plot required Kisui to sit and wait for Riboku to attack rather than do anything himself, which was a genuine Zhao tactic as opposed to some rescue mission from the latter.

Since then, it's been even. No one has been made a fool of. Whether you think Kisui has been impressive or not will I guess depend on how powerful you think Mouten is at this stage.

I did not imply Mouten singlehandedly crushed Kisui and Batei on the first day- that wouldn't have been possible with his numbers, but it is true Mouten strategically ran circles around them both in terms of easily luring them into Makou's trap and turning around Riboku's killstroke into a positive outcome (which was so in Zhao's favour that it required Kisui and Batei to completely fall into Mouten's pace for that to happen).

It's been roughly even since then, but portrayal greatly favours Mouten given his numerical disadvantage and Hara choosing to show Kisui's HQ in a state of confusion and dissaray whilr Moutwn calmly maintains a stalemate through his strategy.

[Duke]

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He didn't need Shin's help to lure Kisui into Ousen's trap nor to continue dominance over Kisui and Batei on the following days despite commanding an unfamiliar army

He needed Shin's help because Makou's fuckup set back the left wing to such an extent Mouten needed every man he could get. There isn't an issue with Shin working with Mouten, the issue stsms that both such occasions had Mouten giving out the plans/orders while Shin carried them out like a subordinate instead of an equal, as Shin cannot utilise his instinct reliably enough to give input or valuable advice like a high-tier instinctual general would. At this point Shin's instinct should be honed to be close to Keisha's level like Ouhon and Mouten's strategy have surpassed HKs..yet, we are presented a brute-forcer more similar to figures Shin himself abhors (Gaimou or Houken).

He needs a strong army that is > Kisui's Rigan army. And you can be sure soon Mouten will be in problems. Plus since when do we use Kisui and Batei as characters to prove a point when it comes to strength or intelligence. They have proven even less than Mouten up to now.

And as you said yourself, he needed Shin his help. End of story. Without Shin, Mouten and Gaka Ka Unit would be Game Over now. As he admitted himself actually.