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  1. #21
    not really sure what Zentos is arguing here... it's a fact that Karin is playing around and still managed to win her encounter with Tou.
    Let's just say that both Tou and Karin have no real amazing result, and yet he says Tou is good because Ouki and GHM says so, while Karin is bad even though Riboku, SSK and SHK says she's good

    tbh, no matter how I like Tou, it's still a real fact that Karin beat him easily. She only fails her "elites capture gate" strategy because Ordo got screwed up really badly by Ousen. Totally not her fault at all. Ofc she didn't need to kill Tou and Moubu army herself because it's not the point of the battle. Trying to massacre them all pretty much means that Chu's own troops will took a lot of damage from Tou and Moubu. Not to mention they will needs more than 5k elites because the reserve behind the gate would be perfectly prepared for them to come

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Or, you know, she could've used the 5k elites she had on herself to run over Tou or Moubu. She fucked around and got fucked. If I were the king of Chu I'd have her executed. All these "brilliant" strategic plays she pulled amounted to a failure. She wanted to play dirty and it bit her in the ass. We are talking about 10k of possibly the best elites in the world. Had they been utilised properly, they could've won the battlefield and the war.
    If she spent her time with Tou, the risk of Kanmei falling would become too great. And as we have seen, her brother alone barely made it in time.
    Seeing how everything played out, it's safe to assume had she used her troops to violently bash her way through the Qin troops towards the duel, it would have worked. But the moment this had played out, her troops were already on the way to the pass. Karin gambled the rather safe failsafe bet that hitting the pass from behind would end the game - again, one army COMPLETELY pulling out, that was unpredictable, especially 120.000 mountain tribes vs. 70.000 Qin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    And you didn't even try defending the fact that she cut off 2 commanders and their units and had them surrounded and outnumbered and they still got out alive. Can you name a single play she made that actually amounted to visible results? Because the elites to the gates didn't, the elephants and surprise attack didn't and even her attempt to assassinate Moubu with 1 soldier instead of her 5k elites didn't. Please do enlighten me why Karin is such a good general.
    Because two nobody's (unless you don't mean Ouki's remnants) escaping is completely irrelevant. To me as it is to Karin who had bigger problems.
    And if we go by this standard, what did Renpa and his 4 HK achieve as visible results in Sanyou? And does this mean they are crap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    That just isn't true. Kanmei was regarded as the strongest warrior by the whole world. Only SHK believed Moubu could pull that win. He had a numerical advantage, strategists AND himself as the strongest in the world. There is absolutely no reason what so ever for Karin to keep a lookout on Kanmei. None, and that can not be discussed. What Moubu pulled off is a miracle which no one could or should have predicted. Not with the facts that were known before their duel.
    Unless I am mistaken, SHK deemd him that way. Just like Riboku (who knew Kanmei, Giant of Chu, rampaging Zhao) deemed Renpa to be unbeatable one-on-one so not to worry. Too bad Qin had two hidden beasts who opened the battle. So while the assumptions may or are right, it doesn't mean things can go down the shitter quickly.

    If that was not a lesson, Kanmei lost his most trusted general day one. And Rinbukun got completely butchered by Tou, a man whose strength was even unknown to most of his Qin peers, let alone Chu (who probably never heard his name before). Even after day one Chu still had no clue how powerful Tou really was and worse yet, how powerful the proposed opponent for Kanmei would be. Still Kanmei went for a 1v1 duel. Which always carries the risk of completely leveling the playing field, regardless how much more numbers and so on, if the commander and symbol of an army gets taken down. Kanmei trusted in his strength, Karin doubted it, rightfully so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    I'm really having trouble here with all the downplaying Tou is getting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Kanmei should've taken her head off her shoulders when he intended to. That way he wouldn't accept a duel because he would be the only general, and Chu would've won.
    YOU are downplaying Tou as well if you argue that had Kanmei killed Karin and not accepted a duel (which is not his nature), Chu would have won against Tou and Moubu.
    Last edited by say-and-sing; 03-17-2017 at 11:53 PM.


