Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 53 of 53
  1. #41
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,244
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenma View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It ended in failure because of Ousen's borderline ridiculous prediction powers. It was an excellent plan which only Ousen could have countered and came seconds from succeeding, and Ousen only got the opportunity because Ordo was unable to challenge him.

    Granted, Karin was the only general there besides Riboku who came off as a serious threat, the rest were jobbers.
    And to repeat myself again, if she just told the other commanders about her plan in the morning meeting, KP would have fallen. Ordo did not fail because he didn't move out. He couldn't possibly move out after what happened earlier. His only fail is the fact that he thought that Ousen would actually run away. That's where he fucked up and lost 8k men, not moving out after that was the only logical play he had. There is a single reason why KP didn't fall, and that is Karin's pride and refusal of communication.

  2. #42
    say-and-sing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    here tokay
    Posts
    3,011
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You are right. But, isn't that what a gamble is? You either win and get sung about, or you lose and you besmirch your name. Since when do we define reality by what-ifs and not by events that have actually happened?
    Reality or rather, the quality of a general encompasses the actions as well, not only the result.
    Of course one can just look at the results, check them off and praise or condemn based on this - like many kings would do, and the public.
    Or one looks behind the victory/defeat of his general and asks whether it was bad luck, incompetence or even worse, betrayal. And accordingly keeps him up, demotes him or worse.

    Hara has given us beautiful insight in the whole process Karin went through bids all over the arc... there were problems (see below), but we can see why Karin acted the way she did and why it was the best course going by what she knew. She has flaws, but she is a great general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Looking back at it, the whole Coalition army arc is unfair in a way.
    That is true, but at least it was epic. Not like FD or Keisha/Kanki where one-sided spanking was all over the place. Let's hope Riboku vs. Ousen gets balanced well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And to repeat myself again, if she just told the other commanders about her plan in the morning meeting, KP would have fallen. Ordo did not fail because he didn't move out. He couldn't possibly move out after what happened earlier. His only fail is the fact that he thought that Ousen would actually run away. That's where he fucked up and lost 8k men, not moving out after that was the only logical play he had. There is a single reason why KP didn't fall, and that is Karin's pride and refusal of communication.
    Comunication WAS a huge problem, but it was a problem between Chu. This is the (stupid) pride of Chu that Hara has portrayed everywhere. Instead of working together Karin and Kanmei bickered around, made their own plans and made life a hell of a lot easier for Tou and Moubu, who just kept each others back clear. Or remember when Kanki/Ousen wept for Mougou, despite him being level beneath them and compare Karin's reaction to Rinbukun and Kanmei's death. She never cared for them or their men, they were only tools for her she (at leats Kanmei) had to keep alive so not the battlefield got lost.

    Plus SSK apparently never bothered to keep Karin and Kanmei in line. Actually, GHM had to keep Karin back when she was going after Ordo. So despite sending the biggest army of 150.000, Chu never managed to utilize them.

    But you can't blame Karin for not telling the other commanders. Depsite it coming out of the blue, it was a very risky plan, the more people know about, the more likely they fuck up. And even if everyone kept their mouth shut, there was the risk of Ousen reading the plan by Ordo's reactions.


  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And to repeat myself again, if she just told the other commanders about her plan in the morning meeting, KP would have fallen. Ordo did not fail because he didn't move out. He couldn't possibly move out after what happened earlier. His only fail is the fact that he thought that Ousen would actually run away. That's where he fucked up and lost 8k men, not moving out after that was the only logical play he had. There is a single reason why KP didn't fall, and that is Karin's pride and refusal of communication.
    If Karin told them The plan would have been leaked or found out for sure.

  4. #44
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,244
    @say-and-sing;

    I wouldn't agree that she is a great general. She has great talent for strategy, that is true. But she lacks every other quality that makes a great general; communication, teamwork and raising morale, to name a few. She is wicked through and through, to the point where I'd gauge her to be worse than Kanki. At the very least, all the shit Kanki does is done to his enemies, not his allies. The only exception being him striking 2 of Zenou's soldiers, but that felt out of character for me and poorly written. How could they not know their bandit leader/general?

    @felixng2015;

    As for the information leaking, that is simply not true. She could've told only the 6 generals or in fact, only tell Ordo that he should move his army towards KP the moment he sees a smoke signal from there. He could tell them to move without prior warning, like what Ousen did in the current arc. Exactly one person except her could've know about it, and everything would be fine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Or remember when Kanki/Ousen wept for Mougou, despite him being level beneath them and compare Karin's reaction to Rinbukun and Kanmei's death. She never cared for them or their men, they were only tools for her she (at leats Kanmei) had to keep alive so not the battlefield got lost.
    Refresh my memory please, when did this happen?

  5. #45
    say-and-sing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    here tokay
    Posts
    3,011
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I wouldn't agree that she is a great general. She has great talent for strategy, that is true. But she lacks every other quality that makes a great general; communication, teamwork and raising morale, to name a few. She is wicked through and through, to the point where I'd gauge her to be worse than Kanki.
    I think she can raise morale, but in some kind of Chu way. There has to be a reason 300.000 men are following her. But yeah, her having a heart-felt speech to reach some peasants... it could be possible, regarding her backstory goes somewhere, but so far it's hazy.

