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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    SHK is, sure. But do you think SHK told Kaioku "Moubu is X strong, I am Y strong"? How does Kaioku now specifically how good SHK is compared to a monster like Moubu? He's only going off what he's heard regarding Moubu, and that's assuming he can even truly grasp true martial might, given that he's a strategist who doesn't frequent the battlefield.
    And unless he's seen SHK go at it against top tiers, he only knows what he's heard about SHK when it's comparing him to top tiers, i.e he knows SHK once beat Moubu. That's why his opinion relative to both of them is flawed. He's very likely never seen anyone even close to Moubu go all out.
    SHK is a strategist who doesn't frequent the battlefield. He's essentially in the same boat as Kaioku, just better than him. SHK knows better than anyone else in the world how strong Moubu is. Kaioku spends his whole life around SHK, and Moubu is SHK's best friend. You think that after decade or two hanging around them, he failed to get a sense of their strength?

    Not to mention that loads of people know roughly how strong Moubu is. He's a step above Tou and Duke Hyou, and on the same general level as Ouki. The surprising new information Kaioku gave the reader and SBK isn't about Moubu's strength; it's about SHK's. And Kaioku is almost uniquely qualified to inform us about SHK's strength.

    Why are you again bringing up SHK punching Moubu they were kids? Kaioku explicitly said that he's not talking about the past. Currently, SHK isn't terribly far below Moubu's level.
    Last edited by barreltheif; 07-03-2017 at 10:05 PM.
    "What!? Obviously Doflamingo and any other New World saga antagonist can easily beat that Whitebeard pirate with the top hat whose name I forgot, the one who appeared for a few panels at Marineford. Also Barreltheif is my favorite poster on NF." - Eiichiro Oda (SBS)

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    SHK is a strategist who doesn't frequent the battlefield. He's essentially in the same boat as Kaioku, just better than him. SHK knows better than anyone else in the world how strong Moubu is. Kaioku spends his whole life around SHK, and Moubu is SHK's best friend. You think that after decade or two hanging around them, he failed to get a sense of their strength?
    You don't understand. Kaioku spent years around SHK in the class room- how does that help him know exactly how strong SHK and Moubu really are martially? Rokuomi had spent years fighting alongside Tou without truly knowing his power. That's because he never saw Tou go full out. Rinbou spent years with Ouki and was also wrong. Words are not an accurate measurement tool.


    Not to mention that loads of people know roughly how strong Moubu is. He's a step above Tou and Duke Hyou, and on the same general level as Ouki. The surprising new information Kaioku gave the reader and SBK isn't about Moubu's strength; it's about SHK's. And Kaioku is almost uniquely qualified to inform us about SHK's strength.
    Kaioku uses SHK and Moubu's past to gauge his current strength, that is the point. It's an inaccurate tool.
    Why are you again bringing up SHK punching Moubu they were kids? Kaioku explicitly said that he's not talking about the past. Currently, SHK isn't terribly far below Moubu's level.
    Kaioku says:
    "There is no need to worry. Were you not aware? Back in my lord's youth, he was even stronger than Great General Moubu".

    Putting 2 + 2 together, we saw in the one shot (well in the first half, i havent seen the 2nd half), he's basing that on SHK beating Moubu in their fight. That's part of the source of Kaioku's information, therefore it is unreliable. Assuming Hara is sticking to the one shot - i think he'll change things since it was only ever a tool to get kingdom publicized rather than manga cannon. Hara could alter it and have SHK and Moubu train together with SHK winning for all we know, but until then the one shot is what we have to go by.

    Kaioku overestimates SHK. Partly bcos Hara loves a hype job as we've seen.
    Last edited by Kanki; 07-03-2017 at 10:45 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Assuming Hara is sticking to the one shot - i think he'll change things since it was only ever a tool to get kingdom publicized rather than manga cannon. Hara could alter it and have SHK and Moubu train together with SHK winning for all we know, but until then the one shot is what we have to go by.

    Kaioku overestimates SHK. Partly bcos Hara loves a hype job as we've seen.
    wasn't the one shot used is Riboku's one shot?

