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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    The stats are frequently inconsistent, and are largely disregarded by people on this forum. Just look at this thread. At the very best, they're secondary canon, and hold weight only when they don't contradict feats or statements in the manga. SHK's strength stat is contradicted by him fodderizing Juuteki and by Juuteki's and Kaioku's statements.

    Oda obviously gave Juuteki time to recognize that SHK's strength is far above his. But no, I bet Juuteki was lying to himself, just like Kaioku. You're massively in denial.
    What Oda has to do with it?

    The stats are not "frequently inconsistant", aside from few controversial ones like SHK strenght or Ouki's leadership most fans accepts them and uses them in disscussion.

    I don't think you completely understood my point in previous post, so I'm gonna give you an example.
    According to Karyo Ten and Kinmou Kanki is on the same level as Riboku. Those that mean it's officially confirmed that Kanki = Riboku? Ofc not, because when they said this, they didn't knew about his weakness, which might play big role in his overall effectiveness. The statement is just an opinion of character A about character B based on information that he or she has and the context might change it's creditability. Maybe in the next 100 chapters Karyo Ten will lern about Kanki's weakness and her opinion about him will change.

    I don't completely disregard manga statements, but in my opinion they don't hold as much weight as stats. Stats are data about characters skills made by author (who should know everything about them, since he is the creator of this manga). When we are disscusing characters strenght we are basically trying to guess what the author thinks about it. The stats are exacly that - what Hara thinks about characters fighting abilities, leadership and knowledge. Ofc, they don't cover every aspect of persons skills, but by definition they can't be wrong.
    Last edited by Cichy; 07-03-2017 at 08:28 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    The stats are not "frequently inconsistant", aside from few controversial ones like SHK strenght or Ouki's leadership most fans accepts them and uses them in disscussion.
    I don't think you completely understood my point in previous post, so I'm gonna give you an example.
    According to Karyo Ten and Kinmou Kanki is on the same level as Riboku. Those that mean it's officially confirmed that Kanki = Riboku? Ofc not, because when they said this, they didn't knew about his weakness, which might play big role in his overall effectiveness. The statement is just an opinion of character A about character B based on information that he or she has and the context might change it's creditability. Maybe in the next 100 chapters Karyo Ten will lern about Kanki's weakness and her opinion about him will change.
    I don't completely disregard manga statements, but in my opinion they don't hold as much weight as stats. Stats are data about characters skills made by author (who should know everything about them, since he is the creator of this manga). When we are disscusing characters strenght we are basically trying to guess what the author thinks about it. The stats are exacly that - what Hara thinks about characters fighting abilities, leadership and knowledge. Ofc, they don't cover every aspect of persons skills, but by definition they can't be wrong.
    You don't understand the concept of secondary canon. Things like interviews, databooks, and stats are secondary canon. If Hara stated in an interview that Duke Hyou killed Fuuki, the manga would be right, and Hara would be wrong. If the next round of stats gave a Ouki an 80 in strength or Riboku a 90 in knowledge, the stats would be wrong. The stats are at best secondary canon. A lot of people think that they conflict with the manga so much that they shouldn't be given any weight, but at most they count only when they are consistent with the manga.

    Of course character statements should be taken with a grain of salt. For instance, Rinbou thought that Ouki was in danger of losing to Shoumou. Then Ouki's right hand man corrected Rinbou, and he was proven right when Ouki fodderized Shoumou. We should trust Tou a lot more than Rinbou, especially when it comes to Ouki's strength. In a parallel scene, SBK thought that SHK was in danger, and SHK's right hand man corrected him and explained how strong SHK is. And then he was proven right when SHK pretty much soloed Juuteki's whole army and fodderized him, and Juuteki thought to himself that he's completely outclassed in strength. Similarly, we should not trust SBK, but we should trust Kaioku, and Juuteki, and what we saw actually happened in the fight, which helps confirm their statements.
    "What!? Obviously Doflamingo and any other New World saga antagonist can easily beat that Whitebeard pirate with the top hat whose name I forgot, the one who appeared for a few panels at Marineford. Also Barreltheif is my favorite poster on NF." - Eiichiro Oda (SBS)

  3. #23
    told ya nighty, remember ?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    My complaint was that Ten's leadership stat is closer to Ouki's than to Shin's. I'm not sure whether I think Ten's stat is too high (it probably is), but the problem is mostly Ouki's and Shin's stats.