    Regarding communication and teamword. Her own troops reacted very well, moving in formations. It is with other generals where the problems lie. Again, Chu. I really hope Karin and Kouen can turn their state around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The only exception being him striking 2 of Zenou's soldiers, but that felt out of character for me and poorly written. How could they not know their bandit leader/general?
    Tbf, back in those days most people had no clue what someone looked like. So some random soldier not knowing what Kanki looks like is reasonable, especially since Kanki does not seem to visit Zenou's clan often and those slain could be new guys. But yeah, it feels out of place, especially stating that even Kanki prefers to stay away. Going in all swinging doesn't seem to be the best way to avoid getting Zenou's mace in your face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    As for the information leaking, that is simply not true. She could've told only the 6 generals or in fact, only tell Ordo that he should move his army towards KP the moment he sees a smoke signal from there. He could tell them to move without prior warning, like what Ousen did in the current arc. Exactly one person except her could've know about it, and everything would be fine.
    It is still pretty risky to trust your plan to someone you have no idea about. Ordo could be an utter silent professional or a drunkard telling his guys how the big chick is trying to pull one over. Plus there is the fact that she is not cic of Chu. And once again her upbringing, Ordo completeley pulling out and Ousen seeing through (although the latter she could hardly expect).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Refresh my memory please, when did this happen?
    I guess I should have "" it. Well, they wept in their own way, Ousen taking a city offering himself as boss and Kanki lighting up some dudes in remembrance.


  6. #46
    Cheif of Wisdom Amol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    247
    Lets not play blame game here.
    I fault neither Tou nor Karin for their performance in CA arc.
    Tou had to defend against ridiculously large army with quite small of his own. We have been spoiled by outrageous feats that we have forgotten how difficult it actually is. Some fault him for failing to kill whatever that young Chu 5000 commander guys name was. But he is supposed to be Chu's Shin and a very fucked up Shin injured Houken of all people. So I can't fault Tou there. He did more than what was asked from him.
    Karin also can't be faulted because she did better than Riboku did in there. She didn't communicate with Ordo because why the hell would she ? They didn't trust each other. Just because they coalition didn't mean they would become buddy with each other. For all she knew Ordo would have got captured by enemies and spilled the beans or worse defected to Qin.
    She came closest to taking over KP. Seeing just end result is pretty narrow minded way of looking at things. Context matters.
    So Tou was great and so was Karin.
    Really Ordo was the only one who truly fucked up in CA arc.
    And maybe Kanmei . They accomplished jack shit in war.

  7. #47
    say-and-sing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    here tokay
    Posts
    3,011
    Took me a while to find Tou vs. Karin's numbers.
    Chu vs. Qin started off 150.000 to 90.000 (ch. 278).

    Final Moubu vs. Kanmei was 40.000 vs. 60.000 (ch. 309).
    Final Tou vs. Karin: 30.000 vs. 60.000 (ch. 293).
    So 120.000 vs. 70.000. Working together would have been better for Chu.

    And The Duke survived with 120.000 - 40.000 and then slightly over 110.000 to 30.000 from second day, iirc.
    Poor coalition.
    Last edited by say-and-sing; 03-18-2017 at 08:36 PM.


  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    I wouldn't agree that she is a great general.
    Hara has gone out of his way to enforce the fact that she is great though.

  9. #49
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,244
    Well this conversation went in a completely different direction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Hara has gone out of his way to enforce the fact that she is great though.
    He better make her live up to that hype. So far the only enjoyable moment with her, for me at least, was when she got offered the prime minister position.

  10. #50
    Dai Don Dedede's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    France
    Posts
    5,765
    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Took me a while to find Tou vs. Karin's numbers.
    Chu vs. Qin started off 150.000 to 90.000 (ch. 278).

    Final Moubu vs. Kanmei was 40.000 vs. 60.000 (ch. 309).
    Final Tou vs. Karin: 30.000 vs. 60.000 (ch. 293).
    So 120.000 vs. 70.000. Working together would have been better for Chu.

    And The Duke survived with 120.000 - 40.000 and then slightly over 110.000 to 30.000 from second day, iirc.
    Poor coalition.
    It's weird, I saw the same thing on Kissmanga but I could swear I read somewhere that Moubu had 45k that day and that with the remnants of Rinbukun army Karin had 75k
    Can't remember what website I read that on

  11. #51
    say-and-sing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    here tokay
    Posts
    3,011
    Quote Originally Posted by Dai Don Dedede View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's weird, I saw the same thing on Kissmanga but I could swear I read somewhere that Moubu had 45k that day and that with the remnants of Rinbukun army Karin had 75k
    Can't remember what website I read that on
    The wiki stated something like 70.000-75.000 for Karin and Kanmei. Which implies that Qin "only" managed to take out 10.000 men on first day when Tou took out Rinbukun.


  12. #52
    Dai Don Dedede's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    France
    Posts
    5,765
    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The wiki stated something like 70.000-75.000 for Karin and Kanmei. Which implies that Qin "only" managed to take out 10.000 men on first day when Tou took out Rinbukun.
    Weren't all armies the same size? 60k each with a grand total of 180k initially. So they'd have taken out 30k.
    I don't think the Chu army surffered that much on the first day, Rinbukun was reached almost instantly by Rokuomi and then by Tou. The fight between Tou and Rinbukun felt rather short so I guess it depends on how long you feel the Rokuomi vs Rinbukun fight lasted
    I'd say 30k with mild losses on the first day and low losses on the other when they were fighting conservatively doesn't seem too surprising

  13. #53
    say-and-sing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    here tokay
    Posts
    3,011
    Quote Originally Posted by Dai Don Dedede View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Weren't all armies the same size? 60k each with a grand total of 180k initially. So they'd have taken out 30k.
    They were the same size, but each 50.000 -> total 150.000, see just ch. 278, where it is stated three times.
    I don't think the fight lasted to long, but losing their general made Chu vulnerable to stabby-stabby.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •