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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    Keisha will counter this "flexibility" with the fact that the forest Comp has great synergy. They have all worked for Keisha. They know him, as he do them.
    Kisui and Ryuutou only work with him once. Unlike some generals like SHK-Moubu, they never show synergies with Keisha
    Gakuei isn't that impressive to begin with. We never see him covering Keisha's lose end either. He'll just follow Keisha orders

    Keisha's instinct is seriously lacking to sense traps. He didn't even notice the death trap that Kanki made for him.
    Considering his style, Keisha might actually just ask Kisui to try attacking the trap just because he want to get something to be used to attack, just like what happen in Kokuyou with him attacking HSU

    Instinct generals usually try to get something to be used to attack. My passive play at the beginning is a perfect trap for impatient instinct type like Keisha
    Ouki isn't facing only Riboku. He is facing Riboku, Gekishin, and Keisha. Kaioku is well and good, but he arrives late, and he arrives as reinforcement. He won't have a good grasp over the situation, and by that point the situation is already heavily in my favor
    And Ouki isn't alone. Earl Shi is enough to deal with Gekishin while Ouki can play around with Keisha and Riboku.
    Both of them is also a monster in front line. Ouki can tilt the battle via Morale alone just by showing up in the front lines

    Ouki can convey the situation when calling Kaioku, plus a 30k fresh troops with a strong front line general like Gaimou suddenly bragging in to a 80k vs 70k will be a great threat no matter what the situation.

    There's no way the situation will be so heavily in your situation since Riboku and Gekishin and Keisha have nothing decisive to put down Earl Shi and Ouki who wasn't even going too aggressive in the beginning
    Last edited by gn_x00; 06-05-2017 at 12:52 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    How am I shooting myself in the foot? Are you stupid? They are the commanders of the army. They can see the whole battlefield from there. Try to control it? They are controlling it. Its not that far, and messages can easily signaled. They can see the enemy troop movement easily enough. They will put up some flags, signal the troops, and they will obey. They are the position Keisha had when he fought Duke Hyou, and he was a lot more successful than when he fought with his troops. This is the position Karin had. This is the position Mougou had. This is the position Riboku had. I am not using them as warriors. I am using them as Tacticians.

    The plains will be won. Keisha is there for a reason, and that is to assist Gekishin and Riboku. The plains battle will be Rinboku/Gekishin/Keisha vs Ouki. Ouki is good, but he isn't that good. He will be outplayed. Earl Shi and Gaimou won't matter much. Sure they are strong, but they are utilized as a fighting force, and not as tacticians. They can handle the micro vs Ordo and Such to a minor degree, but they are loosing the macro battle quite spectacularly.
    if you didn't notice, your Keisha army is in the thick forest and are moving further away. Even Riboku had reaction time problems against Gekishin in the forest, an instinct heavy general who is worse than him at coordinating isn't doing as well as you think he would. He's not going to get the full picture.

    Keisha was in the plains against Duke Hyou and already set up his formations to receive the Duke. Notice how intently he was staring at the Duke's movements. Karin was in the plains as well and I already covered Riboku who's the best of your three council. I never said they were going to be used as warriors but a tactician in the field at the scene reacts way better in both speed and tactical decisions than one who has his ass parked in the HQ waiting for flags while the intricate details of the engagements are covered up by trees. I'm giving you the plains one, since there's way better visibility and Riboku/Gekishin are tag teaming that.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    I'm giving you the plains one, since there's way better visibility and Riboku/Gekishin are tag teaming that.
    2 vs 2 is not tag teaming

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    2 vs 2 is not tag teaming
    fatal foursome?
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  5. #25
    Crispickle's Avatar
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    i think seikai and houken are kind of cut off from everything here. Nord just wastes mougou but that's hardly a relevant loss.

    i like riboku and keisha sharing the HQ, although i'm not sure what gekishin is supposed to offer them sitting at the same table. Probably some tea?

    i see nord slightly ahead, i'll leave the vote as a placeholder

    [Nord]


    the centre is his, keisha+riboku is too much for ouki+earlshi especially if they're the ones defending, the sneak attack is at the very least blocked by Kisui. Having a vague strat isn't necessarily bad, and it's pretty affordable when you can rely on a duo like that.


