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  1. #1

    Comparing Mouten to Shin.

    Yes, I know that I will get the fury over me now from some members and yes, I know Mouten is well liked on the forum. I might be a new active member here, but I have been reading this forum since the Coalition War chapters were translated, so that is like... 3 years.

    First of all I would like to point out that I do like Mouten as a character, he is even one of my favorite younger characters but he is most definitely overrated or at least being treated way too good on this forum compared to for example Shin.

    I mean, why is Shin called a dumb brute by some here `because he is only a good fighter but a bad tactician`... while the same people who say that do not realise that Mouten is a good tactician but in no ways even close to the fighter Shin is. Some people even mentioning that Shin should be like Mouten... But how boring would that be as a main character?! We would all complain how he never defeats anyone strong in a legit fight 1 vs 1.

    If you ask me the only one out of the three that currently has it all to become a great general is Ouhon, and I do not even like him that much as I do with Shin and Mouten. This because I find Ouhon quite boring sometimes.


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    Where Shin is actually making his way into legendary status by killing other great figures, we are still waiting on Mouten`s first big kill. And yes, also in a fight pure based on tactics he has still not killed anyone noteworthy. Shin outshines him by day and night difference by making a name and status.
    Last edited by Duke; 01-03-2018 at 11:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Where Shin is actually making his way into legendary status by killing other great figures, we are still waiting on Mouten`s first big kill. And yes, also in a fight pure based on tactics he has still not killed anyone noteworthy. Shin outshines him by day and night difference by making a name and status.
    being great doesn't necessarily mean killing another great person rather defeating them in tactics and wits is also a way of winning battles (case: ousen vs ordo) and that is what tou told shin to learn. remember what genpo did to hishin unit and gkh unit. don't you think that such is also a great feat. afterall there are many ways of killing a rat. choping its head off is just but one of the ways.
    Last edited by Baragan; 01-03-2018 at 11:47 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Baragan View Post
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    being great doesn't necessarily mean killing another great person rather defeating them in tactics and wits is also a way of winning battles (case: ousen vs ordo) and that is what tou told shin to learn. remember what genpo did to hishin unit and gkh unit. don't you think that such is also a great feat. afterall there are many ways of killing a rat. choping its head off is just but one of the ways.
    But is defeating the enemy completely by killing it`s enemy commander not a way bigger feat than just defeating them and waiting for him, the enemy general to return with a fresh and new army. ;)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    But is defeating the enemy completely by killing it`s enemy commander not a way bigger feat than just defeating them and waiting for him, the enemy general to return with a fresh and new army. ;)
    when you look at the context of a long term war but for a battle its on a case by case scenario. mouten has managed to utilize makous men quite well after the death of makou. remember that not all the times you are going to get a clear shot at a generals head and many a times can the general be used as bait only to trap the attacking army. shin has fallen for this trap quite severally. do you think that since ousen has not killed any general (shown) is any lesser than houken who has claimed a fair number of Great generals?

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    and that is why shou was regarded by shk as the mastermind of the six great grenerals yet he didn't even wield a weapon

  5. #5
    Fair enough, but the topic is about the difference in how some people are debating Shin and Mouten on the forum here.

    Shin is actually a leader, where your example Houken is not more than a overpowered freak. Shin was able to lead 10 000 of Duke Hyou`s soldiers back during the Coalition war, and I believe the Duke his soldiers are way more proud than Makou`s. That is a huge feat, same as Mouten did now. Yet where is Mouten his martial feat? In this manga it has also become clear that the genius generals, not powerful in combat, had martial beasts under them. Mouten does not have someone like that either, or does anyone here really think Rikusen will become a new Rinko. Highest a Rikusen can go is a Heki.

    Who, noteworthy, has Mouten defeated anyway until now? Please do tell me.
    Last edited by Duke; 01-03-2018 at 12:20 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Fair enough, but the topic is about the difference in how some people are debating Shin and Mouten on the forum here.

