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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Stark777 View Post
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    Chougaryuu wasnīt actually there, he was in pursuit of OuHon and when he realized OuHon`s true intentions he was tacken aback and in fact paused to think his next movement.

    Gakuei could have pursue the GHU, of course, but was in my opinion also surprised because their main target was never the GHU, but OuHon, and when he escaped he didnīt know what to do. Also he has to take in mind the 8000 men sent by Akou, and also he donīt seem very bright. We already have seen how Gakuei sent a emisary to ask Chougaryuu for instructions.
    Yes, I forgot Chougaryu wasn't actively in the fight.

    That still leaves the GKH unit pincered between his army and Gakuei's, them escaping from that and Gakuei needing orders to pursue is what is BS, like I'm telling you. A general doesn't need orders to know he has to pursue and destroy a fleeing enemy when there aren't any other threats around, that's like warfare 101. If not getting destroyed when pincered was so easy, why didn't Bananji just escape too,after all the enemies surrounding him were a lot less numerous?

  2. #42
    Banned brachydios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    You do realise Ouhon created said gap in the opposite direction from which the GKH retreated?

    And yes, I reread the previous chapter. There's no way the GKH just runs away, back first to an much larger army, without sustaining serious losses. It's not that easy to just turn and run with 2 armies pushing your shit in, were it so everyone would do it. And if it were, then Chougaryu turning his attention to Ouhon despite it being so 'obvious' the GKH would escape unscathed makes him look like a full-on retard, not 'HK-level'.

    Pick your poison.

    Take a look at the gap behind them and Ouhon's penetrated between Zhao's army units and drawn all of their attention toward himself and giving all remaining of his forces a chance to retreat.

    Well Ouhon managed to surprise them offensively and defensively by detaching himself from the main unit, truly the sign of GG was shown there.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by brachydios View Post
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    Take a look at the gap behind them and Ouhon's penetrated between Zhao's army units and drawn all of their attention toward himself and giving all remaining of his forces a chance to retreat.

    Well Ouhon managed to surprise them offensively and defensively by detaching himself from the main unit, truly the sign of GG was shown there.
    You would have a point if Chougaryu actually had taken his whole army to pursue Ouhon, thus giving breathing room to the GKH unit, but he didn't, he just took a detachment to go after him,while the rest of his army and Gakuei's army continued the attack. "All of their attention" is just hyperbole on your part.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    The GKH were still actively pincered even if Chougaryu himself was focused on Ouhon. CGR surely has his own deputies and subs, and not to mention Gakuei was still there. If it were as easy to just run from such a formation as you say, that makes CGR a dumbass for 1. thinking it would work and 2. throwing all his attention to Ouhon knowing the GKH would escape easily.

    ?? Ouhon was attacking the Bananji army, while Akakin was intercepting the detachment CGR sent to stop them. Chougaryu's core army was untouched. I wouldn't expect Akou's army without Akou to match a guy allegedly on the same level as a HK. Apparently, this altercation went on for a whole day, so I'm not sure what else they could be doing in the meantime.

    Well, you can think that CGR was a dumbass for focusing only in OuHon, but he was absolutely sure that OuHon had no means of escaping and that persuing OuHon will end in OuHon's death. So in his mind that was a perfect movement because taking another Qin's commanderīs head in the second day would have been a great success indeed. So yes, he focused in OuHon and took no mind in wiping out the GHU, which he could have done if he had remained in that battlefield instead of persuing OuHon with 2000-3000 of his men (this is also very important for understanding how the GHU managed to escape)

    So CGR mistake was not realizing that OuHon had another option and that he could actually avoid death. If that makes CGR an idiot for you, thatīs okay. But I think that we have seen much biggers asspulls and unrealistic tactics than the GHU successful retreat in my opinion.
    Last edited by Stark777; 11-22-2017 at 06:32 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by brachydios View Post
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    Take a look at the gap behind them and Ouhon's penetrated between Zhao's army units and drawn all of their attention toward himself and giving all remaining of his forces a chance to retreat.

