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  1. #41
    Have been following war games you have going on for quite a while but one thing that has always bugged me is that you guys tend to over exaggerate the strength of certain generals, armies, units, ballistas, war chariots and even siege towers.

    I know this wars are for fun but you end up killing the fun if you don't remain true to what the manga has given us in the first place its not like any of the things I mentioned being exaggerated can not be dealt with given the right circumstances as we see in the manga strategy and tactics are used to give all this things the edge they need to win over their opponents.

    Like in this match the ballistas are not even used the way they are intended as we saw how GHM used them during the coalition war which made the whole match crumble since their power cannot be estimated when used in place of arrows showed at soldiers rather than walls as they were intended by their creator and seriously can a siege tower be used when sieging a mountain fort or a hill given the terrain.

    War chariots can be dealt with if one knows their weak point as we have seen in the battles between the Duke and the Wei. While zombie troops might be hard to kill when faced with veterans they fall just like any normal troops just like we have seen elites cumble in the face of other elites and we have also seen elites crumble before the power of average troops with greater morale what m trying to point out here is that in war anyone can bite the dust given the right circumstances no one and anything is invincible.

    About generals and their preferred battlefields or terrains is not safe to assume that every general is able to tackle any given terrain until proven otherwise and not assume that they can't just because we seen them triumph on a specific battlefield or terrain and not on others considering at most we have only be shown one or two battlefields or terrain per General in the manga so far.

    On to Moubu who causes the most controversial debates about his martial might which can supposedly land him a victory against anyone on the plains I really guys as much as I agree that Moubu is certainly dangerous on the plains do you really believe he can overcome the difference in numbers with just his martial might and against all those top tier Generals I have seen him being compared to excluding the likes of Rihaku and Kousonryu who are pretty much lightweights. I mean if he could he would not have used SHK's strategy against the Chu and just charged the head on with his whole army like Beiman said he should have done to remain the Moubu the had heard of.

    Anyway I was not trying to appear smart or anything just expressing my opinion on how I see this war games and since I quite enjoy them I would like to see more strategy than just relying on the exaggerated power of things such as ballistas and siege towers which I personally think their use should be limited to city or wall siege battles.

  2. #42
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    i've read your posts, however i can't really post myown arguments since it seems to be time consuming because i want to break down your posts into parts and reply them individually.

    that's why i haven't vote yet, since i haven't really address arguments.

    i'm slacking off at work right now, so can't really do that time consuming process. gonna reply your posts in 2 - 3 hours.
    I would appreciate that, because what you and Void have done at the moment is butchered my clauses(which are usually seen as Word of God), while ignoring Nord's(like Mangoku not attacking until enemies are really close), and what's even worse, you are butchering them with featless weapons that were NEVER used like that in the Kingdom universe.

    I have taken specifice measures against stupidity outbursts of my generals(via clauses) and there is no reason why they would suicide like you are trying to imply. Might as well have my next tactic with only 1 clause: go all togther and shoot or something. Because as of this match, I do not see why I should bother with more intelligent clauses.

    As far as the fight that you are forcing, Ouhon(93) kills Mangoku(88) without suffering a single cut, while Mouten and Kyouen can tag team Ranbihaku.

    @adage;

    I agree. Siege weapons and ballistas are given uses which do not exist in Kingdom, for some reason.
    And the only feat chariots have is kiling some random militas.
    Last edited by Zentos; 03-21-2017 at 10:12 AM.

  3. #43
    The Dragon of Katsurahama Nordlending's Avatar
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    They will die, not because they fight my generals, but because they walked into a disaster zone. They don't actually intercept (if I understood that word correctly.) my army before they are way underway. The scattered lines are either through my camp or far away. If they try to retreat they have to turn around on a very bad area, which is a very muddy river. That's not even taking into consideration how the huge ballista's arrows will hinder cavalry from moving as good as they want.


    The real world is cold! The real world doesn't care about spirit! You want to be a hero? Then play the part and die like every other Huntsman in history! As for me, I'll do what I do best: lie, steal, cheat and survive!

  4. #44
    I kinda feel like ballistas are being given way too much credit IMO. I kinda like Nord's strat more, but I honestly am not sure who would win untill i read more into it.

  5. #45
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    They will die, not because they fight my generals, but because they walked into a disaster zone. They don't actually intercept (if I understood that word correctly.) my army before they are way underway. The scattered lines are either through my camp or far away. If they try to retreat they have to turn around on a very bad area, which is a very muddy river. That's not even taking into consideration how the huge ballista's arrows will hinder cavalry from moving as good as they want.