  6. #26


    Apparently Keisha > Gekishin

    Keisha who's not even 6 Qin level with Riboku manage to decisively beat Ouki and Earl Shi, 6 Qin GG and Wei Fire Dragon

    Kisui somehow manage to block Kyouen who managed to burn Renpa and trade blows with Qin 6 like Kyou without any details

    Meanwhile Gaimou is missing and Houken is cut off from the rest of the team mysteriously

    He probably didn't even read half of my strats and sadly his vote will be valid.... If this post won't make Crispy thinks anything is strange, I won't even bother to argue this
    Last edited by gn_x00; 06-05-2017 at 08:06 AM.

  7. #27
    Crispickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    Apparently Keisha > Gekishin

    Keisha who's not even 6 Qin level with Riboku manage to decisively beat Ouki and Earl Shi, 6 Qin GG and Wei Fire Dragon

    Kisui somehow manage to block Kyouen who managed to burn Renpa and trade blows with Qin 6 like Kyou without any details
    this is all about opinions, leaving this be since this is not the battledome.

    Meanwhile Gaimou is missing and Houken is cut off from the rest of the team mysteriously
    at all. If earl shi is barely a flea buzzing in the ear for riboku+keisha, imagine what gaimou can be

    seems to me the clauses don't leave houken room to move. I did think it was weird, but that's what i see. Maybe tell me if i'm missing something


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    at all. If earl shi is barely a flea buzzing in the ear for riboku+keisha, imagine what gaimou can be

    seems to me the clauses don't leave houken room to move. I did think it was weird, but that's what i see. Maybe tell me if i'm missing something
    You conveniently forget the red arrows which indicates Gaimou is to join the forest team to attack together with Kyouen

    And Nord's forest team arrows which make them move to my place

    And your dear Kisui almost die from Zenou's single swing, somehow you think Gaimou will be a non factor

  9. #29
    Crispickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    You conveniently forget the red arrows which indicates Gaimou is to join the forest team to attack together with Kyouen

    And Nord's forest team arrows which make them move to my place

    And your dear Kisui almost die from Zenou's single swing, somehow you think Gaimou will be a non factor
    why do you even use words like "conveniently" when I have no reason to partake for one or the other? Please drop the attitude.

    honestly, i haven't seen the arrow that brings him to kyouen, in fact i was having hard time thinking how he was going to fulfill the "combine with kyouen" clause without passing through the battlefield that is riboku's playground.

    i still see it as a complicated operation (there's a lot of distance to go especially through forest) and i still don't see kyouen's army triumphing over kisui, gakuei and ryuutou as easily as you do.


  10. #30
    You guys really need to stop being so passive or outright vague when making your strategies. I mean they appear to be good and all but they still lack something crucial to make voting or judging the actual outcome easy, since they leave one unable to picture how the engagements will turn out when the troops clash.

    On the battle at hand, I see most are in agreement that the crucial clash is in the center, due to both wings on either side move with extreme caution and are at risk of not seeing a battle take place.

    For the center battlefield Gn has marshaled out capable field commanders to actively take part in the frontlines while Nord approached it cautiously by having his commanders remain at the HQ. Which means that Nord's commanders will try to manipulate the battlefield from the rear while Gn's will be able to make on spot decision on the frontlines.

    The outcome of the engagement in the center then boils down to whether the tactics manipulated by Nord's commanders in the HQ will prevail over Gn's commanders actively on the fronlines. We have all witnessed impacts Gn's commanders made when leading on the frontlines and how effective tactic manipulation is on the battles on the plains.

    So is will Nord's tactics prevail without having a good field commander on the frontlines or will Gn's commanders on the frontlines fail to overcome Nord's tactics.

  11. #31
    Knight of Elegance Aliasniamor's Avatar
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    Despite gn's team being better rounded it seems, I don't see what Houken really does with Gaimou in the forest, and I think that part of the map is gonna go in favour of Nord eventually, while on the plains, against Riboku and with such a scale for the battle taking place I'm not sure Ouki can win and I see the forest team coming to Riboku's help in the end and giving Nord's the win, even if only barely.


