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  1. #41
    King of Connect 4 DoflaMihawk's Avatar
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    Can't wait for Ousen to praise Mouten and Ouhon gets jelly about it

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by coocoodas View Post
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    I sincerely didn't expect Mouten to be that good in reading Ousen, though. He is better than Ouhon in strategical ability?
    That was pretty much the case, SHK's top student and so on (until FD when Ouhon just replanned the whole thing in a matter of seconds). And it's good to see him getting hype from Ousen himself, much needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by coocoodas View Post
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    Since Ouhon is going against relatively unnamed Zhao general, Riboku only has Ousen's army to turn the tide and of course his hidden card Houken.
    Taking into account the way Shunsiju and Bananji were introduced and Banaji's actions during the planning phase, it would be really lame if Bananji turned out to be a Batei-rip off. He should be capable to hold his part.


  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by coocoodas View Post
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    More delayed Riboku's appearance is, the more it proves how fragile the hype pedestal Ousen is standing on.
    this.

    I sincerely didn't expect Mouten to be that good at reading Ousen, though. Is he better than Ouhon in strategical capability?
    it's always been like this. Even back in Sanyou, it was Mouten who planned the operation against Rinko.

    In real life battles tended to be a lot messier and unpredictable in every aspect that even the best of the best generals such as Hannibal, Napoleon, Caesars, etc came across numerous situations they could not possibly anticipate pre-battle unlike what Ousen did in this chapter. Depicting battles more realistically would have removed much of aura and characters these generals have in Kingdom.
    even while true that battles are so much open to the unpredictable from any edge, it's also true that generals of the caliber of those you mentioned were perfectly capable of an operation ala Ousen tilting Maikou to the left after using Mouten as bait. Actually, Hannibal did something similar in the Battle of Trebia (not identical situation, but same kind of operation) and it's not even regarded as one of his most memorable feats.

    What IS different is the way these operations are portrayed. In the move Ousen just did, we basically have been fed Kisui noticing the army in the distance, and in the blink of an eye Makou was already cleaving in half zhao soldiers left and right. Basically, Kingdom removes all the factors of "friction" (in this case: covering of distances and switching formations) to show the events in a much cleaner way that centers the spotlight on the tactic itself and to the mind who made the maneuver, keeping all the impact and awe of such a move in the eye of the readers.


  4. #44
    Ouhon becoming jealous of Mouten sounds amazing lol. Hara might reverse it later on when Ouhon pulls off a great martial feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    That was pretty much the case, SHK's top student and so on (until FD when Ouhon just replanned the whole thing in a matter of seconds). And it's good to see him getting hype from Ousen himself, much needed.

    .
    To be fair, for all the hype Ouhon got in the FD arc, he needed Kanjou to bail him out when he was about to be crushed by Eishi's formation.

  5. #45
    Excellent chapter.

    Mouten is such a cool character.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    even while true that battles are so much open to the unpredictable from any edge, it's also true that generals of the caliber of those you mentioned were perfectly capable of an operation ala Ousen tilting Maikou to the left after using Mouten as bait. Actually, Hannibal did something similar in the Battle of Trebia (not identical situation, but same kind of operation) and it's not even regarded as one of his most memorable feats.

    What IS different is the way these operations are portrayed. In the move Ousen just did, we basically have been fed Kisui noticing the army in the distance, and in the blink of an eye Makou was already cleaving in half zhao soldiers left and right. Basically, Kingdom removes all the factors of "friction" (in this case: covering of distances and switching formations) to show the events in a much cleaner way that centers the spotlight on the tactic itself and to the mind who made the maneuver, keeping all the impact and awe of such a move in the eye of the readers.
    (sorry for the wall)

    I agree with the statement. It would have taken at least half an hour or likely more before the contact after Kishu sighted Makou's force.

    That said, the removal of friction you mentioned seems to also significantly alter how tactics are utilized in the manga compared to real battles.

    In the battle of Trebia, Hannibal's flanking force led by Mago Barca advanced to the position of ambush a day before the battle took place during the cover of night. If they advanced to their position on the day of the battle as Mouten did, Romans would have easily prevented them from flanking.

    Mouten, on the other hand, magically teleported to the right side of his advancing enemy first with a half of his army vanishing and next the remaining half following without Kishu ever noticing. It means either Zhao scouts all fell asleep after their initial report or Kishu was so incompetent that he let Mouten move his pieces for 10 turns before he moved his own, if I am to make a turn-based game analogy. While battles are real-time, it is fought much like turn-based games since every action you take is responded by the enemy's reaction. Mouten must have taken couple hours to move the half of his army into the right flank of Kishu and it's inconceivable Kishu hadn't noticed it both times until it was too late. I would say that 'removal of friction' is what allows Kingdom's tactics to be far more flashy and complex compared to real life.