    Way to completely ignore my post on the previous page:
    " I've drawn multiple dotted arrows for red team so you would underatand the general direction in which they are to head. I didn't draw just one to avoid this situation exactly, where you claim that it's too shallow/too deep and they don't retreat or something. The clause is in the direction of arrows(left), not following the path of a single arrow."
    That one word "intercept" doesn't define the whole clause, the point of the clause, which is very understandable, is that they are to avoid getting slaughtered. They can just pull into the forest if they want to, and they would be fine.
    Are you actually serious with your claims that Ouhon and co. would keep walking as they get slaughtered?

    And let's talk physics here. If you put your ballistas on a wall/cliff, they can not fire beneath themselves. They fire in a straight line, and any enemy that gets close enough to the wall/cliff can no longer be targeted.
    I will not allow your ballistas to fuck up my strat when we have zero(0) feats in the manga. They have had only 1 role, and that is to latch onto a wall, like others have pointed out. You can not have a few fucking hunder ballista and a makeshift wall made by no skilled constructor(GHM) tear down my 30/105/85 thousand strong armies when that has NEVER happened. The ballista have not killed a SINGLE soldier in kingdom. Why has GHM not used them against Tou and the others, when they are so bloody brilliant? This is getting beyond annoying.

    I read through you and made you completely miss your mark. Your Field 2 and Field 3 and their 70k soldiers have MISSED. And they will not know what to do until Keisha and Junsou have shown themselves, and at that point Mangoku is getting trampled by 130k soldiers.

    It is beyond me how anyone can support a tactic that has missplaced half of it's soldiers.
    Last edited by Zentos; 03-21-2017 at 11:33 AM.

  6. #46
    firstly on the ballista's usage. tbh if you really want to complaint about how those ballista has no feat or they weren't meant to attack humans/army, then you should complaint it in game thread when Nord decide to buy his 1.000 ballista and before the match began. It is kinda obvious that they will be pretty crazy since the start since that's Wei's army advantage in the first place. it's a game of opinion, and probably me and Void is influenced to some extent with Age of Empire. you can do some pretty crazy stuffs with some overpowered siege weapons in that game. Anyway, i'll leave it to the host on what to say about ballista usage (siege map only, etc).


    anyway, it's actually to be expected that fighting Nord is fighting to do something about his base and ballistas, especially with Nord going defensive. his generals aren't exactly that noteworthy anyway. Oh well, this is a test game, which become a bit bigger than expected (5 player instead of 3), so the balance is kinda off in the first place

    now for the response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    The orange army will not take 7 days to get to Mangoku, that's just silly.
    never say that, so probably you read things wrongly

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    I would appreciate that, because what you and Void have done at the moment is butchered my clauses(which are usually seen as Word of God), while ignoring Nord's(like Mangoku not attacking until enemies are really close), and what's even worse, you are butchering them with featless weapons that were NEVER used like that in the Kingdom universe.
    now this is what i don't really understand. What clause that we're ignoring? for red army to retreat? Keisha's to counter the siege weapon?

    you're talking about no feat for those, and yet you're taking the easy way with "Keisha tell the whole army to counter siege weapon accordingly" when Keisha has no feat of countering such things. with how powerful and big the ballistas are, then it's to be expected that they can kill multiple enemy with a single shot.

    We never really talk about Mangoku fielding to butcher your army in the first place other than your "retreat" arrows are going straight into Mangoku's camp. well, 2 from 3 of them did anyway. the one which didn't isn't really a factor since it's way before your army start getting attacked.

    and about the position of your overall "retreat to the left", that's why your red army got wrecked in the first place. If we see Nord's pic The ballistas are position on the left and right, so your army is advancing from the right side of the ballista zone and keep retreating to the left side which is another ballista zone. The "do you think Kyouen and Mouten/Ouhon will keep walking such suicide" is exactly because you're drawing that arrows in the first place and the clause is "word of God/Absolute". Had you say "retreat to safety" in the clause instead of "retreat along the dotted red arrows", then you'll take less damage.
    the opening pretty much says that "if you had a clause that said Ousen must duel Moubu, he will duel Moubu regardless of his personality." your retreat arrow's pretty much a bad match up vs Nord's deployment.