  4. #44
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    Let's take another approach:
    So basically, SHK was nearly as strong as Moubu yet decided not to go with Sei, despite Houken being the only person able to kill him (which unbeknownst to SHK, he wasn't thanks to The Duke) yet on the other hand, throwing away the chance to take out Houken, symbol of Zhao by himself with king-rallied troops because...

    - Qin armies needing direction? No
    - Ryofui threatening SHK with taking hostages or selling out to Riboku... that always seemed far-fetched. Plus if SHK is this one-man-army, it's better for Ryofui to have him out of his hair to give a really defenseless Kantan over to Riboku.
    - brake bonds with Ryofui: they immediately took a huge blow anyway; plus on the prospect of taking out GH, this seems like a small price.
    - which leaves: the "spoilerish reason"?
    Last edited by say-and-sing; 07-03-2017 at 11:10 PM.


  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    Let's take another approach:
    So basically, SHK was nearly as strong as Moubu yet decided not to go with Sei, despite Houken being the only person able to kill him (which unbeknownst to SHK, he wasn't thanks to The Duke) yet on the other hand, throwing away the chance to take out Houken, symbol of Zhao by himself with king-rallied troops because...- Qin armies needing direction? No
    - Ryofui threatening SHK with taking hostages or selling out to Riboku... that always seemed far-fetched. Plus if SHK is this one-man-army, it's better for Ryofui to have him out of his hair to give a really defenseless Kantan over to Riboku.
    - brake bonds with Ryofui: they immediately took a huge blow anyway; plus on the prospect of taking out GH, this seems like a small price.
    - which leaves: the "spoilerish reason"?

    I think you're saying that it didn't make sense that SHK didn't go to Sai, because he could've been a decisive factor. I agree. But this is true regardless of SHK's martial strength. SHK is a top tier strategist and a game changer in any battle, especially one like Sai, where Qin didn't have any top generals. This is true even if SHK is only a Rokuomi level fighter.

    The only explanation is that Hara is hiding SHK's strength, and he didn't want to take away the tension from the battle of Sai by having it be a showcase of SHK's strength+strategy.

    In addition to all this, I highly doubt that SHK could beat Houken. We know from Kaioku's statement that he's below Moubu, but somewhere not terribly far from him. Probably close to the Duke or Tou.
    Last edited by barreltheif; 07-04-2017 at 02:21 AM.
    "What!? Obviously Doflamingo and any other New World saga antagonist can easily beat that Whitebeard pirate with the top hat whose name I forgot, the one who appeared for a few panels at Marineford. Also Barreltheif is my favorite poster on NF." - Eiichiro Oda (SBS)

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    You don't understand. Kaioku spent years around SHK in the class room- how does that help him know exactly how strong SHK and Moubu really are martially? Rokuomi had spent years fighting alongside Tou without truly knowing his power. That's because he never saw Tou go full out. Rinbou spent years with Ouki and was also wrong. Words are not an accurate measurement tool.

    SHK understands Moubu's strength (and his own) better than anyone alive, except maybe Moubu. SHK spends his life strategizing. Kaioku also spends his life strategizing, alongside SHK. Yet you wonder how Kaioku could possibly have a decent understanding of SHK's and Moubu's strength. That's literally what you're saying. Wtf kind of logic is this?


    Kaioku uses SHK and Moubu's past to gauge his current strength, that is the point. It's an inaccurate tool.
    Kaioku says:
    "There is no need to worry. Were you not aware? Back in my lord's youth, he was even stronger than Great General Moubu".
    Kaioku overestimates SHK. Partly bcos Hara loves a hype job as we've seen.
    You're lost. You're not even looking at the right chapter. We're talking about the next chapter, where Kaioku says that currently, although Moubu is stronger, SHK is roughly on his general level. This is in contrast to their youth. It's the exact opposite of what you're saying.
    Last edited by barreltheif; 07-04-2017 at 04:55 AM.
    "What!? Obviously Doflamingo and any other New World saga antagonist can easily beat that Whitebeard pirate with the top hat whose name I forgot, the one who appeared for a few panels at Marineford. Also Barreltheif is my favorite poster on NF." - Eiichiro Oda (SBS)

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    Yeah, I'd also want to be led by someone who is physically strong. And preferably by someone with good instincts. And someone who is experienced and knowledgeable.

