Islam debate and discussion thread

[MO]

True, Also dont the forget the muslim in Burma being killed, they are declared the most discriminated group in the world I hear. So sad

[Pimp of Pimps]

Al-Qurtubi reported: It reached Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, may Allah have mercy on him, that his son purchased a ring for a thousand coins, so he wrote to him saying: Indeed, I have heard that you purchased a ring for a thousand coins, so sell it and feed a thousand starving people and buy a ring of iron for one coin. Write over it, ‘May Allah have mercy on a man who knows his own position.’”

Source: Tafsīr al-Qurṭubī 16:14

عن القرطبي بَلَغَ عُمَرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ رحمه الله أَنَّ ابْنَهُ اشْتَرَى خَاتَمًا بِأَلْفِ دِرْهَمٍ فَكَتَبَ إِلَيْهِ إِنَّهُ بَلَغَنِي أَنَّكَ اشْتَرَيْتَ خَاتَمًا بِأَلْفِ دِرْهَمٍ فَبِعْهُ وَأَطْعِمْ مِنْهُ أَلْفَ جَائِعٍ وَاشْتَرِ خَاتَمًا مِنْ حَدِيدٍ بِدِرْهَمٍ وَاكْتُبْ عَلَيْهِ رَحِمَ اللَّهُ امْرَأً عَرَفَ قَدْرَ نَفْسِهِ

16:14 الجامع لأحكام القرآن

[Pimp of Pimps]

@ReXDrake;

I think you might find this an interesting read.

[ReXDrake]

@Pimp of Pimps;

and indeed it was, so thankyou for linking it to me. As you might have expected, I have a few questions and remarks id like you to address if you don't mind. I found it very amusing that under fiqh, there are a multitude of ways in which an accused can weasel their way out of a hudud punishment, and while it is good to know that officials were reluctant to issue such penalties for theft and fornication, I still wonder why they exist at all. I for one certainly do no consider fornication or alcohol/drug consumption to be immoral, much less sinful, so im interested to hear the Islamic basis for why such acts are viewed that way.

Another thing i don't understand is why there was so much inconsistency in how punishments would be enforced. For example, Brown states that people would often "turn a blind eye" to wrongdoings committed in private, and likewise that Muhammad would not have the hands of soldiers who had stolen amputated, merely because it was inconvenient to do so at the time.

I might have more to add later

[Pimp of Pimps]

@Z @Pimp of Pimps @Halaros 536 @Heart @Luffee @ShinjoXXXX @ReXDrake @The Shogun of Shoguns @Alex D. Boss @Akira @Le nettoyeur;


An excellent lecture by Dr. Brown on how to approach Hadith and why they need to be approached differently than the Quran.

And Rex, I'll respond to your post in a little bit.

[Pimp of Pimps]

It has been narrated by Ibn Mubaarak from Safwaan bin ‘Amr from Sulaym bin ‘Aamir who said that ‘Umar bin al-Khattaab [may Allaah be Pleased with him] would write to his mayors when winter entered, advising:
Winter has come and it is your enemy so fight it. Fight it with wool, Khuff (leather slippers) and socks (made out of other than leather). Make hats and muffles from wool because its coldness is quick to come upon you and slow to leave.
Ibn Rajab [may Allaah have Mercy on him] said thereafter:
‘Umar used to write to his mayors in ash-Shaam (the former name for the region of Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon and parts of Turkey) after it became under Islaamic rule. He used to make a point of writing to them continuously because he feared for the Companions [may Allaah be Pleased with them all] and others that were living there because they did not originally come from a climate with severe temperatures. Fearing that they would be afflicted with the extreme weather in ash-Shaam, he would write to them with advice - illustrating his sincerity, substantial insight, compassion, concern and fortification for those under him, may Allaah be Pleased with ‘Umar. End quote

[al-Lataaif al-Ma’aarif (Pg. 330-331)]

.

[Aegon Targaryen]

@Pimp of Pimps;

Check this video out of riots in France, and let me know your thoughts.

https://www.facebook.com/OurEyeOnIsl...c_ref=NEWSFEED

[Pimp of Pimps]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

@Pimp of Pimps;

Check this video out of riots in France, and let me know your thoughts.

https://www.facebook.com/OurEyeOnIsl...c_ref=NEWSFEED

Rioting isn't good.