    I wouldn't say that Kyouen and co will be completely destroyed, but they do take quite heavy loses from going with such a suicide path

    You've also drawn Kyuugen wrong, because his are is marked by Nord to be before the forrest,so no, he won't be firing anything at my dark blue army, because he's sitting outside the forest.
    now for this one, i don't know why you're thinking Kyuugen will sit there and do nothing when you keep complaining that Kyouen and co won't let their unit get slaughtered. unlike Kyouen which is restricted by your own clause, Kyuugen has no clause that restrict him to that position. going away slightly from his position is quite understandable when enemy is attacking from that way anyway.

    They will either get into the forest safe and sound, or they will make it to Keisha after minimal loses suffred from Chosou(because he can only fire at the small patch before the forest).
    not really sure why you think -at least- Chousou's 30k archers can't do significant damage from very safe position to your 25k troops even if we don't count the ballistas.
    anyway, your troops will retreat either way to Keisha position. in which they won't be a factor until we finish the left field since from Keisha's position alone, he can't really move to capture the HQ.

    Also, Mougu can't help Mangoku when orange defends, you will NOT persuade me tha ballistas that aren't on a hill(no such thing between Mangoku and Mougu) can fire over an army of 35k soldiers to hit me, and not his allies.

    You also ignored the fact that once red and orange join and hit Nord's 35k with 130k that they will get trampled, and if Mougu and Chouso help Mangoku, Keisha will climb the mountain with NO ONE to defend, while Bajio will either join him or fight Kyuugen with 25k generic+5k special vs 30k generic.
    The fact that it's 35k vs 130k pretty much means that there will be places where the ballista (especially from Mougou's HQ) can hit enemy from that position without hitting Mangoku's and Ranbihaku. There will be some range between where Orange army will move in the first place to reach Mangoku and Ranbihaku position where the ballista will grind the troops away, so it won't be completely 35k vs 130k. The fact that Ranbihaku can kill anyone in your army also make sure that he'll do devastating damage even if he'll eventually going down. anyway, i'll follow up in the next part

    Nord has no answer for the overwhelming force that will hit him from the left. If he doesn't help them, they get trampled and die, exposing his base; if he does help them, Keisha climbs the mountain with no resistance.
    this is pretty much the only chance of victory that you have imo. but this is what will happen. Kyuugen and Chousou will go down to Mougou's HQ, to defend vs Keisha. Kyuugen is not locked with any clause, while Chousou is told to "Always keep close attention to where enemy troops are and react accordingly." He'll notice your attack from centre and left and will go down to help Mougou.

    Mougou will send reinforcement to Mangoku's position as per his clause. Together with Ranbihaku and Mangoku, Mougou the number shouldn't be that bad, with overall advantage of position and ballista keep shooting the rear where there's no allies, then they should be able to defend (with quite heavy loses) before Keisha managed to climb up

    And one more thing; Gn lost a final because all of you claimed that Moubu can survive being turned into a pin cushion. So don't go killing of Ohhon/Mouten/Kyouen with a few archers and FEATLESS! ballistas, when they infinitely smarter and have a clause to not die like bloodthirsty idiots.
    i never am a fan of brute strength things like Moubu unstoppable charge, that's pretty much why i never utilize Kanmei like that even though GP and some other pretty much thinks that Kanmei is Moubu's Chu equivalent.

    just want to say that your strategy isn't really wise either. Sending Keisha to capture a cliff which isn't really his expertise (borrowing your words, featless?), sending Kyouen to do guerilla warfare in plains, sending Heki and Bajio to sneak attack from a very open position (plain area). Nord's strat is kinda better in that sense. he locked your options of going from right and surrounding him.
    Last edited by gn_x00; 03-21-2017 at 12:52 PM.

  7. #47
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @gn_x00;
    1) And why exactly would I warn him that the ballista are featless and useless in my opinion? It's his fault, not mine. This is not Age of empires, this is Kingdom. GHM, the man who devised and created them, did not use them in other fights like for example against Tou. He used them for a single purpose, and that is latching onto a wall. You miraculously attributing them to decimate thousands of soldiers does not exist in this universe.

    2) Keisha doesn't tell them exactly what to do, he was to tell them to be wary and act accordingly. For example, even if for the sake of just THIS argument in THIS sentence, we assume that the ballista are really deadly, an according action would be not to walk under a fucking ballista rain. I hope that this clears it up.