    Coming up with a strategy for 10,000 people isn't leading them. It's coming up with a strategy. Shin actually led 10,000 people, shortly after Ten saw the battlefield for the first time.



    Ten was shitting herself while Shin was rallying the Duke's troops. You're thinking of 9 chapters later, when she helped to reorganize the HSU. That actually was a leadership feat, it just wasn't anywhere remotely near the level of Shin's feat.




    Shin's problem after Sanyou had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with leadership. You could put the greatest leader in the world there and it wouldn't have helped. Shin needed a strategist. That's why Mouten found him a strategist who had no leadership experience or ability whatsoever. You're confusing leadership (in which charisma is one factor) with strategy, which is something completely unrelated that Ten excels at.
    I don't know what your idea of leadership is but strategy is absolutely part of it. If I am to follow someone into treacherous groud I'd want to be led by someone who knew what he was doing and how to go about doing it. A leader from any walk of life can't just be good at inpsiring people, he has to delegate, plan, lead his men down the best directions. If Shin can't lead 1k handpicked guys properly for whatever reason he's not a good leader period. It'd be one thing if Shin decided to search out a strategist after Sanyou, but Mouten had to do it for him and he was too bullheaded to accept (good thing it was Ten and not Mouki) despite the fact his unit would have been finished in a few weeks.
    Last edited by Tenma; 07-03-2017 at 11:55 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    You're confused. Kaioku first suggested that SHK used to be stronger than Moubu, possibly referring to a fight in their youth. Kaioku then stated that currently, SHK isn't all that far below Moubu; "speaking generously" they're on the same level.

    And remember that Kaioku is SHK's right hand man, making him one of the most qualified and trustworthy people when it comes to SHK's strength. It's no different than Ouki's right hand man correcting Rinbou. And just as Tou was immediately proven right by Ouki no diffing a strong martial general, Kaioku was immediately proven right by SHK soloing Juuteki's army and no diffing him.

    Juuteki isn't a brainless tank. He's actually pretty smart. He figured out the best chance to escape SHK's offensive tactics. We also know that he's no match for SHK in brawn, as he himself stated.
    You think Kaioku, who is ultimately an academy teacher, really comprehends elite martial ability, much less Moubu's? He knows SHK beat Moubu in a fight in there youth, and at 90/100, SHK is at a level that is amazingly strong in the context of China. That's why Kaioku is mistaken. He is not qualified to judge Moubu in the slightest. If I watch an NFL game, I won't be able to accurately judge how good each player is - I'll be able to see the top players from the good players, but I won't understand enough to truly differentiate between the great players and the truly exceptional ones. I'd just lump them together. In this context, both SHK and Moubu are great players. SHK at 90 is 'only' great. Moubu is truly exceptional.

    To strategists, guys like Rokuomi (91) are absolute monsters. SHK is truly exceptional to be a a top tier genius and a 90 martial ability at the same time. Most strategists are having stats of 30's, 40's, 60's, 70's, 80s etc.
    Last edited by Kanki; 07-03-2017 at 12:44 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    Shou Hei Kun is a skinny, small guy that spent most of his life in Kantan making plans and schemes. In the past 10 years there was only one battle we know he took part of. Do you really think someone like this would have 99 strenght like Moubu and Kanmei? Do you really think he would be a match for Houken?
    This. I mean, taking this route, even SHK's 90 str. seems like a stretch (same as Kaishibou, touring the battlefield) but being on the same page as Moubu or Kanmei by talent and some training alone would really blow. Also, it takes the whole "symbol of Qin" away. Next we know Rien blocks Gaimou's swing, laughing how light it is.

    Also:




    Riboku tells us that only a king or a martial general (to near the same extent) could rise common people's morale like this. Yet SHK deems himself not fit. If SHK truly was on Moubu's level and thus martial at it's most martial, this either means:
    a) SHK doesn't know his own capabilities. (I doubt it)
    b) SHK planned to sacrifice Sei and Sai. Maybe to rouse the capital's peasants - which seems next to impossible with Sei dead. Plus it seems out of place, especially since he saved Sei arcs later.
    c) SHK deems himself more than able, but fears for Ryofui's shenanigans (whatever they may be). Yet he was alone with Sei when he told him he could not do it. No reason to lie. Plus king + martial might would be unstoppable according to Riboku.
    d)?