    In the Battle of Zama, Sciopio's cavalry was able to hit the rear of Hanninal's army only because Hannibal didn't spare any reserves and engaged Romans in a single line formation; Hannibal must have spotted Roman cavalry coming, but he simply couldn't react since it's not possible to pull away an army from engaged battleline and direct them elsewhere.

    However, unlike Hannibal, since Kishu's main army wasn't engaged with Moutens and all he did was to turn towards his right, he should have had ample time to rearrange his formation before Makou arrived. The only situation it would make sense is if Makou had somehow hid his troops in the forest positioned in the middle of Kishu and Mouten before the battle and suddenly appeared to ambush Kishu; but then, Kishu would probably have spotted it if he bothered to send out scouts to the forest he is exposing his flanks too.

    I do not want to nitpick, but I think many tactics in Kingdom are either greatly exaggerated or impossible to imitate in real battles. In Kingdom, Hira makes it look like that a straight-up frontal attack is only for the most incompetent generals(maybe except for the Mountain tribes), but in history lots of top generals simply resorted to standard tactics if their forces were superior because tricky maneuvers were far more restrictive than in the manga and more often than not, infeasible, not to mention that improvising counted more than pre-battle planned tactical maneuvers in most cases with few exceptions; those few exceptions tend to become well-known battles. It doesn't make Kingdom any less enjoyable, though. Kingdom is great and entertaining, just not that realistic.

    That said, I should say that Kingdom's battles are still by far more realistic than battles depicted in most other mangas such as The Heroic Legend of Arslan. That one is truly inexcusable in terms of realism. In fact I haven' come across a manga with more realistic battles portrayed in commander's perspectives than Kingdom yet.
    Last edited by coocoodas; 06-25-2017 at 06:56 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by coocoodas View Post
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    However, unlike Hannibal, since Kishu's main army wasn't engaged with Moutens and all he did was to turn towards his right, he should have had ample time to rearrange his formation before Makou arrived. The only situation it would make sense is if Makou had somehow hid his troops in the forest positioned in the middle of Kishu and Mouten before the battle and suddenly appeared to ambush Kishu; but then, Kishu would probably have spotted it if he bothered to send out scouts to the forest he is exposing his flanks too.
    [...]
    That said, I should say that Kingdom's battles are still by far more realistic than battles depicted in most other Mangas such as The Heroic Legend of Arslan. That one is truly inexcusable in terms of realism. In fact I haven' come across manga with more realistic battles than Kindom yet.
    Very interesting post.

    Scouting is best forgotten in Kingdom. And as already has been said, distances and other stuff is often neglected for dramatic purpose, but that is fine. I mean, this is the first campaign so far in which supplies play a role.

    Since you mentioned Hannbial and ancient China, what about "Ad Astra - Scipio to Hannibal" or "The Ravages Of Time"? I have not managed to read them completely so far.


  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    Very interesting post.

    Scouting is best forgotten in Kingdom. And as already has been said, distances and other stuff is often neglected for dramatic purpose, but that is fine. I mean, this is the first campaign so far in which supplies play a role.

    Since you mentioned Hannbial and ancient China, what about "Ad Astra - Scipio to Hannibal" or "The Ravages Of Time"? I have not managed to read them completely so far.
    You are right. Supplies didn't count until this campaign, which is definitely an improvement.

    I haven't read Ad Astra - Scipio to Hannibal and have only read the early part of The Ravages of Time. I got a Romance of the Three Kingdoms the novel vibe from TROT though, with strategists predicting every step of battles from start to finish without even being on the battlefield. It sometimes seemed more far fetched than Kingdom. I didn't really think much about army maneuvers when I was reading it so I couldn't really comment on that.

    However, people keep telling me how TROT is the best Romance of the Three Kingdoms manga, and I'm going to try to get into it again. Thanks for suggesting Ad Astra - Scipio to Hannibal, btw. I'm a sucker for these war mangas.
    Last edited by coocoodas; 06-25-2017 at 07:15 PM.

  9. #49
    http://sensescans.com/reader/content...71f6b5/005.png

    didn't expect Ousen to look so lanky next to Makou, Mouten with the unwavering stare

    I dunno about Makou boasting about having the best offense in the Ousen army, it reeks of Kanki's defense guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Ousen's hype really is insane lol. A few people used to think he couldn't be as great on the plains either
    now now, let's see how Makou will handle things first and Riboku's response

    Quote Originally Posted by coocoodas View Post
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    I sincerely didn't expect Mouten to be that good at reading Ousen, though. Is he better than Ouhon in strategical capability?
    I always thought Mouten was the better strategist while Ouhon was the better unit tactician

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  10. #50
    Bokko = realistic war portrayal
    ROT = everyone is genius and the war is portrayed like massive multiplayer online game for fuck sake
    Wolfsmund = realistic as fuck
    Kingdom = exaggerated army formation and numbers plus superhuman fighting scene = The Lord Of The Rings
    Arslan Senki = only retarded watched this show
    ad astra scipio to hannibal = grounded and realistic
    Guin Saga = Game of thrones+TLOR