    3) Your point about the red army retreating along the red arrows, the clause itself:
    "2) In case that they are intercepted by an army that they cannot fight, run in the way of the dotted arrows, otherwise proceed with guerilla warfare. ".
    Nowhere did I tell them to run along the red arrows, but rather in that way, or in other words LEFT:
    "I've drawn multiple dotted arrows for the red team so you would understand the general direction in which they are to head. I didn't draw just one to avoid this situation exactly, where you claim that it's too shallow/too deep and they don't retreat or something. The clause is in the direction of the arrows(left), not following the path of a single arrow."
    So no, they will not run through a fucking ballista rain, they will retreat to the left. They will see the fortified Field 1 and either retreat into the forest or behind the forest.
    Some will die, sure, but no more than a few thousand at worst. We are talking about cavalry led by extremely smart generals.

    Extra note:
    This is exactly why clauses are a really, really, bad way of doing this, because we are arguing semantics. What was I supposed to do, draw a thousand dotted arrows towards left, every 1 mm? Or cover half the map in one huge dotted red arrow? Come on, stop being ridiculous.
    Being limited like this is also bad, just because people are too lazy to read. If I had 2 more sentences all this mess would be crystal clear. But no, people are lazy, so let's make this a pain in the ass.

    4) And a question for the ballista and archers, just how ridiculously huge range are you giving them all? Like we are dealing with kilometers here and you claim that they can just fire at my troops from everywhere? Didn't know Nord had an army of Hulk archers.

    5) Kyuugen will obviously be in the area he fortified. What kind of retard makes fortifications and moves out of them into a forest? Are you being serious here?
    Even if, for the sake of the argument, he were in the forest and he and Chousou shot at my light blue team(Bajio), we are talking about 30k mounted men. Just how many can they take out in their initial barrage before they dash away? 1k? 3k? You aren't telling me that archers and ballista are about to kill 30k mounted men who aren't even trapped, they can just run back.

    6) Of course Keisha can move. Mangoku will be hard pressed by at least 125k troops from the left. Mougu and Chousou(who will be arriving a lot later than Mougu) have to assist Mangoku. You insist that my Bajio army will be chased away from the right. Alright, but that means that they are joining Keisha with at least 25k. MAYBE, AT BEST, Nord took out 5k cavalry(which is laughable, but whatever). That means that Keisha's army now has 105k troops, 5k Rigan and 5k mountain people. And you tell me they can't scale a mountain? Bajio is told to assist Keisha, which means Kesiha will use him as he sees fit. He can have his now 105k+5k Rigan assault the HQ and lose 10-20k or whatever, while Bajio scales the mountain and causes a ruckus, allowing the rest of Keisha's army to get up.
    Because you insist so much on Bajio being is repelled from the right, Mangoku and by extension Mougu's HQ are now facing 100k+5k Gaku Ka+5k Gyoku Hou+whoever survived from the 20k(at the VERY least 10k, and I'm being VERY generous here) on the far left, as well as 80k+5k Rigan+5k mountain+whoever survived from the 25k(surely more than 20k) from the center.

    7) Mougu cannot fire at the orange army because it is attacking Mangoku's base almost perpendicular from Mougu's HQ. He literally has to fire over Mangoku's army if he wants to fire at orange. Mougu's HQ is not elevated on high ground and he cannot fire over 35k men. The distance is far too big.

    8) My army has a clause to avoid duels or tag team. The only fighter generals in Nord's army are Mangoku and Ranbihaku, while I have Ouhon, Mouten, Kyouen and Kaishibou on the left and Kisui, Bajio and Heki in the center. Once again, Ouhon(93) can kill Mangoku(88) without shedding a drop of blood. He can even have Kyouen assist him in killing Mangoku before they join Mouten and Kaishibou who have killed/stalled Ranbihaku. In other words, my clause against enemy generals made Ranbihaku, who is as a really good duelist, completely useless.

    9) Even if the whole of Nord's 3 areas is to join, Mangoku(35k), Mougu(50k) and Chousou(40k), that is 125k against my 125k(or whatever losses you want to subtract there). If he wants equal numbers he is leaving his center unguarded, which is getting assaulted by more than 120k troops. Just look at paragraph 6, where it is explained in more detail.

    10) We don't assume generals are retards for everything except for what they have shown on panel, unless stated otherwise(like how we know that Moubu is a retard for strategy). It's the opposite, those who have shown exceptional feats in a certain area(like Ordo in mountains) get a boost there, while every other terrain is judged in accordance to their overall talent as a general.
    He may not be the best mountain assaulter, but he has Bajio and 5k mountain men to assist him.