    ABOUT C-S: wasn't this meant to show the character's growth potential? Though not being very accurate? So let's say
    Character A: "A" 90/90/90
    Character B: "B" 90/90/90
    Character B will, if he lives long enough, outgrow character A by quite a bit.
    Last edited by say-and-sing; 07-03-2017 at 04:32 PM.


  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    I don't know what your idea of leadership is but strategy is absolutely part of it. If I am to follow someone into treacherous groud I'd want to be led by someone who knew what he was doing and how to go about doing it. A leader from any walk of life can't just be good at inpsiring people, he has to delegate, plan, lead his men down the best directions. If Shin can't lead 1k handpicked guys properly for whatever reason he's not a good leader period. It'd be one thing if Shin decided to search out a strategist after Sanyou, but Mouten had to do it for him and he was too bullheaded to accept (good thing it was Ten and not Mouki) despite the fact his unit would have been finished in a few weeks.
    Yeah, I'd also want to be led by someone who is physically strong. And preferably by someone with good instincts. And someone who is experienced and knowledgeable.

    You're lumping everything that can make someone a good general under the category of leadership. If you're going to conflate strategy and leadership, then we're done here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    This. I mean, taking this route, even SHK's 90 str. seems like a stretch (same as Kaishibou, touring the battlefield) but being on the same page as Moubu or Kanmei by talent and some training alone would really blow. Also, it takes the whole "symbol of Qin" away. Next we know Rien blocks Gaimou's swing, laughing how light it is.

    Also:




    Riboku tells us that only a king or a martial general (to near the same extent) could rise common people's morale like this. Yet SHK deems himself not fit. If SHK truly was on Moubu's level and thus martial at it's most martial, this either means:
    a) SHK doesn't know his own capabilities. (I doubt it)
    b) SHK planned to sacrifice Sei and Sai. Maybe to rouse the capital's peasants - which seems next to impossible with Sei dead. Plus it seems out of place, especially since he saved Sei arcs later.
    c) SHK deems himself more than able, but fears for Ryofui's shenanigans (whatever they may be). Yet he was alone with Sei when he told him he could not do it. No reason to lie. Plus king + martial might would be unstoppable according to Riboku.
    d)?
    That has nothing to do with martial ability. It has to do with leadership and weight. SHK isn't a general, and has way less leadership experience than Duke Hyou. He cannot inspire troops to the same degree.

    I have no idea what you're taking about with the Rien vs Gaimou thing. Rien doesn't go around fodderizing martial generals and getting compared to Moubu.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    You think Kaioku, who is ultimately an academy teacher, really comprehends elite martial ability, much less Moubu's? He knows SHK beat Moubu in a fight in there youth, and at 90/100, SHK is at a level that is amazingly strong in the context of China. That's why Kaioku is mistaken. He is not qualified to judge Moubu in the slightest. If I watch an NFL game, I won't be able to accurately judge how good each player is - I'll be able to see the top players from the good players, but I won't understand enough to truly differentiate between the great players and the truly exceptional ones. I'd just lump them together. In this context, both SHK and Moubu are great players. SHK at 90 is 'only' great. Moubu is truly exceptional.
    Kaioku is one of the most qualified people in the series to comment on SHK's strength. SHK's strength is largely a secret that's been very slowly foreshadowed since he was first introduced, and if you know history, you can probably guess why. Kaioku is SHK's right hand man. He's one of the very few people who should actually know SHK's strength. Not to mention that the whole point of that scene was that he was immediately proven right by SHK fodderizing a pretty strong martial general, paralleling the way Tou corrected Rinbou and was proven right.