    Well Ouhon managed to surprise them offensively and defensively by detaching himself from the main unit, truly the sign of GG was shown there.
    Correction, he drew the attention of 2000 or so guys led by CGR, the rest of the group should still have been pushing the GKH's shit in, not worrying about chasing Ouhon or whatever. They were already well into pushing through the GKH and were exercising pressure on two sides, the Gyoku Hou turning and running from a much larger army (literally 17k vs 3k) would have resulted in most of them being cut down from the back

  6. #46
    btw is it just me or does page 7 seem to have an issue with translation

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    Yes, I forgot Chougaryu wasn't actively in the fight.

    That still leaves the GKH unit pincered between his army and Gakuei's, them escaping from that and Gakuei needing orders to pursue is what is BS, like I'm telling you. A general doesn't need orders to know he has to pursue and destroy a fleeing enemy when there aren't any other threats around, that's like warfare 101. If not getting destroyed when pincered was so easy, why didn't Bananji just escape too,after all the enemies surrounding him were a lot less numerous?

    I agree, Gakuei could and should have pursue the GHU. CGR's army in the other hand was without his general and with Akou's 8000 men in their backs, that explains a lot.

    CGR made a mistake when he thought that OuHon had no escape and his death was granted, but I donīt think that makes CGR a moron, he just didnīt realize that OuHon had in fact another option. Gakuei is an idiot, I agree with that. But as I said we already have seen how Gakuei sent a messenger to ask CGR if he should pursue the GHU, when is obvious that he should have done that from the beggining .

  8. #48
    Banned brachydios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    You would have a point if Chougaryu actually had taken his whole army to pursue Ouhon, thus giving breathing room to the GKH unit, but he didn't, he just took a detachment to go after him,while the rest of his army and Gakuei's army continued the attack. "All of their attention" is just hyperbole on your part.
    Their main objective for 2nd day of the battle is Ouhon's head, CGR himself committed a full scale assault formation along with Gakuei deep inside Qin's formation, while pursuing Ouhon CGR his army was totally exposed to incoming Akou's reinforcement so his main army didn't moving around too much in order to stick with the initial plan.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Stark777 View Post
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    I agree, Gakuei could and should have pursue the GHU. CGR's army in the other hand was without his general and with Akou's 8000 men in their backs, that explains a lot.

    CGR made a mistake when he thought that OuHon had no escape and his death was granted, but I donīt think that makes CGR a moron, he just didnīt realize that OuHon had in fact another option. Gakuei is an idiot, I agree with that. But as I said we already have seen how Gakuei sent a messenger to ask CGR if he should pursue the GHU, when is obvious that he should have done that from the beggining .
    CGR army was far enough from Akou's men that CGR still had time to send a messenger AFTER pursuing Ouhon to tell them to engage the Akou reinforcements. CGR's and Gakuei's armies letting them escape with Banyou (lol) commanding them in that timespan instead of destroying them is BS.

    Apparently I have to beleieve that Ouhon can pincer and fuck up Bananji's army with a few hundred guys but Zhao can't destroy a few thousand guys when they surround them with two armies numbering in the thousands? Sorry, but no. That's straight up BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by brachydios View Post
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    Their main objective for 2nd day of the battle is Ouhon's head, CGR himself committed a full scale assault formation along with Gakuei deep inside Qin's formation, while pursuing Ouhon CGR his army was totally exposed to incoming Akou's reinforcement so his main army didn't moving around too much in order to stick with the initial plan.
    CGR had time to send a messenger to the rest of his army AFTER pursuing Ouhon to order them to attack the Ako reinforcements, they had plenty of time.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Baragan View Post
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    btw is it just me or does page 7 seem to have an issue with translation
    Yeah “alienated from Ouhon army” and “Lord Ouhon” should both be referring to Ousen.

  11. #51
    Banned brachydios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    Correction, he drew the attention of 2000 or so guys led by CGR, the rest of the group should still have been pushing the GKH's shit in, not worrying about chasing Ouhon or whatever. They were already well into pushing through the GKH and were exercising pressure on two sides, the Gyoku Hou turning and running from a much larger army (literally 17k vs 3k) would have resulted in most of them being cut down from the back


    Well, most of their units unable to move because they didn't have a direction after Ouhon escaped, CGR himself didn't have a second plan because he was so sure Ouhon would be dead by now.