    You know what guerilla warfare is. They are to chip away at the enemy(unless they find it too hard and run), and use their own tactical brilliance(as shown by Ouhon and Mouten while defending Tou) and Kyouen's arrows to make that brilliance shine even brighter. Plain or not does not matter here.

    Bajio and Heki have been sent there with a relatively small MOUNTED army for 2 reasons. The first is to try and ambush someone in the forest, the second is to try and bait others to Keisha if the enemy arrives first. Seeing how Nord's armies get there first, Bajio and Heki will take small casualties before returning to Keisha's side. They are not wasted, like Nord's right side is. Every preparation for the right side that he made, together with 70k soldiers, is wasted on killing like 2k of mine.

    I can't believe that you actually evaluate Nord's right side strategy as good, when he sent 70k soldiers to deal with 30k soldiers that will turn tail as soon as they get attacked. I realised how dangerous that right side is and didn't send a big army there precisely because of that, and you pat Nord on the back for how good a job he did securing it? From who? Bigfoot?
    Last edited by Zentos; 03-21-2017 at 01:59 PM.

  8. #48
    Crispickle's Avatar
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    @Void; i need to know when this end, to max-procrastinate my vote


  9. #49
    The Dragon of Katsurahama Nordlending's Avatar
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    Can't write much on my phone now.

    But Keisha army is a joke.

    You can stack the numbers as much as you want but 45 thousand of his troops are cavalry units. You can claim it as much as you want that they can walk up a cliff, but fact is. They can't.


    The real world is cold! The real world doesn't care about spirit! You want to be a hero? Then play the part and die like every other Huntsman in history! As for me, I'll do what I do best: lie, steal, cheat and survive!

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    10) We don't assume generals are retards for everything except for what they have shown on panel, unless stated otherwise(like how we know that Moubu is a retard for strategy). It's the opposite, those who have shown exceptional feats in a certain area(like Ordo in mountains) get a boost there, while every other terrain is judged in accordance to their overall talent as a general.
    He may not be the best mountain assaulter, but he has Bajio and 5k mountain men to assist him.
    Moubu was actually stated by Ouki to have a great understanding for warfare and has a respectable intelligence stat. He prefers a direct approach with strength over strategy, but he's not an idiot like Ranbihaku or Shin, he came up with the plan to bring his peasants up to speed with the rest of the army and knows how to pull off complicated tactical manuevers.
    Last edited by Great Potato; 03-21-2017 at 04:19 PM.

  11. #51
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    Can't write much on my phone now.

    But Keisha army is a joke.

    You can stack the numbers as much as you want but 45 thousand of his troops are cavalry units. You can claim it as much as you want that they can walk up a cliff, but fact is. They can't.
    Do you mean just Keisha, or both blue armies combined? Because Keisha has 40k infantry, 20k cavalry and 20k archers. Of course they can climb it, they will just be slower than Zhao cavalry. Ousen and Karin's elite, none of which are Zhao, storm down cliffs at the back of KP.
    You want to use ballista for something that they were never shown to be able to do, but at the same time deny me from doing things that plenty of generals/armies pulled off in the manga. Hell no.
    Not that it matters, there's 40k infantry and 5k mountain men that get to climb before the cavalry and that is well more than enough, considering that your left side is getting absolutely trampled under overwhelming numbers. We are talking 4x your numbers, you aren't gonna stop that.

    You haven't answered the fact that you misunderstood the red army clause and that they are getting out alive with most of the army, or the fact that your left is getting devastated.
    And of course the most important one, which no one answered so far, and that is why are ballista suddenly so good, when you are using them for something that we have never seen happen.

    I still can't believe I'm actually wasting this much time defending my strat against an army that has half of it's soldiers misplaced, just because you are trying to attribute godlike powers to ballista and use my clause against me. But nu-uh, not under my watch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Moubu was actually stated by Ouki to have a great understanding for warfare and has a respectable intelligence stat. He prefers a direct approach with strength over strategy, but he's not an idiot like Ranbihaku or Shin, he came up with the plan to bring his peasants up to speed with the rest of the army and knows how to pull off complicated tactical manuevers.
    My point was that he dislikes tactic and won't really use it as much as others. You took the most unimportant part of the whole post, and only answered that.
    Last edited by Zentos; 03-21-2017 at 04:58 PM.