    To strategists, guys like Rokuomi (91) are absolute monsters.
    I have no idea wtf you're talking about here. Riboku or GHM or Kaioku would consider Houken to be a monster. Rokuomi is not a monster to them at all.
    Last edited by barreltheif; 07-03-2017 at 06:58 PM.
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  8. #28
    SHK isn't a general by title, but he can act and become one.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    SHK isn't a general by title, but he can act and become one.
    Yep
    "What!? Obviously Doflamingo and any other New World saga antagonist can easily beat that Whitebeard pirate with the top hat whose name I forgot, the one who appeared for a few panels at Marineford. Also Barreltheif is my favorite poster on NF." - Eiichiro Oda (SBS)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    Kaioku is one of the most qualified people in the series to comment on SHK's strength. SHK's strength is largely a secret that's been very slowly foreshadowed since he was first introduced, and if you know history, you can probably guess why. Kaioku is SHK's right hand man. He's one of the very few people who should actually know SHK's strength. Not to mention that the whole point of that scene was that he was immediately proven right by SHK fodderizing a pretty strong martial general.
    You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Kaioku is qualified to judge SHK generally, but he is not qualified to compare him to current Moubu; a man whose strength is beyond reason and beyond comprehension to a pure chessboard strategist. Kaioku's hype is based on 2 + 2 = 5. He knows SHK is an amazing fighter (which a 90 is) and he knows SHK beat up Moubu when they were kids, thus he thinks they must still be close.

    I have no idea wtf you're talking about here. Riboku or GHM would consider Houken to be a monster. Rokuomi is not a monster to them at all.
    I'm saying he will see Rokuomi as an incredible fighter. Had Rokuomi sucker punched and beat Moubu up in his youth, Kaioku would probably see him as being close to Moubu. Do you really think Hara made a mistake 3 times with SHK, who is one of the most important, long standing characters and had the climax of an arc specifically built around him? Meanwhile you think DJ - a totally irrelevant character who will never be mentioned again - was accurately rated? Because that would make zero sense.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    That has nothing to do with martial ability. It has to do with leadership and weight. SHK isn't a general, and has way less leadership experience than Duke Hyou. He cannot inspire troops to the same degree.
    Riboku explicitly refers to "the strength of a martial general" evoking such a response.

    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    I have no idea what you're taking about with the Rien vs Gaimou thing. Rien doesn't go around fodderizing martial generals and getting compared to Moubu.
    Because it would be horrible writing. Same goes with SHK being on Moubu/Kanmei level. SHK's speech to Moubu about being the strongest (ch. 313), his praise for Moubu's (and only his) raw strength as a phenomenon surpassing tactics (ch. 132), all becomes hollow once it turns out that there are some people, mostly sitting around all day, able to do the same (or even more).

    It also makes one wonder why Qin wastes a 99/96/98 god-of-all-trades idling in it's capital. If Karin starts fainting by the idea of meeting Moubu, imagine her reaction once word gets out Qin's top strategist is on the same boat.


  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    I don't know what your idea of leadership is but strategy is absolutely part of it. If I am to follow someone into treacherous groud I'd want to be led by someone who knew what he was doing and how to go about doing it. A leader from any walk of life can't just be good at inpsiring people, he has to delegate, plan, lead his men down the best directions. If Shin can't lead 1k handpicked guys properly for whatever reason he's not a good leader period. It'd be one thing if Shin decided to search out a strategist after Sanyou, but Mouten had to do it for him and he was too bullheaded to accept (good thing it was Ten and not Mouki) despite the fact his unit would have been finished in a few weeks.
    You're mixing up Leadership and Knowledge.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Kaioku is qualified to judge SHK generally, but he is not qualified to compare him to current Moubu; a man whose strength is beyond reason and beyond comprehension to a pure chessboard strategist. Kaioku's hype is based on 2 + 2 = 5. He knows SHK is an amazing fighter (which a 90 is) and he knows SHK beat up Moubu when they were kids, thus he thinks they must still be close.
    Kaioku is probably one of the few people who understands both Moubu's and SHK's strength. SHK and Moubu do, and Saitaku was implied to as well, but almost no one else does.

    The entire fucking point of the scene was to show that Kaioku understood SHK's strength, while SBK did not. What you're saying is like thinking that Tou was overestimating Ouki when Ouki beat Shoumou. Hara was using Kaioku to give us information. He even had him slip in another enormously important piece of information in the middle of hyping SHK as well.

    I'm not sure where you got the idea that Kaioku knows about SHK punching Moubu once when they were kids. If he knows details like that, then he's even more knowledgeable about them than I thought. In any case, Kaioku explicitly makes clear that he's not talking about that. While SHK might have been stronger when they were younger, now Moubu is stronger, but SHK, speaking generously, is on his level.


