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  1. #81
    Mr. Tambourine Man Rasendori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makenzye View Post
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    I didn't prove your point at all. If the challenge is lack of information, you're arming yourself literally with the blade of "I don't know" as your only weapon to "prove" something that the story doesn't suggest.

    Again, this falls on you to give evidence or at least context from within the story itself that suggests Stain isn't that powerful or even that large of a threat. There is also the problem when someone has their mind so hard set on something that they don't see it any other way. So even if evidence of suggestion is brought up, the person won't accept it because the absolute lack of evidence on their side is just somehow more appealing for them. Which you sort of tried with the whole "charisma impact," which didn't land well since the rest of the story sort of bolstered what Stain might mean. But then quickly moved on to the idea that un-expanded story was your best defense. Very little mention was made of what Stain actually did in the story to really drive your points home.



    If you wanted to say, "I don't think that's his power, so maybe we should put an asterisk suggesting 'Review Upon Further Evidence' because of so and so" I could understand that. That's application of story and evidence to the standing while instilling doubt into the position. But that is much different that saying, "That PROVES his power is lower." Simply because when you're asked to provide evidence, your evidence is literally... well... the suggestion of nothing on your part or the idea I should prove your point for you by "failing" to prove my own, which still wouldn't be evidence for your stance because, "Mak failed to do so," isn't any form of evidence. This would be different if Stain was just some brand new character with zero history whatsoever (including a kill list), action, and people just standing around saying he was A-Rank because of his design.

    If you do not have solid proof of your reasoning, then it falls before any sort of proof suggesting another option. Which in this case is what is happening. Your idea is that with no names or quirks or whatever listed for Stain's victims, you believe he fought what amounts to regular untrained humans. That moves from the realm of, "We don't have enough proof," to, "I'm going to insert wild speculation as likelihood and enforce the idea even context doesn't exist simply because it's a blank slate to me and if I don't know it, then it can't be true." Even though there is an assumption that what you don't know proves another point as true for you.

    Let's apply this another way. Let's say we don't don't really believe Endeavor is the second most powerful simply because... well... Because we need an example and to be fair we don't have anything to suggest his rank other than how others regard Endeavor. For all we know he just simply burns up wood related villains or saves millions of lives by keeping homes warm late at night. The story doesn't suggest this at all, but since the story never explicitly says it did/didn't happen we now have to believe that is the very likely method by which he attained his rank because there's nothing to really suggest aside from a single willing fight that he normally fights other combat villains. I mean, that's taking the idea of, "What may have happened," and completely assuming what DID happen while eschewing the context of his position, but that's the problem. Maybe he just generally deals with jewelry thieves. Maybe Endeavor only ever stops tsunamis. He fried up a Nomu whose weakness just happened to coincide with Endeavor's strength when All Might's direct strength was poorly aligned with Nomu's greatest defense. Conceivably, Todoroki may have been able to attain the same result with his fire and he's definitely not hovering around #2. Endeavor did fight another Nomu he simply injured and an injured Stain killed, but that can be put into context of Stain's willingness to just carve up a brain.

    It's the old saying, "Absence of Evidence isn't Evidence of Absence." And while it doesn't truly apply here, your argument is rooted entirely in it. What your argument should be is, "Not enough evidence to complete a profile." Which you'd be justified in talking about, but it would be also require you to assume the complete opposite of your suggestion.

    With that in mind let's go back to that list. Stain has killed or injured 40 heroes, so let's consider them excluding Ingenium I. So 39. Here's what we don't know about those 39 heroes: What their quirks were, how they operated, their experience, standing in the ranks, community interactions, and accomplishments. This gives us the low parameter for what we can assume about this list: There were anywhere between 0-39 combat oriented heroes. What we don't get to assume from this point is what we want that number to be since, as you pointed out, many heroes do many different things and it's not out of the ordinary for them to be more than one type of hero. However, we do actually know something about the members on that list All 39 required training and graduation from schools which train and strengthen quirks, taught and prepared these heroes for combat, placed them into combat scenarios, were raised in a culture that glorifies combat success, are pro-heroes who have worked around disaster situations, and that Stain intentionally didn't kill all of them as he left many as "messages." Those are the only solid facts we know about those characters. If this were a true Absence of Evidence, we could completely assume an equal chance that the heroes were either powerless or supremely powerful. But since we actually have context of who they were, we can surmise all of them had some capability of fighting and fighting experience, and that at the very least a few of them were most likely combat oriented since superhero culture favors the flashy combat heroes. Why do we assume that? Well, this is where the argument swings again with the context of the story: What little we've seen of Stain we do know he doesn't shy away from combat specialists and seems to be capable of handling them in a world that is happy to have a lot of combat heroes, which are the heroes we know for a fact Stain hates. We also know Stain isn't really the sniveling or passive aggressive type, so there's a pretty good chance he would directly target heroes who are in it for their own celebrity. We don't know exactly how Stain selects heroes, since there really doesn't seem to be any factor other than a hero taking a paycheck. This is another unknown factor. But we do see his willingness directly with the students whom Stain doesn't want to fight because they don't match up to his standards of targets, but is quick to turn around and willing to fight tremendously powerful combat oriented heroes who he disagrees with entirely. For this to be out of character we would require other characterizing moments where he doesn't display this behavior. But since this is the only thing we've ever seen from him, we can assume he generally behaves this way.