  12. #52
    Crispickle's Avatar
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    Read most of the thread and I'm getting a gist of it. Void's corner was as nice as always, but I think he goes too far on the left battlefield where he decides the fates of Kyouen/Ouhon when their situation is critical but not exactly decided. I agree they're getting wiped out or down of that line, but it should be to the reader's discretion imo. Assuming Keisha automatically waits for the left to get favorable is also too much, since Keisha is given pretty much clear sheet there, and he could do anything he feels like doing, potentially. May it be for the best or the worst. For example, he might jump and attack while Mougou's ballistas are pointed to the dust cloud, to say one.




    So well, all considered, Nord's strat is very creative (even moreso than his usual) but for how the battle unfolds, it has a problem: little less than half of his army is stuck defending a place that, after Heki's failure in sneaking from behind, won't be attacked anymore. Not an irrelevant part of the army either, minds like Chousou and Kyuugen would have come handy for the HQ defense, but the only clause that would make Chousou retreat is only triggered by a defeat on his own front, so he stays there.

    When the Junsou branch will get to Mangoku's field, Keisha and Kisui will have clear way for a showdown with Mougou that the old man can't win. Even in the positive scenario where he can hold ground, Junsou has thrice the men Mangoku has, all fresh while the zombies are at least winded. One way or another, the HQ is gonna fall quite certainly.

    [Zentos] brings this one home

    - - - Updated - - -

    This kind of siege game itself seems like, not a bad alternative. I still like an even numbers battle more though. It's really hard to keep this variant balanced.


  13. #53
    The Dragon of Katsurahama Nordlending's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Read most of the thread and I'm getting a gist of it. Void's corner was as nice as always, but I think he goes too far on the left battlefield where he decides the fates of Kyouen/Ouhon when their situation is critical but not exactly decided. I agree they're getting wiped out or down of that line, but it should be to the reader's discretion imo. Assuming Keisha automatically waits for the left to get favorable is also too much, since Keisha is given pretty much clear sheet there, and he could do anything he feels like doing, potentially. May it be for the best or the worst. For example, he might jump and attack while Mougou's ballistas are pointed to the dust cloud, to say one.




    So well, all considered, Nord's strat is very creative (even moreso than his usual) but for how the battle unfolds, it has a problem: little less than half of his army is stuck defending a place that, after Heki's failure in sneaking from behind, won't be attacked anymore. Not an irrelevant part of the army either, minds like Chousou and Kyuugen would have come handy for the HQ defense, but the only clause that would make Chousou retreat is only triggered by a defeat on his own front, so he stays there.

    When the Junsou branch will get to Mangoku's field, Keisha and Kisui will have clear way for a showdown with Mougou that the old man can't win. Even in the positive scenario where he can hold ground, Junsou has thrice the men Mangoku has, all fresh while the zombies are at least winded. One way or another, the HQ is gonna fall quite certainly.

    [Zentos] brings this one home

    - - - Updated - - -

    This kind of siege game itself seems like, not a bad alternative. I still like an even numbers battle more though. It's really hard to keep this variant balanced.
    Why do you think Chousou will stay there?

    First there is the fact that Chousou have a clausul to react to enemy movement. So he won't stay up there.

    Second. Void uploaded the wrong one strat, so Mougou got his second clausal wrong.

    This is the real one.

    Mougou will order the other generals to return to HQ if the enemy doesn't appear, and isn't going to do so in the near future.


    The real world is cold! The real world doesn't care about spirit! You want to be a hero? Then play the part and die like every other Huntsman in history! As for me, I'll do what I do best: lie, steal, cheat and survive!

  14. #54
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    It seems that drawing multiple dotted arrows for red has gotten everyone confused, I'll take my lesson from there. Either I will draw a thousand of them, or just have the clause go like "go back to safety". Now, you can either pretend that you can't understand it the way I had imagined it(bear in mind, this is my first time playing) and insist that my red army will for some reason die without killing a single soldier, or you can admit that at least half(Gaku Ka, Gyou Hou and another 5k) will get away. And again, I'm being very generous here with this.

    As for Keisha and the mountain, I would've had his army at 50k infantry and 30k archers, but because the chariots and team Heki had the potential to draw someone into a trap, I kept 20k cavalry to be able to fight them properly. That being said, the 40k infantry and 20k archers can climb just fine, while the 20k cavalry will be slower, but no problem there since I also have 5k mountain men and some more of the cavalry that returned with Heki.