  3. #23
    anyway, on topic.
    Tou might have struggled vs Keisha's instinct, but it won't be as bad as strategic general vs Duke Hyou. And the quality difference is too big in the first place imo

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    We are talking about a person with no recorded loss. That is something not even Ouki can boast with. And you claim Keisha, who got outplayed by freaking Shin because he lost sight of him, to take him on and win.
    What am I reading


  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    not really sure what Zentos is arguing here... it's a fact that Karin is playing around and still managed to win her encounter with Tou.
    Let's just say that both Tou and Karin have no real amazing result, and yet he says Tou is good because Ouki and GHM says so, while Karin is bad even though Riboku, SSK and SHK says she's good

    tbh, no matter how I like Tou, it's still a real fact that Karin beat him easily. She only fails her "elites capture gate" strategy because Ordo got screwed up really badly by Ousen. Totally not her fault at all. Ofc she didn't need to kill Tou and Moubu army herself because it's not the point of the battle. Trying to massacre them all pretty much means that Chu's own troops will took a lot of damage from Tou and Moubu. Not to mention they will needs more than 5k elites because the reserve behind the gate would be perfectly prepared for them to come
    How is it a fact that Karin was playing around? She went all in and had it announced to Riboku that she was going to deliver Kankoku Pass to the alliance.
    The Elite getting through is the only form in which she beat him in a sense, but it clearly does not reflect on his ability to overcome an opponent who is trying to crush his army and not to avoid it. Had she been able to certainly defeat Tou she had not reason to not go on with this, killing one of Qin's generals would've made for a good diversion in itself and ensured the victory whether her elites made it through or not as the whole Chu army could've gone on to the Pass after wiping out Moubu with their 150k men.

    All in all Tou started the battle with 30k troops on the first day. Rinbukun had 60k, for nearly 15 days Tou's army only had small skirmishes with this army as Karin kept her men fresh. Then she attacked with what seems to be her own 60k fresh + 15k left from Rinbukun's troops, using peculiar quirks (elephants and chariots which required preparation and were totally unexpected) against a ragged down and seriously outnumbered opponent who still managed to hold out through the confrontation and in the end both of Tou's flank commanders were free to move and go after Karin directly.
    Karin certainly was very impressive at the time but she also certainly didn't "easily beat Tou" imo, and though the confrontation can count as a victory for her in no way does it make Tou look bad 'cause I can't see any general present at the time who'd have done better than him in these circumstances. (Moubu would've never made it to Karin, Kanki and Ousen would have struggled with these odds on the plains and there's no need to mention the old timers who would never have gotten past the elephants. Maybe Duke Hyou if he had managed to seize the initiative could've attempted to reach Karin with his instincts and his ability to prevail despite low numbers, though with worn down troops against Karin's elites even that is uncertain)

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dai Don Dedede View Post
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    How is it a fact that Karin was playing around? She went all in and had it announced to Riboku that she was going to deliver Kankoku Pass to the alliance.



    She was playing around with Tou instead of seriously fighting him

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    She was playing around with Tou instead of seriously fighting him
    I see where you come from but I don't think we should take the word of a very arrogant character in the process of boasting as she often does at face value. Karin is a show off and an over achiever, once she started to move she wanted to make sure to be recognized by Riboku and show everyone she was the real deal. Killing Tou was not her main objective, but there is no doubt that if she had really gotten the opportunity to do it she would have. She managed to devise a plan allowing her to have a chance to reach her objective without actually having to defeat Tou on the field, if anything it's more of a testament to Tou's strength that the flashy Karin did not attempt to take his head for everyone to see and to shame Kanmei and Rinbukun's troops by succeeding where they had failed.
    So yeah my point is she had many reasons to take Tou's head if she could, the fact that she used another way of getting through is far from being a proof of her fooling around (quite the contrary imo) but remains a strong feat for her nonetheless

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dai Don Dedede View Post
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    I see where you come from but I don't think we should take the word of a very arrogant character in the process of boasting as she often does at face value. Karin is a show off and an over achiever, once she started to move she wanted to make sure to be recognized by Riboku and show everyone she was the real deal. Killing Tou was not her main objective, but there is no doubt that if she had really gotten the opportunity to do it she would have. She managed to devise a plan allowing her to have a chance to reach her objective without actually having to defeat Tou on the field, if anything it's more of a testament to Tou's strength that the flashy Karin did not attempt to take his head for everyone to see and to shame Kanmei and Rinbukun's troops by succeeding where they had failed.
    So yeah my point is she had many reasons to take Tou's head if she could, the fact that she used another way of getting through is far from being a proof of her fooling around (quite the contrary imo) but remains a strong feat for her nonetheless
    to be fair, when is the last time a strategist manage to kill a martial type general in this manga?
    There's actually no one in Karin army who can put down Tou which has 96 [iirc] str