What's your point here?

[Aegon Targaryen]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Rioting isn't good.

What's your point here?

informative standpoints gathering.

[Pimp of Pimps]

https://yaqeeninstitute.org/omar-sul...ortion-debate/

The Islamic position on abortion. Interesting read. Basically it is very disliked before 40 days and impermissible after 40 days unless there's potiental threat to the mother's life.
@Z @Pimp of Pimps @Halaros 536 @Heart @Luffee @ShinjoXXXX @ReXDrake @The Shogun of Shoguns @Alex D. Boss @Akira @Le nettoyeur;

[卐]

why did u mention yourself lol

[Aether]

nice

[R]

what the islam needs is a reformative head. like pope francis for christianity.

what the quran needs is the second testament. like the bible.

what belivers need is to be open minded for new exegeses.

islam is such an interesting culture. way to good to stick to literal meanings of nearly a century ago

[Pimp of Pimps]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

what the islam needs is a reformative head. like pope francis for christianity.

what the quran needs is the second testament. like the bible.

what belivers need is to be open minded for new exegeses.

islam is such an interesting culture. way to good to stick to literal meanings of nearly a century ago

What Islam needs is a restoration, not a reformation.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/essays/...tion-286652371

[R]

you can call it how you want, as long as the result vindicates it.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What Islam needs is a restoration, not a reformation.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/essays/...tion-286652371

[Pimp of Pimps]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

you can call it how you want, as long as the result vindicates it.

But what you call it is very important.

To say Islam needs a reformation is saying that the system itself needs to be changed. To say it needs a restoration is a return to a system that hasn't been applied and has been very poorly understood (even by its adherents) for the past few hundred years.

[R]

you are implying a system written down a century ago doesnt neet a change in todays modern society. at least this is what i am getting from you.

i am not referring to ISIS or other terroristic organisations, since they likely just need a justification for doing the horrible things they do, and if the quran would only consists of "the world is a marshmallow, all be nice" they likely would end up creating their own obscure religion just for the sake of continuing their fight.

i am referring to supporters of an islam who live in socio-economic cosmos with clear cut rules on liberty, being with one another, individual fulfillment and other things which shape a civil mikrocosmos.

a system which allows its belivers to use literal quotes to justify any form of actual happening supression should be changed.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

But what you call it is very important.

To say Islam needs a reformation is saying that the system itself needs to be changed. To say it needs a restoration is a return to a system that hasn't been applied and has been very poorly understood (even by its adherents) for the past few hundred years.

[ReXDrake]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

But what you call it is very important.

To say Islam needs a reformation is saying that the system itself needs to be changed. To say it needs a restoration is a return to a system that hasn't been applied and has been very poorly understood (even by its adherents) for the past few hundred years.

Ive got a pretty big question for you, as I recently came to a realization that renders all theistic systems futile.

Ive long questioned why Islam and Christianity demand worship and submission from people, and why they impose eternal punishment upon people for the "crime" of disbelieving. Even if gods existence was conclusively proven, and the message of its emissaries was perfectly good and moral, I just don't understand why we must devote our lives to worshipping and exalting them.

Even if I thought Muhammed was a perectly exemplary individual, it might be well and good to acknowledge that and try to emulate them as much as possible, but the idea that I MUST submit to them is just absurd. I am perfectly capable of living a good and moral life without invoking anything outside myself, much like it is possible to peacefully coexist with someone even if I absolutely hate them, and this makes worship unnecessary. Its because of this, that i will NEVER be a theist, even if i become convinced that a god exists, as I just cant understand why a god would care whether we like them or not.

Your response?

[Pimp of Pimps]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

you are implying a system written down a century ago doesnt neet a change in todays modern society. at least this is what i am getting from you.

i am not referring to ISIS or other terroristic organisations, since they likely just need a justification for doing the horrible things they do, and if the quran would only consists of "the world is a marshmallow, all be nice" they likely would end up creating their own obscure religion just for the sake of continuing their fight.

i am referring to supporters of an islam who live in socio-economic cosmos with clear cut rules on liberty, being with one another, individual fulfillment and other things which shape a civil mikrocosmos.

a system which allows its belivers to use literal quotes to justify any form of actual happening supression should be changed.