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    I think that's because it was the one who had a shit ton of strength to fight All Might plus the tremendous power absorbing nature of its skin being difficult to handle.
    I have solid evidence all might is a top tier hero. You do not have solid evidence Stain is. What's the issue?
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Makenzye View Post
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    I didn't prove your point at all. If the challenge is lack of information, you're arming yourself literally with the blade of "I don't know" as your only weapon to "prove" something that the story doesn't suggest.

    Again, this falls on you to give evidence or at least context from within the story itself that suggests Stain isn't that powerful or even that large of a threat. There is also the problem when someone has their mind so hard set on something that they don't see it any other way. So even if evidence of suggestion is brought up, the person won't accept it because the absolute lack of evidence on their side is just somehow more appealing for them. Which you sort of tried with the whole "charisma impact," which didn't land well since the rest of the story sort of bolstered what Stain might mean. But then quickly moved on to the idea that un-expanded story was your best defense. Very little mention was made of what Stain actually did in the story to really drive your points home.



    If you wanted to say, "I don't think that's his power, so maybe we should put an asterisk suggesting 'Review Upon Further Evidence' because of so and so" I could understand that. That's application of story and evidence to the standing while instilling doubt into the position. But that is much different that saying, "That PROVES his power is lower." Simply because when you're asked to provide evidence, your evidence is literally... well... the suggestion of nothing on your part or the idea I should prove your point for you by "failing" to prove my own, which still wouldn't be evidence for your stance because, "Mak failed to do so," isn't any form of evidence. This would be different if Stain was just some brand new character with zero history whatsoever (including a kill list), action, and people just standing around saying he was A-Rank because of his design.

    If you do not have solid proof of your reasoning, then it falls before any sort of proof suggesting another option. Which in this case is what is happening. Your idea is that with no names or quirks or whatever listed for Stain's victims, you believe he fought what amounts to regular untrained humans. That moves from the realm of, "We don't have enough proof," to, "I'm going to insert wild speculation as likelihood and enforce the idea even context doesn't exist simply because it's a blank slate to me and if I don't know it, then it can't be true." Even though there is an assumption that what you don't know proves another point as true for you.

    Let's apply this another way. Let's say we don't don't really believe Endeavor is the second most powerful simply because... well... Because we need an example and to be fair we don't have anything to suggest his rank other than how others regard Endeavor. For all we know he just simply burns up wood related villains or saves millions of lives by keeping homes warm late at night. The story doesn't suggest this at all, but since the story never explicitly says it did/didn't happen we now have to believe that is the very likely method by which he attained his rank because there's nothing to really suggest aside from a single willing fight that he normally fights other combat villains. I mean, that's taking the idea of, "What may have happened," and completely assuming what DID happen while eschewing the context of his position, but that's the problem. Maybe he just generally deals with jewelry thieves. Maybe Endeavor only ever stops tsunamis. He fried up a Nomu whose weakness just happened to coincide with Endeavor's strength when All Might's direct strength was poorly aligned with Nomu's greatest defense. Conceivably, Todoroki may have been able to attain the same result with his fire and he's definitely not hovering around #2. Endeavor did fight another Nomu he simply injured and an injured Stain killed, but that can be put into context of Stain's willingness to just carve up a brain.

    It's the old saying, "Absence of Evidence isn't Evidence of Absence." And while it doesn't truly apply here, your argument is rooted entirely in it. What your argument should be is, "Not enough evidence to complete a profile." Which you'd be justified in talking about, but it would be also require you to assume the complete opposite of your suggestion.

    With that in mind let's go back to that list. Stain has killed or injured 40 heroes, so let's consider them excluding Ingenium I. So 39. Here's what we don't know about those 39 heroes: What their quirks were, how they operated, their experience, standing in the ranks, community interactions, and accomplishments. This gives us the low parameter for what we can assume about this list: There were anywhere between 0-39 combat oriented heroes. What we don't get to assume from this point is what we want that number to be since, as you pointed out, many heroes do many different things and it's not out of the ordinary for them to be more than one type of hero. However, we do actually know something about the members on that list All 39 required training and graduation from schools which train and strengthen quirks, taught and prepared these heroes for combat, placed them into combat scenarios, were raised in a culture that glorifies combat success, are pro-heroes who have worked around disaster situations, and that Stain intentionally didn't kill all of them as he left many as "messages." Those are the only solid facts we know about those characters. If this were a true Absence of Evidence, we could completely assume an equal chance that the heroes were either powerless or supremely powerful. But since we actually have context of who they were, we can surmise all of them had some capability of fighting and fighting experience, and that at the very least a few of them were most likely combat oriented since superhero culture favors the flashy combat heroes. Why do we assume that? Well, this is where the argument swings again with the context of the story: What little we've seen of Stain we do know he doesn't shy away from combat specialists and seems to be capable of handling them in a world that is happy to have a lot of combat heroes, which are the heroes we know for a fact Stain hates. We also know Stain isn't really the sniveling or passive aggressive type, so there's a pretty good chance he would directly target heroes who are in it for their own celebrity. We don't know exactly how Stain selects heroes, since there really doesn't seem to be any factor other than a hero taking a paycheck. This is another unknown factor. But we do see his willingness directly with the students whom Stain doesn't want to fight because they don't match up to his standards of targets, but is quick to turn around and willing to fight tremendously powerful combat oriented heroes who he disagrees with entirely. For this to be out of character we would require other characterizing moments where he doesn't display this behavior. But since this is the only thing we've ever seen from him, we can assume he generally behaves this way.