    Sure feels better to discuss when at least one person can see where I'm coming from and I don't have to be completely on the defense here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    Why do you think Chousou will stay there?

    First there is the fact that Chousou have a clausul to react to enemy movement. So he won't stay up there.
    The orange army is going all the way around the forest so that they can not be seen. Chousou will not see them until they are in striking range, and at that point he can't make it in time to save Mangoku from the onslaught he's facing.

    This is the real one.

    Mougou will order the other generals to return to HQ if the enemy doesn't appear, and isn't going to do so in the near future.
    He will not pull them back as soon as they repel Heki, because he can't know if they'll be coming back. And that is more than enough time for my orange army to get into position.

    @Void;
    Just saw that I moved him back and forth

    You totally ignored Chousou's unit firing at you from above. You think Heki and Bajio can just take shelter in those trees forever?

    You underestimate ballistas and Nord's number of them. What are the biggest strengths of a ballistas? The fact that they fire huge bolts with massive power. This isn't an arrow that stops after it has struck a person, it's fired with enough power to strike through multiple people with many times the range of an arrow. How do you think GHM's bolts latched onto solid stone walls? Because they were fired with extreme power, enough to bore through rock. And you're having your forces enter into a crossfire zone with bolts coming from the front and right. I don't have to give you anything, you're the one that has to prove to me and the rest of us why they would survive.

    Anyways, I'd appreciate it if you made your case in the thread and not on my VMs. It'd seem like you're making deals.
    I didn't ignore the firing, but team Heki is mounted. The moment they get fired upon, they pull back. No matter how large the firing squad is, team Heki is not trapped and they can just run back. They are mounted. The arrows/bolts are not killing any more than 5k before they pull out.

    I'm not underestimating anything, why did GHM not use his ballista against Tou? Just explain that to me, and I'll accept that they are weapons of mass destruction.
    Last edited by Zentos; 03-21-2017 at 07:01 PM.

  15. #55
    well shit, thread blew up

    Only thing I'm going to address is that ballista are siege weapons, historically used in sieging and defense. GHM's are the sieging type, since I already stated that they can't freely maneuver on the y axis for defense. Hence, I don't think anyone in Kingdom is going to use them in castle defense since they can't shoot down when enemies are climbing the walls with ladders and such. You'd have to wait until the European middle ages for that. And in regards to using them in a field battle, no Kingdom strategist is stupid enough to carry so many ballistas onto the field when they're slow to deploy and making so many of them in the first place to deploy would take more time and resources than drafting an army. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just cuz nobody has been shot with and killed by a ballista in series does not mean they won't kill anybody here. You've seen their power and range and now Nord has the numbers, you prove to me how your army is going to survive other than "b-but ballistas haven't shot shit in the series, they can't kill what's smarter than them!" Pls, your smart dudes just walked into a crossfire and their multiple retreat routes lead directly into Mangoku's field. Being smart won't save you when you've walked into a killzone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Read most of the thread and I'm getting a gist of it. Void's corner was as nice as always, but I think he goes too far on the left battlefield where he decides the fates of Kyouen/Ouhon when their situation is critical but not exactly decided. I agree they're getting wiped out or down of that line, but it should be to the reader's discretion imo. Assuming Keisha automatically waits for the left to get favorable is also too much, since Keisha is given pretty much clear sheet there, and he could do anything he feels like doing, potentially. May it be for the best or the worst. For example, he might jump and attack while Mougou's ballistas are pointed to the dust cloud, to say one.




    So well, all considered, Nord's strat is very creative (even moreso than his usual) but for how the battle unfolds, it has a problem: little less than half of his army is stuck defending a place that, after Heki's failure in sneaking from behind, won't be attacked anymore. Not an irrelevant part of the army either, minds like Chousou and Kyuugen would have come handy for the HQ defense, but the only clause that would make Chousou retreat is only triggered by a defeat on his own front, so he stays there.

    When the Junsou branch will get to Mangoku's field, Keisha and Kisui will have clear way for a showdown with Mougou that the old man can't win. Even in the positive scenario where he can hold ground, Junsou has thrice the men Mangoku has, all fresh while the zombies are at least winded. One way or another, the HQ is gonna fall quite certainly.

    [Zentos] brings this one home

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    This kind of siege game itself seems like, not a bad alternative. I still like an even numbers battle more though. It's really hard to keep this variant balanced.
    I see you're on point today

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  16. #56
    Crispickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    Why do you think Chousou will stay there?