    [Nordlending]

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliasniamor View Post
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    Despite gn's team being better rounded it seems, I don't see what Houken really does with Gaimou in the forest,
    uhm... wrecking Nord's forest team? going out to attack Nord's HQ or flank?

    and I think that part of the map is gonna go in favour of Nord eventually, while on the plains, against Riboku and with such a scale for the battle taking place I'm not sure Ouki can win
    70k vs 80k?
    the difference in number isn't even big, and it's only half the troops

    and I see the forest team coming to Riboku's help in the end and giving Nord's the win, even if only barely.
    and what my forest team doing when i give them direction to attack? Nord doesn't even tell his troops to do anything and somehow they are moving while half of my troops are not even moving for some reason!

    are you also saying that Kisui will be able to defeat Kyouen, Gaimou and Houken with all other support generals when outnumbered, outmuscled, having less generals and having less brain? when his troops arrow indicate that he will come near my troops?

    seriously... why even bother with map and clauses at all if people don't even see them?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
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    On the battle at hand, I see most are in agreement that the crucial clash is in the center, due to both wings on either side move with extreme caution and are at risk of not seeing a battle take place.
    it's actually the other way around.

    Plain battle only encompass half of the troops. They have no decisive advantage over another. The position of the wings are important because the plain will be at a stalemate

    My army has an attacking clause if the enemy isn't coming, which isn't the case with Nord's arrow showing they move near to my position. but even if they don't move, why won't the other half of my army move when i clearly tell them to attack if no enemy comes to them?
    Last edited by gn_x00; 06-05-2017 at 04:50 PM.

  13. #33
    Knight of Elegance Aliasniamor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    uhm... wrecking Nord's forest team? going out to attack Nord's HQ or flank?
    Nord's HQ has been mentioned to be relocatable (if it wasn't a word before, it is now ). As for Houken, I don't see who he would consider of enough value to battle except for Riboku and guys in your team. THe dude is quite hard to manipulate correctly and I see him doing as he pleases more often than not. heck, if he was completely in character I'd see him challenging Gaimou and then Ouki in this battle. But I'll just consider he fights tigers in the jungle while the battle is happening, because him fighting Ouki wouldn't be kind for you


    70k vs 80k?
    the difference in number isn't even big, and it's only half the troops
    I'm not talking about the difference in numbers but about the numbers themselves : with such scales for the battle, I see Riboku edging Ouki out (the argument would be the same for a 80kvs80k battle).


    and what my forest team doing when i give them direction to attack?

    are you also saying that Kisui will be able to defeat Kyouen, Gaimou and Houken with all other support generals when outnumbered, outmuscled, having less generals and having less brain?

    seriously... why even bother with map and clauses at all if people don't even see them?
    As I said above, Houken is more of a liability than a help, as for your forest team having more brain : I rate Kisui quite high and isn't Keisha controlling matters too ? Not to forget that the strategy was designed beforehand by the "counsel" (or whatever the name Nord gave to his 3 generals). If needs be to react to what's happening to the plain or to something hat wasn't accounted for in the original plan I see Keisha being the best general (outside of Renpa) to react quickly given his instinct.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliasniamor View Post
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    Nord's HQ has been mentioned to be relocatable (if it wasn't a word before, it is now ).
    and who will command the plain team when they are relocating?

    none. they will get butchered since no one is in the field and everyone is relocating. Plus what's stopping my troops that attack the HQ to attack the enemy rear if chasing enemy HQ is impossible?

    As for Houken, I don't see who he would consider of enough value to battle except for Riboku and guys in your team. THe dude is quite hard to manipulate correctly and I see him doing as he pleases more often than not. heck, if he was completely in character I'd see him challenging Gaimou and then Ouki in this battle. But I'll just consider he fights tigers in the jungle while the battle is happening, because him fighting Ouki wouldn't be kind for you
    The rule of this game dude... It's even there in the opening post
    Characters are in character except when it severely compromises team synergy i.e. Houken wanting to challenge any strong general on his team.
    Houken is perfectly usable because of it.