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    I dunno about Makou boasting about having the best offense in the Ousen army, it reeks of Kanki's defense guy. now now, let's see how Makou will handle things first and Riboku's response
    Nah, I think he was legit. Makou and Akou seem to be the two highest in his army whereas the Kanki guy was ranked even lower than Kokugou.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    Nah, I think he was legit. Makou and Akou seem to be the two highest in his army whereas the Kanki guy was ranked even lower than Kokugou.
    well, the Kanki guy was a unit commander after all

    I dunno, I don't take kindly to smug people hyping themselves, he could be a Kanou level guy and get reality checked by Batei next chapter (I hope not though).

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  13. #53
    So Akou and Makou are actually generals huh? Make sense given how many troops they have under their command.

  14. #54
    say-and-sing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coocoodas View Post
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    You are right. Supplies didn't count until this campaign, which is definitely an improvement.
    Though I believe it's a one time wonder.

    Quote Originally Posted by coocoodas View Post
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    However, people keep telling me how TROT is the best Romance of the Three Kingdoms manga, and I'm going to try to get into it again. Thanks for suggesting Ad Astra - Scipio to Hannibal, btw. I'm a sucker for these war mangas.
    How was Sangokushi in comparison? Also:

    First arc of Vinland Saga
    Bokko - guy helps small city to defend itself against an army of I think 1.500 men; great for a long time with some awesome ideas I wish Hara would take inspiration from; nice portrayal of foe and friends alike; yet sadly it jumped the shark for me completely at one point, though for the life for me I can't remember why. Still, highly recommended, enjoy it while it lasts.

    Wolfsmund - pesants lay siege to a small, well defend pass-castle; very! gory but intense and realistic

    Gunka no balzer - has a rather interesting training episode and the first small battle (15 men vs. 120 cavalry or something like that) is pretty cool - but I've only read it once and it has been ages, so beware; rather usual, "flashy"

    Ares - has two larger battles which probably resemble Kingdom the most, with different units (and their own Houken, though this guy listens to noone) but all in all, formations etc. are pretty basic and the main aspect are duels; plus there are some modern elements (sneaker, body-balloons to take a castle). One of my evergreens, but I can see why it would not be everyon'e cup of tea.


  15. #55
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    Better chapter than expected. I'm Kind of surprised that Mouten did really see so far into Ousen's plan. That is incredibly impressive for him. In any case, still waiting for the response of Riboku to all these developments, unless he just plans on waiting this one round out. The war had better get real gritty for the Qin soon enough.

  16. #56
    Proven that mouten > kisui
    Wtf zhao become so weak, if riboku do nothing to help kisui, left wing will as good as gone. I see mouten will fight that fast guy from zhao. Kisui too weak to handle shit...

    Lost 5000 units already, fucking kisui screw up so bad. How come he is hyped to be great general if hes like this. I guess losing ryutou did cost his army big time after all.
    Last edited by Joseph3gun; 06-26-2017 at 03:43 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph3gun View Post
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    Proven that mouten > kisui
    Wtf zhao become so weak, if riboku do nothing to help kisui, left wing will as good as gone. I see mouten will fight that fast guy from zhao. Kisui too weak to handle shit...

    Lost 5000 units already, fucking kisui screw up so bad. How come he is hyped to be great general if hes like this. I guess losing ryutou did cost his army big time after all.
    Kisui lost on the first day when he didn't even know who his real opponents were. Mouten 'won', but he also had a more stacked deck than Kisui. Plus, losing 5k on the first day isn't critical (yet). Keisha got the better of Kanki on the first day and look what happened.

    Now, Kisui knows exactly what he's up against. This battle is still on completely, though I expect it to end in a Qin victory.

  18. #58
    It was pretty foolish of Kisui to dedicate all of his forces onto Mouten like that. As though Ousen would have just sent some 5k commander to solo his entire 30k army without any follow up plan in store. I'm waiting for Kisui to at least show something respectable given how he was built up, but he keeps fumbling whenever the ball is in his court.

  19. #59
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    Let's not forget that Hara handels numbers/losses rather creatively.

    I hope at least some of the 5.000 Zhao managed to do some damage to Qin before falling. Plus Kanki had to deal with 5.000 on the way, Ouhon had a Zhao encounter, then there was the taking of Retsubi and the small castles surrounding Gyou, yet Ousen has not done a big deduction due to losses when he split Qin troops. Though I did not find the initial numbers (Zhao mentions 200.000 twice), so this arc, things might be different
    Last edited by say-and-sing; 06-26-2017 at 06:05 PM.


  20. #60
    Who is the first Big Head to die first in this Arc? Any Guesses {Kisui/Makou}.

    Will Riboku die in this Arc?

    My prediction for next chapter is "Riboku Counter Move"

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