    Shin is actually a leader, where your example Houken is not more than a overpowered freak. Shin was able to lead 10 000 of Duke Hyou`s soldiers back during the Coalition war, and I believe the Duke his soldiers are way more proud than Makou`s. That is a huge feat, same as Mouten did now. Yet where is Mouten his martial feat? In this manga it has also become clear that the genius generals, not powerful in combat, had martial beasts under them. Mouten does not have someone like that either, or does anyone here really think Rikusen will become a new Rinko. Highest a Rikusen can go is a Heki.

    Who, noteworthy, has Mouten defeated anyway until now? Please do tell me.
    Well, Rikusen current stats is the same as Heki with 254 overall

  7. #7
    well, i speak to myself. But i think shin usually causes very "shonen moments" AkA asspulls , lucky kills ,dumb charges(like himself mentioned last chapter )

    while chapter focus on mouten show us a really general vision and understanding , complaining about tactics, formations and how it impact the batllefield


    most of the kills shin got has been asspulls and insane plot armors , and because of that, even having so many kills he dosent impress me to much

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFuneral View Post
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    well, i speak to myself. But i think shin usually causes very "shonen moments" AkA asspulls , lucky kills ,dumb charges(like himself mentioned last chapter )

    while chapter focus on mouten show us a really general vision and understanding , complaining about tactics, formations and how it impact the batllefield
    Mouten and Ouhon both come over just as shounen as Shin does sometimes, so with all due respect - that is bullshit, pal. And it is not really shounen is it. It is Hara having a bit of a laugh and not taking it too serious all the time. I think it works and it is kinda refreshing. What did annoy me lately though, was Shin sweating too much and suddenly acting quite dumb indeed in stead of clumsy and yes, there is a big difference. Thankfully, last chapter we saw badass Shin again. With a sense of humor.

    And about what lucky kills are you talking?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldFuneral View Post
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    most of the kills shin got has been asspulls and insane plot armors , and because of that, even having so many kills he dosent impress me to much
    Are you joking? Fights like Shin vs Rinko, Shin vs Gaimou, Shin vs Mangoku, Shin vs Houken, Shin during the battle of Sai and go on, are absolutely brilliant and I never experienced such fights with Mouten nor Ouhon.

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    What I have noticed also in my years reading here, and again with all due respect, is that Shin has quite the mature fanbase. Mouten quite the fanatic yet hypocrite one. And Ouhon quite the childess and annoying one.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    treated way too good on this forum compared to for example Shin.
    for good reason lol

    I mean, why is Shin called a dumb brute by some here `because he is only a good fighter but a bad tactician`... while the same people who say that do not realise that Mouten is a good tactician but in no ways even close to the fighter Shin is. Some people even mentioning that Shin should be like Mouten... But how boring would that be as a main character?! We would all complain how he never defeats anyone strong in a legit fight 1 vs 1.
    it's because Shin is typically a smash first and listen for master's Ten's orders type of guy while Mouten can think for himself on a high level and can hold his own in a fight (i.e. not helpless like Ten). Mouten's not Shin level in martial, but he's in no way a scrub, dude survived a brawl being outnumbered against Kisui and roll back to the Coalition war first day where he parried Kouyoku twice and took out Hakurei. Mouten's not an eager martial officer who gets achievements by killing people through duels whereas most of Shin's achievements are from killing people with duels. I don't see why you're using this against Mouten when both of their style are so different. One acts more like a general while the other acts more like a brute akin Houken or Gaimou that needs to be directed at a target because he's dumb and his instinct's not bigger scale yet.

    Boring you say? Shin as the MC right now is boring, he has little development in the instinct category and always has to secure a general kill to be relevant. I'm not asking for a Gary Stu Shin or a Shin on par with Ouhon, but if Shin could dabble in some tactics or something it'd open up more doors for him to shine in the manga. We'd be able to see him do way more things and that's not boring to me. Of course, being more like Mouten doesn't mean he's going to be Ten and directing everything from the back and never fighting himself.