    Gakuei is not the sharpest commander by the way

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    Apparently I have to beleieve that Ouhon can pincer and fuck up Bananji's army with a few hundred guys but Zhao can't destroy a few thousand guys when they surround them with two armies numbering in the thousands? Sorry, but no. That's straight up BS.
    Not to mention Ouhon literally ran from one end of the battlefield to the other to do so, right in Zhao territory, he can pull this off but no killing most of 3000 Banyou led guys is too much

    Niggas think CGR's and Gakuei's armies should just go into cryostasis while CGR is chasing Ouhon or something

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by brachydios View Post
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    Well, most of their units unable to move because they didn't have a direction after Ouhon escaped, CGR himself didn't have a second plan because he was so sure Ouhon would be dead by now.

    Gakuei is not the sharpest commander by the way
    Why are you showing me a page that happens after the aforementioned contrived escape?

    Gakuei's stupid, but he's not 'don't chase the army running away right in front of you that you are lterally already attacking' stupid, that requires him to be frozen in time.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    Not to mention Ouhon literally ran from one end of the battlefield to the other to do so, right in Zhao territory, he can pull this off but no killing most of 3000 Banyou led guys is too much

    Niggas think CGR's and Gakuei's armies should just go into cryostasis while CGR is chasing Ouhon or something

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why are you showing me a page that happens after the aforementioned contrived escape?

    Gakuei's stupid, but he's not 'don't chase the army running away right in front of you that you are lterally already attacking' stupid, that requires him to be frozen in time.
    Seriously, not pursuing a fleeing enemy makes him literally more stupid than Rankai, at least Rankai would go after the enemies if they started moving away from him

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    CGR army was far enough from Akou's men that CGR still had time to send a messenger AFTER pursuing Ouhon to tell them to engage the Akou reinforcements. CGR's and Gakuei's armies letting them escape with Banyou (lol) commanding them in that timespan instead of destroying them is BS.

    Apparently I have to beleieve that Ouhon can pincer and fuck up Bananji's army with a few hundred guys but Zhao can't destroy a few thousand guys when they surround them with two armies numbering in the thousands? Sorry, but no. That's straight up BS.



    CGR had time to send a messenger to the rest of his army AFTER pursuing Ouhon to order them to attack the Ako reinforcements, they had plenty of time.

    Well, wiping out the entire GHU is not that easy, that would require time, and they had Akou's 8000 men coming at full speed from their backs. The CGR army couldnīt ignore Akou's reinforcements and focus only in the GHU, that would have been suicidal. Take in mind that CGR army at that moment was composed of around only 7000 men and WITHOUT their general. They absolutely couldnīt ignore 8000 men coming from the rear.


    Are you sure that Gakuei isnīt a bigger idiot than Banyou??? I repeat, we have seen how Gakuei sent a messenger to ask CGR if he should pursue the GHU. How stupid is that?


    And again, in this manga I have seen many, many things far more unrealistic that this GHU retreat in these circunstances.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    Not to mention Ouhon literally ran from one end of the battlefield to the other to do so, right in Zhao territory, he can pull this off but no killing most of 3000 Banyou led guys is too much

    Niggas think CGR's and Gakuei's armies should just go into cryostasis while CGR is chasing Ouhon or something

    - - - Updated - - -


    Both armies were taken aback because their main target was OuHon and not the GHU, and OuHon escaped. Also, CGR's army was without their general, with only 7000 or so men, and with the 8000 Akouīs men coming from the back. Itīs not as if they had nothing to do and could focus in destroying the GHU.


    As for Gakuei yes, I think that his 7000 strong army could have destroyed the 3000 or so men of the GHU, but that takes time, itīs not that easy and to accomplish that he should have pursue the GHU for a while, which he didnīt because heīs a moron.