    You're lumping everything that can make someone a good general under the category of leadership. If you're going to conflate strategy and leadership, then we're done
    The leadership stat doesn't apply to military leadership, bit leadership in general. A leader, in a general sense, doesn't need to be physically strong. In general at least he needs to know what the fuck he is doing. Intelligence and experience are key to this, ability to punch people is not. A retard can't be a great leader. It's no coincidence the characters with high leadership scores are highly intelligent and experienced. Do you think great generals like Tou or Renpa would have gotten such high leadershio scores without their decades of experience or the wisdom to make the best decisions for their men? Don't be daft.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
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    The leadership stat doesn't apply to military leadership, bit leadership in general. A leader, in a general sense, doesn't need to be physically strong. In general at least he needs to know what the fuck he is doing. Intelligence and experience are key to this, ability to punch people is not. A retard can't be a great leader. It's no coincidence the characters with high leadership scores are highly intelligent and experienced. Do you think great generals like Tou or Renpa would have gotten such high leadershio scores without their decades of experience or the wisdom to make the best decisions for their men? Don't be daft.
    To be a good political leader, it helps to be knowledgeable about politics, economics, etc. To be a good general, it helps to be physically strong and knowledgeable about strategy. The leadership stat doesn't measure everything that can help make someone a good leader. That would include almost any kind of virtue or strength or skill at all.

    The leadership stat measures the attributes that are uniquely helpful to being a good leader. That includes things like the ability to:
    - attract talented subordinates who will follow you
    - identity exceptional talent and recruit it
    - inspire and rally people
    - confidently make quick decisions and convince people to follow them
    - earn the trust and devotion of your followers
    etc.

    Needless to say, leadership experience and wisdom help with these. Specific knowledge, like knowledge of strategy or economics, is not a part of this, and is a completely different kind of skill. Same for martial ability.

    When Ten was recruited by Mouten, she had zero leadership experience, and really didn't possess these skills much at all. She had to pick up these skills once she joined the HSU. What she possessed was an impressive knowledge of strategy, and that's why Mouten recruited her.
    "What!? Obviously Doflamingo and any other New World saga antagonist can easily beat that Whitebeard pirate with the top hat whose name I forgot, the one who appeared for a few panels at Marineford. Also Barreltheif is my favorite poster on NF." - Eiichiro Oda (SBS)

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by barreltheif View Post
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    SHK understands Moubu's strength (and his own) better than anyone alive, except maybe Moubu. SHK spends his life strategizing. Kaioku also spends his life strategizing, alongside SHK. Yet you wonder how Kaioku could possibly have a decent understanding of SHK's and Moubu's strength. That's literally what you're saying. Wtf kind of logic is this?
    Since when does Kaioku listening to SHK in the class room mean he has a true grasp on both SHK and Moubu's martial might, both individually and comparatively? That in itself is illogical. I can spend time with Mike Tyson's best friend, but unless I've Tyson go full out I will never truly comprehend his power. You have to see it, or have good battlefield experience yourself to understand Moubu.

    You've still not managed to explain how you think Hara made a mistake 3 different times with an important character like SHK whilst in your mind, being spot when rating the irrelevant DJ. How does that makes to anyone?

    Nor have you been able to explain how, if Kaioku can fully comprehend two martial beasts, why couldn't Rokuomi (a martial fighter) comprehend Tou? Why couldn't Rinbou comprehend Ouki? Those two didn't just spend time in a classroom, they fought on the battlefield. They should have a better understanding of martial might than Kaioku.

    You're lost. You're not even looking at the right chapter. We're talking about the next chapter, where Kaioku says that currently, although Moubu is stronger, SHK is roughly on his general level. This is in contrast to their youth. It's the exact opposite of what you're saying.
    I'm not lost - I'm saying Kaioku is clearly using his knowledge of their past to gauge their current power. Otherwise he would not have used it. He's saying SHK used to be stronger than Moubu, and given that Moubu is currently WSM and SHK will also have gotten stronger, he must also be top tier.

    This whole scene is a combination of SHK surprising us all by being a strategist with great martial skill (90) with false hype thrown in there, which Hara always does. Ranbihaku being able to give Ouki a close fight, for eg. That was false hype because there was circumstances behind that.

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