    If you ask me the only one out of the three that currently has it all to become a great general is Ouhon, and I do not even like him that much as I do with Shin and Mouten. This because I find Ouhon quite boring sometimes.
    I actually don't think so, he's too eager and stuck in the "I gotta lead my unit to glory" type of mindset. He has the abilities to be a general but not the mindset. As one of the admins love to say, "he's too immature"

    I do find him boring as he hasn't developed much if at all since he was introduced, he's still the same insufferable prick with a stick up his ass the size of Kankoku Pass.


    Where Shin is actually making his way into legendary status by killing other great figures, we are still waiting on Mouten`s first big kill. And yes, also in a fight pure based on tactics he has still not killed anyone noteworthy. Shin outshines him by day and night difference by making a name and status.
    Riboku's way more famous than Houken although Houken killed Ouki/Gekishin/Duke Hyou. I don't see why Mouten has to kill GGs when he can outplay them (in the future). He set up Shin and Ouhon to take down Rinko like Riboku set up Houken to take down GGs (although they failed but had they succeeded, Mouten would've gotten a lot of attention if it was discovered that it was his plan).


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  10. #10
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    Weird thread, Shin is the main character so you're going to get much more feats from him because he's going to get much more focus. Not to mention you say people blame shin for being a dumb brute with no knowledge, but say nothing about mouten. That's because Mouten is excellent in knowledge while great in combat.


    I can't recollect much battle feats rn, but Mouten blocked or dodged arrows from a 10 bow iirc and he parried hits from the bakuya sword guy. He also survived a hit from kanmei

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  11. #11
    Haters. But thanks for your reactions although I disagree on most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichiryuu View Post
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    I can't recollect much battle feats rn, but Mouten blocked or dodged arrows from a 10 bow iirc and he parried hits from the bakuya sword guy. He also survived a hit from kanmei
    Cute, Shin blocked hits from Renpa and Houken. Shin has lead and motivated just as many times Mouten did. KP, Sai, VS Keisha, ...
    Last edited by Duke; 01-04-2018 at 11:59 AM.

  12. #12
    more or less



    imo Kingdom isn't a traditional shounen battle manga. Seeing a win/victory by tactics is much more fun than a brute duelist like Gaimou

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Haters. But thanks for your reactions although I disagree on most.



    Cute, Shin blocked hits from Renpa and Houken. Shin has lead and motivated just as many times Mouten did. KP, Sai, VS Keisha, ...
    Mouten has little feats, but the feats he does have are good enough. because he's not the main character and because we don't see him going up against "big guys" aside from Kanmei where he was out of balance and barely was in a position to properly defend himself. Shin on the other hand is just shit in strategy or even his instinct for many cases (since it is undeveloped I guess). not to mention that since this manga is almost written like a Shonen and Shin is the main character you'll always have him surviving tough spots or him getting some kind of shine out of it. Not to mention that blocking Houken once as the main character shouldn't be THAT much of a huge feat seeing as Houken has no weight, where Shin has massive weight against Houken, because he killed 2 of his teachers he looked up to.

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  14. #14
    Talking about weight but you do use Mouten versus Kanmei where he was trying to save his own father. You are actually indeed proving what I mentioned in OP.


    I simply think the argument of main and support character is not good enough.
    Last edited by Duke; 01-04-2018 at 03:27 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Talking about weight but you do use Mouten versus Kanmei where he was trying to save his own father.


    I simply think the argument of main and support character is not good enough.
    It is not the only argument, like I said, it's weird to compare a guy who's excellent in one field and good/great in another to someone whos great in one field and shit in another.

    Also, Mouten trying to save his father is different, just a mission to save the coalition war from failing perhaps some personal feelings. The weight usually referred to is of the people near you/ you care about whose dreams or goals or troubles they had are now on your shoulders mostly notable after death. I forgot the exact words of the manga, but you can't compare this situation with the specific amount of weight Shin has especially when up against Houken. and Mouten was still out of balance and unable to properly defend himself even though he probably wouldn't have been able to change the outcome much if he did.