    The problem about "solid evidence" is for your argument to work you would likewise need solid evidence to suggest what the story is implying is completely wrong.

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    I think that's because it was the one who had a shit ton of strength to fight All Might plus the tremendous power absorbing nature of its skin being difficult to handle.
    If it is the Nomu that all might fought then i feel it should be higher but i guess we should ask femto about changing stuff lol


    Best girl.

  3. #83
    @Chisaki I wanted to suggest some tier list changes like adding 2 Nomus and maybe moving Shoto up.
    Throw 100% Deku in there as well


    Best girl.

  4. #84
    Fallen Under Grace Nightfall's Avatar
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    why is Noumu in the same tier as Eraserhead when he stomp Eraserhead?


    "For years he devoted himself to training and after he could no longer find strong foes, Mihawk joined the Warlords."

    "Though Hawk-Eyes strikes fear into the hearts of those who follow the way of the sword, he looks forward to the future, to the day when he will meet the swordmaster that surpasses his rival 'Red Hair'."

    "He rose to renown even before the Great Age of Piracy. Even now he reigns supreme as the World's Best in name and actuality, an exceptional master swordsman."

    "He sits atop as the strongest, gazing down at his prey. The World's Strongest Swordsman!"

  5. #85
    Feel like Muscular and Kamui Woods need to be higher.
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  6. #86
    I agree on Muscular.

    Think we need to see a bit more about Kamui Woods, though we could move him up based on his rank really.

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    Hawks to upper or middle A-rank?

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    Looking at the tier list, why the fuck is Mina with Kamui, Dabi, Tokoyami and co?

    C- tier suits her way better.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
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    I agree on Muscular.

    Think we need to see a bit more about Kamui Woods, though we could move him up based on his rank really.
    I was thinking Muscular should be in the lowest subtier of A. Yeah, he had the strength of OfA, but I didn't think his speed was up to par. He was fast, but it didn't feel comparable to All Might. That being said, I definitely disagree about him being in the same subtier as Bakugou and Todoroki. The only real reason he lost to Deku was because he got cocky and was subsequently distracted by Kota. In a rematch, I definitely dont see that happening.

    As for Kamui, I have an extremely hard time seeing him being below Shota, Deku, and Bakugou. At the very very least, I think he should be in the top subtier of B. Preferably in the bottom subtier of A though.

    Yeah, Hawks definitely needs to be in middle A, at least.
    Last edited by Zu; 06-19-2018 at 08:04 PM.
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Zu View Post
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    I was thinking Muscular should be in the lowest subtier of A. Yeah, he had the strength of OfA, but I didn't think his speed was up to par. He was fast, but it didn't feel comparable to All Might. That being said, I definitely disagree about him being in the same subtier as Bakugou and Todoroki. The only real reason he lost to Deku was because he got cocky and was subsequently distracted by Kota. In a rematch, I definitely dont see that happening.

    As for Kamui, I have an extremely hard time seeing him being below Shota, Deku, and Bakugou. At the very very least, I think he should be in the top subtier of B. Preferably in the bottom subtier of A though.
    Sounds good, I would not personally place him with Overhaul or Endeavor, so bottom of A-tier should be good.

    We got Kurogiri in A-tier as well, so don't have any problem with Kamui there, I'll move them both up.

    Anyone else you believe needs moving? I'm personally bit iffy about Nejire being in A-tier, but that's mainly because we barely saw anything about her. Though I have no trouble with Amajiki being there...

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
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    Sounds good, I would not personally place him with Overhaul or Endeavor, so bottom of A-tier should be good.

    We got Kurogiri in A-tier as well, so don't have any problem with Kamui there, I'll move them both up.

    Anyone else you believe needs moving? I'm personally bit iffy about Nejire being in A-tier, but that's mainly because we barely saw anything about her. Though I have no trouble with Amajiki being there...
    Haha, I've only been skimming these past few chapters

    Haven't met Amajiki or Nejire.

    Though, I do believe Stain should be moved down to bottom A.
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