    So what we actually have seen is a 3000 or so strong army making an orderly retreat from a 7000 strong army lead by a moron. Is that so far fatched and so unrealistic in a manga like Kingdom?? We have seen smaller armies wiping out much bigger armies, among many other fantastic things.
    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by Stark777; 11-22-2017 at 07:03 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Stark777 View Post
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    Well, wiping out the entire GHU is not that easy, that would require time, and they had Akou's 8000 men coming at full speed from their backs. The CGR army couldnīt ignore Akou's reinforcements and focus only in the GHU, that would have been suicidal. Take in mind that CGR army at that moment was composed of around only 7000 men and WITHOUT their general. They absolutely couldnīt ignore 8000 men coming from the rear.
    They were wiping the GKH unit when Ouhon was there, we saw Zhao's troops killing them from behind while they tried to escape, are you telling me Ouhon leaving somehow made them more effective? Akou's reinforcements were far enough that CGR could send a messenger to them AFTER pursuing Ouhon through half the battlefield and still intercept them in time.


    Are you sure that Gakuei isnīt a bigger idiot than Banyou??? I repeat, we have seen how Gakuei sent a messenger to ask CGR if he should pursue the GHU. How stupid is that?
    You're misunderstanding me. Yes, Gakuei didn't pursue them like a dumbass. That's exactly what is unrealistic. That requires him to be dumber than Rankai, literally.

    And again, in this manga I have seen many, many things far more unrealistic that this GHU retreat in these circunstances.
    Well, the generals kill people by the dozen on a general basis, so sure. But as far as tactics go, this one has been pretty bad.

  16. #56
    Banned brachydios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    Not to mention Ouhon literally ran from one end of the battlefield to the other to do so, right in Zhao territory, he can pull this off but no killing most of 3000 Banyou led guys is too much

    Niggas think CGR's and Gakuei's armies should just go into cryostasis while CGR is chasing Ouhon or something

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why are you showing me a page that happens after the aforementioned contrived escape?

    Gakuei's stupid, but he's not 'don't chase the army running away right in front of you that you are lterally already attacking' stupid, that requires him to be frozen in time.
    They didn't want to pursue because of the impact of Akou's reinforcement would demolish entire CGR formation based on the cavalry momentum, CGR deployed 2 lines of defense to absorb the incoming clash because he's already in disadvantage position. After 1st day of battle they surely didn't want to face the destruction by making their line of defense thinner against the best Qin's cavalry charge.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Pirao View Post
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    Lol, that's straight up BS. Do you know why armies lost when they started breaking and fleeing? Because cutting you from behind when you're trying to escape is the ideal situation for the enemy to kill you. Do you know why Sun Tzu recommends giving an escape route to enemies instead of completely encircling them, even if you can? So that they flee and die, instead of fighting to the death.
    Sun Tzu's recommendations are absolutely irrelevant to what happened in the manga though. I posted a link to the panel which shows what happens and the there is space between the GKH and Zhao, meaning the GKH were too fast in their retreat. They weren't engaging - this wasn't a Kanki army/KPass situation where the leader-less army had to fight. Whether that would have happened in history does not matter when it happened in the manga.


    Are we supposed to believe that a force with no generals can defeat one with 2, one of them HK level, when we've seen over and over the difference having a general makes?
    The Akou soldiers didn't defeat Chougaryu though.The damage to Zhao was done to Bananji's army, not Chougaryu or Gakuei.

    edit:

    Stark/Brachy has explained my view better than I could though.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Sun Tzu's recommendations are absolutely irrelevant to what happened in the manga though. I posted a link to the panel which shows what happens and the there is space between the GKH and Zhao, meaning the GKH were too fast in their retreat. They weren't engaging - this wasn't a Kanki army/KPass situation where the leader-less army had to fight. Whether that would have happened in history does not matter when it happened in the manga.
    Why didn't Bananji just leave, then? He only had a few hundred enemies pincering him, he should be able to escape even easier than GKH. Instead, we're told that his army got fucked up.

    The Akou soldiers didn't defeat Chougaryu though.The damage to Zhao was done to Bananji's army, not Chougaryu or Gakuei.

    Stark has explained my view better than I could though.
    Never said they did? I was talking about GKH unit. They should have been seriously damaged in that pincer, if not straight up wiped out.

  19. #59
    How can you say they are not seriously damaged without having numbers?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Stark777 View Post
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    And again, in this manga I have seen many, many things far more unrealistic that this GHU retreat in these circunstances.
    I think this is the important line. If you think this chapter was bullshit, then if you're consistent in your judgements you might as well drop Kingdom and consider the entire story a load of bullshit.

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