    I'm not talking about the difference in numbers but about the numbers themselves : with such scales for the battle, I see Riboku edging Ouki out (the argument would be the same for a 80kvs80k battle).
    i still see it's stalemate tbh. even if he edge it, it's still nothing decisive since Riboku has shown us he has nothing decisive to do

    As I said above, Houken is more of a liability than a help,
    already address above that Houken is not a liability

    as for your forest team having more brain : I rate Kisui quite high and isn't Keisha controlling matters too ? Not to forget that the strategy was designed beforehand by the "counsel" (or whatever the name Nord gave to his 3 generals).
    If Riboku needs to divide his attention, you think he'll be able to perfectly do things so perfectly right with Ouki? If he can really do that, he should just do that in Banyou when Ouki is controlling peasants instead of soldiers, but he can't

    If needs be to react to what's happening to the plain or to something hat wasn't accounted for in the original plan I see Keisha being the best general (outside of Renpa) to react quickly given his instinct.
    you still don't say anything about my forest team other than suddenly Houken is killing my own troops.

    Heck, even without Houken as muscle, then Gaimou is still there as muscle. Kyouen is there with his aggressiveness that managed to clash with Kyou and Renpa. Nord forest team is also outnumbered 40k to 70k

  15. #35
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    I'm still unsure how the whole forest thing will play out, I just got home so I haven't had time to read through the thread.
    I'm gonna [Draw] for now, hopefully I make it in time to properly weigh the odds.

  16. #36
    Void - vote draw, still doesn't have an answer why my forest team can't attack something which obviously isn't hiding in the forest

    Alias - had played the game since CYK 1 iirc, and yet vote Nord simply because he thinks Houken will kill my own troops in the forest. an exact example of such thing being "ignored" is posted in the rule/condition battle since CYK 1.

    Zentos - vote draw just to make sure he doesn't get penalty

    oh well

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  17. #37
    I see you've given up
    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    Kaioku has better brain than Ryuutou or Kisui or even Keisha
    beats Ryuutou by 1 point but difference is that the latter 3 have experience in the forest while all he's been shown is siege defense and lecturing. I'll take the latter 3 over that one point difference in the forest all day.

    SBK has more real life experience than all of them.
    this doesn't matter when he's too mediocre

    Heki has shown himself as a well rounded general which isn't hindered by terrain
    yeah, he used the mountain against Kyouen's troops but he's by the book and he's not going to be better than Nord's three in the forest here.

    Granted, Heki and SBK are defending so they don't really need to outsmart anyone, especially with Kyouen attacking the back of the enemy army, I think.

    Kyouen has his arrows to do the commanding in marco scale.
    always assumed that his arrows were a form of micromanaging

    while there won't be any duel, there's nothing stopping Gaimou either to wreck the enemy's soldiers.
    The enemy won't be hiding in the forest because they try to go out of the forest and flank my plain team (see Nord's map arrows), it won't really be hard to check where they are. While they might be able to try running away after they see my troops, there's no idiots in my army who will let them go

    and it's not like ambushes when my army chase them will have great effect with Houken and Gaimou crushing anyone who jump out to ambush them

    We're also talking about Houken who wonders into enemy camp in forest for night walk and pretty much solo thousands of enemy soldiers lol
    meh, Gaimou can kill soldiers but I don't think it'll be a big game changer unless he can catch and kill one of Nord's officers.

    Careful now, you have two mediocre guys and a hyper aggressive general with two meatheads, I wouldn't put it past Nord's guys to ambush you with great effect, especially on the sides.



    Bayou is considered a heavy forested area, and we see how all of Qin armies are perfectly able to see the HQ flag (until they go too far like Moubu), they should be able to see the arrows since they know it will be coming.
    But the flag is big and on an elevated area in a certain direction. Kyouen has arrows that are slimmer than tree branches.