    I'm saying he will see Rokuomi as an incredible fighter. Had Rokuomi sucker punched and beat Moubu up in his youth, Kaioku would probably see him as being close to Moubu. Do you really think Hara made a mistake 3 times with SHK, who is one of the most important, long standing characters and had the climax of an arc specifically built around him? Meanwhile you think DJ - a totally irrelevant character who will never be mentioned again - was accurately rated? Because that would make zero sense.
    No. What? Strategists do not see Rokuomi as a monster, any more than martial fighters do. Kaioku and GHM and Riboku are completely able to see the difference between Rokuomi and Houken. I have no clue where you got this idea from.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    Riboku explicitly refers to "the strength of a martial general" evoking such a response.
    Right. But it's SHK's leadership that makes him incapable of rallying Sai, not his martial ability. Sei rallied Sai despite being a mediocre warrior. Try to keep up.


    Because it would be horrible writing. Same goes with SHK being on Moubu/Kanmei level. SHK's speech to Moubu about being the strongest (ch. 313), his praise for Moubu's (and only his) raw strength as a phenomenon surpassing tactics (ch. 132), all becomes hollow once it turns out that there are some people, mostly sitting around all day, able to do the same (or even more).
    Moubu is stronger than SHK. SHK is, speaking generously, on roughly the same level as Moubu.


    It also makes one wonder why Qin wastes a 99/96/98 god-of-all-trades idling in it's capital.
    I don't want to spoil the end of the series for you.
    Last edited by barreltheif; 07-03-2017 at 07:34 PM.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    Right. But it's SHK's leadership that makes him incapable of rallying Sai, not his martial ability. Sei rallied Sai despite being a mediocre warrior. Try to keep up.
    Of course Sai manages since as the king, he is the "only one possible candidate" besides a martial general. You have two options. And SHK deemed himself neither of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    I don't want to spoil the end of the series for you.
    This isn't an eos-problem but a current. SHK is rather open about his strength, and if it was anywhere near the same level as Moubu's, letting him sit behind a desk is basically the same thing Chu does with Renpa. Though with Renpa, there are excuses, one based on current events. Unlike SHK.
    But spoil freely, maybe it makes sense then.


  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    Kaioku is probably one of the few people who understands both Moubu's and SHK's strength. SHK and Moubu do, and Saitaku was implied to as well, but almost no one else does.
    What makes you think Saitaku has a clue about the specifics of how strong Moubu is? Do you think he's seen Moubu in a situation like he was vs Kanmei? If he hasn't, then that point simply can not be true. Likewise with Kaioku. You have to see Moubu's power to believe it. In fact SHK specifically stated that Moubu defies the normal thought process of a strategist, which Kaioku is to a T.

    The entire fucking point of the scene was to show that Kaioku understood SHK's strength, while SBK did not. What you're saying is like thinking that Tou was overestimating Ouki when Ouki beat Shoumou. You're intentionally misinterpreting the manga.
    The entire point was that Kaioku knew SHK was an extremely powerful martial general - which he is. SBK thought SHK was just the usual pencil pushing strategist who could not fight at all and that is why he was wrong + amazed. Kaioku was wrong with the specifics when he said he was = or close to Moubu. As I said, most strategists are physical fodder, which is why SHK is so incredible.

    Kaioku is the wrong person to compare SHK and Moubu directly though, because he has no true comprehension of how powerful Moubu is. He only knows both SHK/Moubu are very powerful and that SHK won in their only previous fight. You can be extremely powerful without being close to Moubu.

    I'm not sure where you got the idea that Kaioku knows about SHK punching Moubu once when they were kids. If he knows details like that, then he's even more knowledgeable about their strength than I thought. In any case, Kaioku explicitly makes clear that he's not talking about that. While SHK might have been stronger when they were younger, now Moubu is stronger, but SHK, speaking generously, is on his level.
    I'm being flippant with the specifics of the details Kaioku knew about. All we do know is that SHK beat Moubu when they were younger and he uses that to form an opinion.

    You've not been able to explain how you believe Kaioku can possibly know in detail just how strong Moubu is, nor have you been able to explain the stats. In fact, Moubu had never shown anyone just how strong he was prior to the Kanmei fight, so again - how would Kaioku know? The same Kaioku who spends his time in the palace teaching students and creating strategies all day and not on the front lines.