    Anyway, unlike normal Qin Army, all of Tou's army consist of Ouki's remnants, so they are indeed harder to defeat even though Karin's elites are still better than them. I still stand that trying to demolish Tou's army will pretty much make needless casualty for Chu side. Remember that the Coalition army is also enemies with each other after Qin is demolished. There aren't any reason to gimp their own army in this war if winning with less casualty is possible.

    I mean... Kanki should have taken Kokuyou even if he go with a bit more normal strategy [which doesn't look like a gamble], but everyone would say that the crazy strategy works really great because it gives as little casualties as possible

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    Ah-ah!


    don't forget, it was Kanki who outplayed Keisha first to give him that opening
    Sorry, but I don't get the first quote. What is it you are trying to prove?

    About the second, it was HSU breaking through a seemingly unbreakable river defense that pressured Zhao and allowed Kanki to play his silly games. Keisha underestimated Shin and HSU more than once and paid dearly for it, even after Riboku told him to take special notice of him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    not really sure what Zentos is arguing here... it's a fact that Karin is playing around and still managed to win her encounter with Tou.
    Let's just say that both Tou and Karin have no real amazing result, and yet he says Tou is good because Ouki and GHM says so, while Karin is bad even though Riboku, SSK and SHK says she's good

    tbh, no matter how I like Tou, it's still a real fact that Karin beat him easily. She only fails her "elites capture gate" strategy because Ordo got screwed up really badly by Ousen. Totally not her fault at all. Ofc she didn't need to kill Tou and Moubu army herself because it's not the point of the battle. Trying to massacre them all pretty much means that Chu's own troops will took a lot of damage from Tou and Moubu. Not to mention they will needs more than 5k elites because the reserve behind the gate would be perfectly prepared for them to come
    She beat what? Are we reading the same manga? All of her schemes failed. Who cares why they failed? Ouki got hit by a freaking cheat arrow, but Houken and Riboku are the famed generals who brought him down.
    The number advantage that Chu had against Qin was so ridiculous that a full frontal charge might have brought them the victory, but instead they went home like fucking dogs. They didn't win shit. Not only did Qin win that war, they are about to conquer the remaining 6 states. There is no Chu victory, there is no Karin victory, there is only a display of Qin's military might against overwhelming odds. Tou does not have a recorded loss. Karin failed to take KP, Karin failed to overpower Moubu during the rebellion and that's 2 losses I'm counting already. She had absolutely every single piece in her hands and blew them all because she got cocky. Is that not a trait of a bad general? Didn't Moubu fuck up in the exact same way and got Ouki killed?

    @say-and-sing;

    We aren't reading the same manga. There's no other explanation for what you just wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    What am I reading
    Sorry, but the truth.
    Riboku warned Keisha of Shin and requested his head, but Keisha paid no heed. Shin and the HSU overpowered the seemingly impenetrable river defense and Keisha still didn't take him seriously. The only reason why he charged at them was because Kanki pissed him off, not because he thought they were some kind of big threat. After that Shin and the HSU disappeared from his sight and he didn't care. The same Shin and HSU that Riboku warned him about took his head, because he took them for granted.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I need to sleep through this intoxication so I can destroy Nord tomorrow.
    Last edited by Zentos; 03-18-2017 at 01:55 AM.

  10. #30
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    It is insanity to even suggest that Tou loses here.
    No one is posing threat to him here.
    Keisha was good at beginning when he has number advantage which he doesn't have here.
    Tou would demolish anyone who comes in contract with him.
    He has HSU with him in case anyone forgot. No one from Zhao side can beat either Shin or Kyoukai. Kanki didn't help HSU in canon. Whatever they did in manga they would do it here too.
    So basically not only Keisha is facing someone whom he can't bait(Tou is a chill guy) but also he/Kisui has no answer to three powerhouses that Qin has.
    Qin beats the shit out of Zhao here.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    She beat what? Are we reading the same manga? All of her schemes failed. Who cares why they failed? Ouki got hit by a freaking cheat arrow, but Houken and Riboku are the famed generals who brought him down.