    So after some consideration and Nord's feedback, I'd say the forest battle looks clearer. gn has the slight advantage until his Gaimou/Kaioku army gets there. They have a good chance of overwhelming Nord's forest team and taking it to Keisha but I dunno how that would turn out from there. Nord can move his HQ and he still has his untouched Ordo army in the cliffs so I'd still say [draw]
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    I see you've given up
    when 3 people blantantly insult me by bringing out headcanon, didn't read rules, and didn't even read the strats of the match to vote, then yeah. why i actually bother responding this is just because i'm idling in my workplace since i got no data that i can work on yet

    beats Ryuutou by 1 point but difference is that the latter 3 have experience in the forest while all he's been shown is siege defense and lecturing. I'll take the latter 3 over that one point difference in the forest all day.

    yeah, he used the mountain against Kyouen's troops but he's by the book and he's not going to be better than Nord's three in the forest here.
    i'm really curious why you put Ryuutou and Kisui that high in the bar of the forest battle tbh.. can you enlighten me what did he do in Kokuyou arc that i might forget?
    > "ambushing HSU"
    Half of it's great effect is credited to Batei which managed to fend off Shin. Had Batei is not even there, Shin would be able to clear the ambushes mid diff at best. In this scenario he has no batei, and Gaimou/Houken is there

    > hill feint
    uh... other than PIS on Ten, this is not even a forest battle

    > Subsequent tactic on forest
    Ten read it completely and fend off the night attack easily

    > River defence
    not even a forest battle

    > attacking HSU's flank
    i don't even need to count it into forest battle? anyway, it's actually a result of Kanki's strange tactic to "sacrifice" HSU to Keisha

    > Kisui saving Keisha
    not even sure if it's a forest battle. Anyway, Kisui barely alive because of Rigan's morale to protect the hometown.

    > Kisui taking the hill
    uh... Kanki abandon it

    > Hill fortification
    no hill in sight for this scenario

    always assumed that his arrows were a form of micromanaging
    it's micro managing at a marco scale. Why else is it so trouble some if it's just normal micro managing?

    meh, Gaimou can kill soldiers but I don't think it'll be a big game changer unless he can catch and kill one of Nord's officers.
    it pretty much nulls the enemy ambush strategy though... especially when Ten can read it just fine after a few encounter, why Kaioku can't

    Careful now, you have two mediocre guys and a hyper aggressive general with two meatheads, I wouldn't put it past Nord's guys to ambush you with great effect, especially on the sides.
    Kaioku is there with clause to take coution of enemy traps

    anyway, why are they suddenly ambushing my troops when Nord's arrow indicate they need to move out to the plain instead? you still doesn't answer this yet as far as i remember

    But the flag is big and on an elevated area in a certain direction. Kyouen has arrows that are slimmer than tree branches.
    fair point, but even in heavily forested Kokuyou, there's still enough spaces here and there to actually see the sky clearly.

    So after some consideration and Nord's feedback, I'd say the forest battle looks clearer. gn has the slight advantage until his Gaimou/Kaioku army gets there. They have a good chance of overwhelming Nord's forest team and taking it to Keisha but I dunno how that would turn out from there. Nord can move his HQ and he still has his untouched Ordo army in the cliffs so I'd still say [draw]
    moving HQ indicate that they will be abandoning commanding the troops in the plain until they set up new HQ and communication network.

    no officers in the plain area other than Mangoku. You think Mangoku can cover 80k army movement instead of Ouki and Earl Shi taking the good chance to reverse the disadvantage of the plain battle?

    also, what are my forest troops do after the HQ relocate? If they keep chasing the HQ, then Riboku won't be commanding for a long time. If they can't keep chase, they will crash into the plain and make the advantage even bigger for me

    the best location for HQ to move is Ordo's fort. in which my army might be hard to chase it down because it is fortified, but at that point Riboku will have it harder to command the plain troops and some of my forest team can crash into the plain to attack the enemy rear just like what Renpa did with Ousen's fort.