    RIP Chester, you'll always be loved and missed.




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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichiryuu View Post
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    It is not the only argument, like I said, it's weird to compare a guy who's excellent in one field and good/great in another to someone whos great in one field and shit in another.

    Also, Mouten trying to save his father is different, just a mission to save the coalition war from failing perhaps some personal feelings. The weight usually referred to is of the people near you/ you care about whose dreams or goals or troubles they had are now on your shoulders mostly notable after death. I forgot the exact words of the manga, but you can't compare this situation with the specific amount of weight Shin has especially when up against Houken. and Mouten was still out of balance and unable to properly defend himself even though he probably wouldn't have been able to change the outcome much if he did.
    How is Mouten martially good/great like you call it, compared with the other talents? He does not even dare go 1 vs 1 on Batei. And you know why, because he would be smashed in 2 minutes and he knows it. He could only plan things like vs Rinko or Kisui because Shin was there. I can play it also like that. Without him, he would be fucked. But that is something you guys refuse to see. It goes in both ways!

    They need each other, so Mouten is not better than Shin.



    Mouten is not outclassing Shin, at all. Shin was part of saving the entire nation for at least 50 percent at Sai. Only that is already outclassing anything Mouten has done. And than you can cringe whatever you want, at the end of the day, it is what you do. Actions speak louder. Shin is action. Shin is result. Using the main character argument is useless. Since it is you guys saying Mouten is outclassing Shin. Which is, again, a joke.








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    Last edited by Duke; 01-04-2018 at 03:47 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    How is Mouten martially good/great like you call it, compared with the other talents? He does not even dare go 1 vs 1 on Batei. And you know why, because he would be smashed in 2 minutes and he knows it. He could only plan things like vs Rinko or Kisui because Shin was there. I can play it also like that. Without him, he would be fucked. But that is something you guys refuse to see. It goes in both ways!

    They need each other, so Mouten is not better than Shin.



    Mouten is not outclassing Shin, at all. Shin was part of saving the entire nation for at least 50 percent at Sai. Only that is already outclassing anything Mouten has done. And than you can cringe whatever you want, at the end of the day, it is what you do. Actions speak louder. Shin is action. Shin is result.








    Getting used to some emoticons. ;-)
    The fact that Mouten blocked/dodged a 10 bows arrows and parried the bakuya sword guy and came out alive of battles where he was on the frontlines as the main target because he's a commander and where the tables were turned against him make him a good/great fighter at least better than 99% the soldiers we see in the story.

    RIP Chester, you'll always be loved and missed.




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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichiryuu View Post
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    The fact that Mouten blocked/dodged a 10 bows arrows and parried the bakuya sword guy and came out alive of battles where he was on the frontlines as the main target because he's a commander and where the tables were turned against him make him a good/great fighter at least better than 99% the soldiers we see in the story.
    Well, if you are going to count fodders. Than yes, Mouten is martially better than 99 procent of the fighters and soldiers we see in this manga.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
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    Well, if you are going to count fodders. Than yes, Mouten is martially better than 99 procent of the fighters and soldiers we see in this manga.
    He's young, they all have to learn how to deal with certain situations and get some experience in. They are the future as well so they are protected by not given such big responsibilities early so they don't go as wasted potential.

    RIP Chester, you'll always be loved and missed.




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  20. #20
    I can kind of see your argument and, based on what I've seen, people def ridicule Shin a lot on this forum (he was kind of a clown in some areas of this arc tho lmao) but Shin kinda relies on brute force too much.

    He's outclassed by nearly everyone worth salt in this manga in the intelligence department while Mouten can still hold his own against many people worth salt in the strength department. I agree that Mouten couldn't have completed some of his fets without Shin and vice versa, but I would say that Mouten is a more well rounded and balanced commander than Shin is.

    I will give Shin credit that he has gotten much smarter since the beginning of the manga. Idk how reliable the stats are, but I'm pretty sure Shin's intelligence was like 40 at the start of the manga and now it's 74.

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