    We aren't reading the same manga. There's no other explanation for what you just wrote.
    So had Karin acted out her exact same plan but her elites arrived like 10 minutes earlier, taking down the pass, you as well as everyone in Kingdom would be carrying her on your shoulders. Alright.


  12. #32
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    It's pretty undeniable Karin's battle against Tou was her victory, even if she didn't open the gate afterwards. Tou's job was to block the passage and he failed, that's all. The elites being slaughtered in time by Ousen is not a concern of Tou vs Karin anymore, but more widely of the Coalition vs Qin picture.


  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    So had Karin acted out her exact same plan but her elites arrived like 10 minutes earlier, taking down the pass, you as well as everyone in Kingdom would be carrying her on your shoulders. Alright.
    10 minutes? Ousen had been there for days. It's her fault for not communicating something like that with the other commanders. The only reason it failed was because she wanted to hog all the glory for herself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    It's pretty undeniable Karin's battle against Tou was her victory, even if she didn't open the gate afterwards. Tou's job was to block the passage and he failed, that's all. The elites being slaughtered in time by Ousen is not a concern of Tou vs Karin anymore, but more widely of the Coalition vs Qin picture.
    I can't agree with that. No one knew about the existence of another 5k Karin elites, so how can Tou do anything about such a unit? Not to mention they had to take a 15day long detour to get there. There's no way Tou was responsible for keeping an eye on a unit so far out of the battlefield.
    If you wanna put the blame on someone, put it on the same person responsible for Riboku getting an army through to the Southern pass without anyone(except the Duke) noticing. And that is no one else but SHK and logistics who did not secure any scouts to oversee the areas surrounding the battlefield and warn them of any detachments.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    10 minutes? Ousen had been there for days. It's her fault for not communicating something like that with the other commanders. The only reason it failed was because she wanted to hog all the glory for herself.
    Ousen spent the morning/first half of the 15th day mindraping Ordo and killing his elites. It is clearly stated Ousen started moving with his men to the pass after his ambush, knowing Ordo would not move.

    So had Karin's men arrived, fine, a few hours earlier, then gg.


  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by say-and-sing View Post
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    Ousen spent the morning/first half of the 15th day mindraping Ordo and killing his elites. It is clearly stated Ousen started moving with his men to the pass after his ambush, knowing Ordo would not move.

    So had Karin's men arrived, fine, a few hours earlier, then gg.
    You are right. But, isn't that what a gamble is? You either win and get sung about, or you lose and you besmirch your name. Since when do we define reality by what-ifs and not by events that have actually happened? If she just told the other commanders, Ordo would know how to act. Can you blame him for being cautious after getting ambushed by Ousen? His only fault was to believe that Ousen would actually abandon the battlefield, and for that he's a dumb buffoon. Other than that, his actions were justified.

  16. #36
    How is Karin elites taking 15 days?
    I thought they only start moving at elephants play?

  17. #37
    That's nigh impossible. From the deployment of the elephants to the assault at the back of KP not more than an hour should have passed. Even if they went in a straight line with no interference I don't think they could make it that fast.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    How is Karin elites taking 15 days?
    I thought they only start moving at elephants play?
    it's what happened, yeah

    - - - Updated - - -

    if i recall right


  19. #39
    Either way it ended in failure. It was her own blunder because she has too much pride.

    Looking back at it, the whole Coalition army arc is unfair in a way. They way that the Qin generals got to shine was so bright that it's hard to put the other state's generals on the same level. They attacking army pulled out outrageous things like poison, huge siege machinery and elephants, but in the end they got outplayed on an individual level(losing duels) as well as a strategical level(failing to overpower a massively outnumbered enemy and allowing the Qin to pull of plays like Kanki's assassination of Seikai or Ousen brain-fucking everyone).

  20. #40
    It ended in failure because of Ousen's borderline ridiculous prediction powers. It was an excellent plan which only Ousen could have countered and came seconds from succeeding, and Ousen only got the opportunity because Ordo was unable to challenge him.

    Granted, Karin was the only general there besides Riboku who came off as a serious threat, the rest were jobbers.

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