    Number should be 30k Ordo (5k of them is mountain climber) + unspecified number in the HQ. vs the leftover of my 70k army. not an impossible number for a siege, although If Ouki is that hard pressed as some people claimed, then it's obvious saving him will come first

    Plus Gaimou and Houken is using fast cavalry horses, they might catch up the commanders running away easily like what Guan Yu did with his red hare
    Last edited by gn_x00; 06-06-2017 at 02:45 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    i'm really curious why you put Ryuutou and Kisui that high in the bar of the forest battle tbh.. can you enlighten me what did he do in Kokuyou arc that i might forget?
    > "ambushing HSU"
    Half of it's great effect is credited to Batei which managed to fend off Shin. Had Batei is not even there, Shin would be able to clear the ambushes mid diff at best. In this scenario he has no batei, and Gaimou/Houken is there

    > hill feint
    uh... other than PIS on Ten, this is not even a forest battle

    > Subsequent tactic on forest
    Ten read it completely and fend off the night attack easily

    > River defence
    not even a forest battle

    > attacking HSU's flank
    i don't even need to count it into forest battle? anyway, it's actually a result of Kanki's strange tactic to "sacrifice" HSU to Keisha

    > Kisui saving Keisha
    not even sure if it's a forest battle. Anyway, Kisui barely alive because of Rigan's morale to protect the hometown.

    > Kisui taking the hill
    uh... Kanki abandon it

    > Hill fortification
    no hill in sight for this scenario
    His feats prove that he can maneuver in the forest and do it well. No Batei but he has Kisui and Gakuei to take care of such matters. Now, whether they'll handle it like Batei did and engage the enemy personally is another matter.


    it's micro managing at a marco scale. Why else is it so trouble some if it's just normal micro managing?
    reaction speed and better visibility, with flags and smoke you'd have to have a guy to watch and interpret it to the rest of the army but arrows can show even the dumbest scrubs where they should advance.


    it pretty much nulls the enemy ambush strategy though... especially when Ten can read it just fine after a few encounter, why Kaioku can't


    Kaioku is there with clause to take coution of enemy traps

    anyway, why are they suddenly ambushing my troops when Nord's arrow indicate they need to move out to the plain instead? you still doesn't answer this yet as far as i remember
    okay, are we talking of the initial Nord flank or when your army is beating Nord's army back? Because Kaioku and Gaimou are not there for the first in my book and I'm talking of the second which is not a night ambush (is that what your Ten point is?).


    fair point, but even in heavily forested Kokuyou, there's still enough spaces here and there to actually see the sky clearly.
    not consistent enough for me to give you a definite Kyouen win over Nord's army but it doesn't really matter now at this point


    moving HQ indicate that they will be abandoning commanding the troops in the plain until they set up new HQ and communication network.

    no officers in the plain area other than Mangoku. You think Mangoku can cover 80k army movement instead of Ouki and Earl Shi taking the good chance to reverse the disadvantage of the plain battle?

    also, what are my forest troops do after the HQ relocate? If they keep chasing the HQ, then Riboku won't be commanding for a long time. If they can't keep chase, they will crash into the plain and make the advantage even bigger for me

    the best location for HQ to move is Ordo's fort. in which my army might be hard to chase it down because it is fortified, but at that point Riboku will have it harder to command the plain troops and some of my forest team can crash into the plain to attack the enemy rear just like what Renpa did with Ousen's fort.

    Number should be 30k Ordo (5k of them is mountain climber) + unspecified number in the HQ. vs the leftover of my 70k army. not an impossible number for a siege, although If Ouki is that hard pressed as some people claimed, then it's obvious saving him will come first

    Plus Gaimou and Houken is using fast cavalry horses, they might catch up the commanders running away easily like what Guan Yu did with his red hare
    I dunno how exactly Nord has set up his communication network but given how I assume he would still keep the high ground while moving, it's more along the lines of a Fuuki HQ relocation than a Chousou HQ relocation.

    This is why I don't wanna go into exact details. I'm working under the assumption that your forest army after Kaioku and Gaimou come to reinforce will not be unscathed but if they do win against Kisui, then they can press on to Keisha with those reinforcements. I'm also assuming Riboku and co. will only evacuate if Keisha's side is under threat from being overrun while they are undersiege, not at first sight of encroachment. This means that they won't be quickly free to chase Riboku right away nor break siege and be able to crash into the plains. Also, this is also an assumption that Keisha will stay to take the fall.

    Red Hare is a legendary horse, even comparing it to your fast generic cavalry is ridiculous
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  20. #40
    it's 2-2 for Nord-draw and since draw is a neutral vote, Nord wins this match
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