    First there is the fact that Chousou have a clausul to react to enemy movement. So he won't stay up there.

    Second. Void uploaded the wrong one strat, so Mougou got his second clausal wrong.

    This is the real one.

    Mougou will order the other generals to return to HQ if the enemy doesn't appear, and isn't going to do so in the near future.
    Well, this was important to mention tbh. Chousou doesn't trigger because he doesn't lose, nord.

    Even willing to not be too rigid on semantics, Chousou and Kyuugen actually saw an enemy attacking, so they won't get back in the HQ right away. They must be on their guard for at least the time for Junsou to bring his whole army against Mangoku. And they sure won't bring equipment with them. So, I'll have to go and I still see you losing but I'll rethink this over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    I see you're on point today
    what le fug do you imply


  17. #57
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Void;

    If one of you ignores this part again, I'm gonna kill a bitch.
    3) Your point about the red army retreating along the red arrows, the clause itself:
    "2) In case that they are intercepted by an army that they cannot fight, run in the way of the dotted arrows, otherwise proceed with guerilla warfare. ".
    Nowhere did I tell them to run along the red arrows, but rather in that way, or in other words LEFT:
    "I've drawn multiple dotted arrows for the red team so you would understand the general direction in which they are to head. I didn't draw just one to avoid this situation exactly, where you claim that it's too shallow/too deep and they don't retreat or something. The clause is in the direction of the arrows(left), not following the path of a single arrow."
    So no, they will not run through a fucking ballista rain, they will retreat to the left. They will see the fortified Field 1 and either retreat into the forest or behind the forest.
    Some will die, sure, but no more than a few thousand at worst. We are talking about cavalry led by extremely smart generals.
    That, and they are slow to reload. Once they fire their first shot they'll take ages to reload, and that is enough time for a cavalry to pull back(on both fronts).

  18. #58
    The Dragon of Katsurahama Nordlending's Avatar
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    You are underestimating the view on the highest place on the map. Chousou can easily see where the orange army is going the first time they scale that cliff. Even after they move into the forest they will have a basic idea of where they are. He doesn't even need to react to orange army. He will react to Keisha, and the fact that Heki army won't be enough to take that other army easily, or at all. Chousou is a smart man. He will see that Keisha is the bigger threat, and include the intelligence with Orange he knows he have to get down to the Hq.


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  19. #59
    I will analyze it tonight. Just looking at the team composition it looks pretty even. Ballistas will be very helpful but Zentos has a lot of firepower and guys who specialize in siege battles.

    Once I look at the strats I will have a better idea.

  20. #60
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    You are underestimating the view on the highest place on the map. Chousou can easily see where the orange army is going the first time they scale that cliff. Even after they move into the forest they will have a basic idea of where they are. He doesn't even need to react to orange army. He will react to Keisha, and the fact that Heki army won't be enough to take that other army easily, or at all. Chousou is a smart man. He will see that Keisha is the bigger threat, and include the intelligence with Orange he knows he have to get down to the Hq.
    First off, let's start with Chousou. He is not a smart man. Had it not been for Riboku's double feint or Moubu's hot head, the 120k elite Zhao army vs the 100k Qin peasants would have ended in a decimation of the Zhao. Mind you, and read that again, 120k elites vs 100k peasants.

    Moving on to his supposed sight that seems to rival modern tech binoculars. First off, he has the Heki army approaching as well as the chariots kicking up a dust storm. He has plenty to worry about in front of himself. Not only that, his sight is impaired by that hill(the one that has the arrow shaped wall on it) and he can not see the plains, nor the cliff, beneath it. The hill is quite clearly higher than both previously mentioned areas. So no, he will not see the orange army until they are in range to attack Mangoku.

    He also can not leave his post immediately after repelling Heki, because Heki might come back and also the chariots are kicking up a dust storm and possibly hiding an army. He doesn't know where Keisha is.
    Even if he comes down, you are still outnumbered or equally numbered in the left when you combine Mangoku, Mougu and Chousou. Which means Keisha's army that is well over 100k strong does not have anyone to oppose them.

    You can't defend against 130k from the left and 120k from the center with 125k..that just ain't happening. Not when the left isn't even a cliff battle, but a plains battle where we are either equal(if no one defends against Keisha and the mountain men) or I outnumber you severely.
    Last edited by Zentos; 03-21-2017 at 07:28 PM.

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