    No. What? Strategists do not see Rokuomi as a monster, any more than martial fighters do. Kaioku and GHM and Riboku are completely able to see the difference between Rokuomi and Houken. I have no clue where you got this idea from.
    I changed my word from monster to 'incredible fighter'. Unless one has seen it, a strategist would not know, especially when they already have a bias, preconceived opinion.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    Of course Sai manages since as the king, he is the "only one possible candidate" besides a martial general. You have two options. And SHK deemed himself neither of them.
    To rally Sai, you need to have good enough leadership. Sei does. Certain martial generals also do, like Duke Hyou, and possibly others. SHK does not. Neither do most martial generals. None of this has anything whatsoever to do with SHK's martial ability. It's his leadership that's insufficient. Get it?

    This isn't an eos-problem but a current. SHK is rather open about his strength, and if it was anywhere near the same level as Moubu's, letting him sit behind a desk is basically the same thing Chu does with Renpa. Though with Renpa, there are excuses, one based on current events. Unlike SHK.
    But spoil freely, maybe it makes sense then.
    Hara has largely been hiding SHK's strength and keeping him far from the battlefield, because he betrays Qin and becomes the last king of Chu and probably the final antagonist of the series.
    "What!? Obviously Doflamingo and any other New World saga antagonist can easily beat that Whitebeard pirate with the top hat whose name I forgot, the one who appeared for a few panels at Marineford. Also Barreltheif is my favorite poster on NF." - Eiichiro Oda (SBS)

  17. #37
    Wait...why are SHK's other attributes being debated here? He's obviously amazing at everything with the only question mark being where he stands between 'very good' and 'top tier' in a martial sense.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    To rally Sai, you need to have good enough leadership. Sei does. Certain martial generals also do, like Duke Hyou, and possibly others. SHK does not. Neither do most martial generals. None of this has anything whatsoever to do with SHK's martial ability. It's his leadership that's insufficient. Get it?
    Of course not all martial generals are able, hence Riboku's mentioning of Ouki. Seeing a 75 str "martial" general stab a few people is not getting any peasant aroused. Them watching some 98str general sending corpses flying left and right, waltzing through the enemy like a god, that is getting the heat up.
    At least, that is how it works for Riboku (and in the end, Hara) since if it was leadership Riboku was worrying about, he would not have gone out of his way talking about martial strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    Hara has largely been hiding SHK's strength and keeping him far from the battlefield, because he betrays Qin and becomes the last king of Chu and probably the final antagonist of the series.
    Eh, SHK really being a god-of-all-trades (instinct as well, perhaps) seems rather unoriginal. But I guess it can't be helped.

    Yet, if SHK is to become this mountain, he needs to keep his 96 leadership at least. So he would be able to rally Sai (lesser than Sei) AND use his enormous str. to bolster again. Unless you take down his leadership stat as well and have him earn it during a festive moment in Chu. If Hara is planning to do so, he should scrap the books immediately.
    Last edited by say-and-sing; 07-03-2017 at 08:31 PM.


  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    Of course not all martial generals are able, hence Riboku's mentioning of Ouki. Seeing a 75 str "martial" general stab a few people is not getting any peasant aroused. Them watching some 98str general sending corpses flying left and right, waltzing through the enemy like a god, that is getting the heat up.
    At least, that is how it works for Riboku (and in the end, Hara) since if it was leadership Riboku was worrying about, he would not have gone out of his way talking about martial strength.
    Riboku didn't mention martial strength. He said a king or a martial general might be able to rally Sai. That doesn't mean that martial strength is necessary or sufficient. It's just that kings and martial generals tend to be the best at rallying and inspiring armies. SHK isn't as good at this as Ouki or Duke Hyou because he has far less experience at leading armies. It really has nothing at all to do with martial strength. Houken wouldn't be able to rally the people of Sai either.