Sorry, I forgot all about this post.

Islam is a system that espouses universal values but, at the same time, offers a degree of flexibility. So it's soemthing that can be applied to any time or place.

Imam Ali would famously say that parents should not hold kids to the exact same standards as they themselves were held to, as a person's children were made for another era.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Ive got a pretty big question for you, as I recently came to a realization that renders all theistic systems futile.

Ive long questioned why Islam and Christianity demand worship and submission from people, and why they impose eternal punishment upon people for the "crime" of disbelieving. Even if gods existence was conclusively proven, and the message of its emissaries was perfectly good and moral, I just don't understand why we must devote our lives to worshipping and exalting them.

Even if I thought Muhammed was a perectly exemplary individual, it might be well and good to acknowledge that and try to emulate them as much as possible, but the idea that I MUST submit to them is just absurd. I am perfectly capable of living a good and moral life without invoking anything outside myself, much like it is possible to peacefully coexist with someone even if I absolutely hate them, and this makes worship unnecessary. Its because of this, that i will NEVER be a theist, even if i become convinced that a god exists, as I just cant understand why a god would care whether we like them or not.

Your response?

One, knowing or suspecting God is real and then refusing to submit is just your pride getting in the way. It's kinda like refusing to do something at gunpoint just cause you don't like being told what to do. If your brains get splattered all over the wall you really only have yourself to blame.

Two, God isn't like any other individual. The fact that people with differing values can peacefully coexist is something Islam openly embraces. This is evidences by the tolerances of opinions within Islam as well as the rules Islam has when it comes to freedom of belief. That can't be compared to acknowledging and submitting to God, who is the source of all things and who determines right and wrong. If we weren't required to submit to God, then we'd be living life as we want to and not as we think is best. It's just be a bunch of people doing what they want and succumbing to their deepest desires. Furthermore, humans are simply not capable of discerning what the right thing to do in every situation without assistance. Some individuals can live "moral" lives without God, but society cannot be moral without God.

[ReXDrake]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Sorry, I forgot all about this post.

Islam is a system that espouses universal values but, at the same time, offers a degree of flexibility. So it's soemthing that can be applied to any time or place.

Imam Ali would famously say that parents should not hold kids to the exact same standards as they themselves were held to, as a person's children were made for another era.



One, knowing or suspecting God is real and then refusing to submit is just your pride getting in the way. It's kinda like refusing to do something at gunpoint just cause you don't like being told what to do. If your brains get splattered all over the wall you really only have yourself to blame.

Two, God isn't like any other individual. The fact that people with differing values can peacefully coexist is something Islam openly embraces. This is evidences by the tolerances of opinions within Islam as well as the rules Islam has when it comes to freedom of belief. That can't be compared to acknowledging and submitting to God, who is the source of all things and who determines right and wrong. If we weren't required to submit to God, then we'd be living life as we want to and not as we think is best. It's just be a bunch of people doing what they want and succumbing to their deepest desires. Furthermore, humans are simply not capable of discerning what the right thing to do in every situation without assistance. Some individuals can live "moral" lives without God, but society cannot be moral without God.

Firstly, thanks a lot for your response. Im yet to hear a Christian tackle my comment.

Im not in complete agreement with your analogy, as in an ideal system you wouldn't be in that situation at all and nobody would have the right to hold a gun to your head in the first place. And so what if im prideful? I said above that it is perfectly possible to be good and moral even if I HATED somebody, so lets not pretend that subordination to god is necessary for peace and order. Whats your objection to people just doing what they want to do and "succumbing to their deepest desires" if that isn't affecting the wellbeing of anybody else?

Also, what did you mean when you said society cant be moral without divine instruction. Look at how peaceful some secular places are. Do you have an argument for WHY we should submit to god, with all that in mind, as ive already demonstrated how i can personally distinguish between right and wrong without needing any external guide.