    Eh, SHK really being a god-of-all-trades (instinct as well, perhaps) seems rather unoriginal. But I guess it can't be helped.
    Yet, if SHK is to become this mountain, he needs to keep his 96 leadership at least. So he would be able to rally Sai (lesser than Sei) AND use his enormous str. to bolster again. Unless you take down his leadership stat as well and have him earn it during a festive moment in Chu. If Hara is planning to do so, he should scrap the books immediately.
    His leadership will almost certainly be much higher
    when he's leading the armies of Chu as their king. Just as Sei would have far more trouble rallying the people of another country.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Wait...why are SHK's other attributes being debated here? He's obviously amazing at everything with the only question mark being where he stands between 'very good' and 'top tier' in a martial sense.
    The other guy thought that the fact that SHK thought he couldn't inspire the people of Sai reflected badly on his martial ability, rather than his leadership. It didn't really make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    What makes you think Saitaku has a clue about the specifics of how strong Moubu is? Do you think he's seen Moubu in a situation like he was vs Kanmei? If he hasn't, then that point simply can not be true. Likewise with Kaioku. You have to see Moubu's power to believe it. In fact SHK specifically stated that Moubu defies the normal thought process of a strategist, which Kaioku is to a T.
    The entire point was that Kaioku knew SHK was an extremely powerful martial general - which he is. SBK thought SHK was just the usual pencil pushing strategist who could not fight at all and that is why he was wrong + amazed. Kaioku was wrong with the specifics when he said he was = or close to Moubu. As I said, most strategists are physical fodder, which is why SHK is so incredible.
    Kaioku is the wrong person to compare SHK and Moubu directly though, because he has no true comprehension of how powerful Moubu is. He only knows both SHK/Moubu are very powerful and that SHK won in their only previous fight. You can be extremely powerful without being close to Moubu.
    I'm being flippant with the specifics of the details Kaioku knew about. All we do know is that SHK beat Moubu when they were younger and he uses that to form an opinion.
    You've not been able to explain how you believe Kaioku can possibly know in detail just how strong Moubu is, nor have you been able to explain the stats. In fact, Moubu had never shown anyone just how strong he was prior to the Kanmei fight, so again - how would Kaioku know? The same Kaioku who spends his time in the palace teaching students and creating strategies all day and not on the front lines.
    I changed my word from monster to 'incredible fighter'. Unless one has seen it, a strategist would not know, especially when they already have a bias, preconceived opinion.


    You have a lot of really bizarre opinions about strategists and their ability to understand martial strength.

    Shouheikun is pretty much the only person who understood Moubu's strength. He predicted everything that would happen on Moubu's battlefield, and thought he would come out on top against Kanmei. Yet you pretend to be baffled by the possibility that SHK's right hand man also has some sense of Moubu's strength.

    Kaioku is perhaps the most qualified person to compare SHK's and Moubu's strength, besides the two of them. That's why Hara chose him to explain SHK's strength to SBK and the reader. And no, the point was not that SHK is equal to Rokuomi or Juuteki. Hara could've just had Kaioku say that. Instead he had him confirm that SHK is not terribly far from the absolute strongest people.
    Last edited by barreltheif; 07-03-2017 at 09:27 PM.
    "What!? Obviously Doflamingo and any other New World saga antagonist can easily beat that Whitebeard pirate with the top hat whose name I forgot, the one who appeared for a few panels at Marineford. Also Barreltheif is my favorite poster on NF." - Eiichiro Oda (SBS)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    You have a lot of really bizarre opinions about strategists and their ability to understand martial strength.

    Shouheikun is pretty much the only person who understood Moubu's strength. He predicted everything that would happen on Moubu's battlefield, and thought he would come out on top against Kanmei. Yet you pretend to be baffled by the possibility that SHK's right hand man also has some sense of Moubu's strength.

    Kaioku is perhaps the most qualified person to compare SHK's and Moubu's strength, besides the two of them. That's why Hara chose him to explain SHK's strength to SBK and the reader. And no, the point was not that SHK is equal to Rokuomi or Juuteki. Hara could've just had Kaioku say that. Instead he had him confirm that SHK is not terribly far from the absolute strongest people.
    SHK is, sure. But do you think SHK told Kaioku "Moubu is X strong, I am Y strong"? How does Kaioku now specifically how good SHK is compared to a monster like Moubu? He's only going off what he's heard regarding Moubu, and that's assuming he can even truly grasp true martial might, given that he's a strategist who doesn't frequent the battlefield.

    And unless he's seen SHK go at it against top tiers, he only knows what he's heard about SHK when it's comparing him to top tiers, i.e he knows SHK once beat Moubu. That's why his opinion relative to both of them is flawed. He's very likely never seen anyone even close to Moubu go all out.

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