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  1. #1

    Tou vs Keisha+ Kisui

    Scenario 1:
    At Kokoyou.

    Keisha with 40k men + Kisui with 30k men. Gakuei/Maron/Ryuutou/Batei all there obviously.
    vs
    Tou with 50k men + the HSU with 8k. Tou obviously has Rokuomi, Kanou and Ryuukoku.

    Scenario 2:
    The location is changed to Dakan Plains

  2. #2
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Kanki;
    Why is Maron in team 1?

    Anyway:
    Tou has been stated to stand head and shoulders above any other Qin general, with no weakness to exploit.

    Kanki and his troops obviously feel at home in forests and he has some unorthodox methods which were very useful in this particular fight, but in the end I think that Tou would take it comfortably as well.

    In s2 he can just plow through them, with no one in team 1 capable of dueling him or Shin, probably low-mid diff.

  3. #3
    Tou really has done nothing that really lives up to his hype, taking down Rinbukun was nice but that was basically in his capacity as a seatwarmer for Moubu's battle with the big fish. He got owned by Karin and if not for Ousen would have lost KP to her. And then he got showed up by Ouhon in the FD arc. I struggle to put him on the same level as Ousen/Kanki/Moubu, much less above.

    Still, its not like his opponents are anything too spectacular. He should have a much tougher time than Kanki who read Keisha perfectly but with the quality of his vassals and his personal might he should pull through.

  4. #4
    Juan's Avatar
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    He smacks.

    "Who are you to change the world?"

  5. #5
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Tenma;

    Except no one knew Karin had an extra 5k elites, even her allies forgot about them. It took them like 15 days to get to KP because they were taking a detour so far out, no one could possibly notice them. Blaming that on Tou is crazy talk. In fact, if you wanna talk Karin vs Tou, he held out with such a numbers disadvantage it's not even funny. Talk about Karin being inept.

    Ouhon's plan was full of holes and could've failed quite spectacularly. Tou is better than others exactly because he does not fail. He has not a single weakness to exploit. What you think on the matter doesn't really matter.
    Had Earl Shi had even a shred of will to live, Ouhon would've died in their first encounter and everyone would get wiped out. He got lucky, that's all there is to it.

  6. #6
    DoflaMihawk's Avatar
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    I read that as Tou and Keisha vs Kisui and was so sure it was a Crispy thread

  7. #7
    Dai Don Dedede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoflaMihawk View Post
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    I read that as Tou and Keisha vs Kisui and was so sure it was a Crispy thread
    Nah Crispy values Keisha. He could have made a Tou + Moubu vs Kisui though

  8. #8
    Crispinianus's Avatar
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    mismatch alert

    ring rong ring rong

  9. #9
    say-and-sing's Avatar
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    Tou? The guy who struggled against Kyou whats his name? *mean spirited*

    Srsly though, Keisha will have a feast, though short-lived.


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    @Tenma;

    Except no one knew Karin had an extra 5k elites, even her allies forgot about them. It took them like 15 days to get to KP because they were taking a detour so far out, no one could possibly notice them. Blaming that on Tou is crazy talk. In fact, if you wanna talk Karin vs Tou, he held out with such a numbers disadvantage it's not even funny. Talk about Karin being inept.

    Ouhon's plan was full of holes and could've failed quite spectacularly. Tou is better than others exactly because he does not fail. He has not a single weakness to exploit. What you think on the matter doesn't really matter.
    Had Earl Shi had even a shred of will to live, Ouhon would've died in their first encounter and everyone would get wiped out. He got lucky, that's all there is to it.
    Kinda fuzzy on the Coalition arc and the exact nature of Karin's elites. Still, Tou essentially got played consistently by Karin. Tou fell for both her strategies (the elephant distraction and Kouyoku as decoy) and was free to carry out her main objectives were it not for Mouten's and Ouhon's interference, and even so would probably have wiped him out were it not for Rokuomi and Kanou coming back from the dead and biting her in the rear.

    I doubt Ouhon's plan was bad since Tou himself decided it was the best course of action at any rate. Its true that Ouhon was too hotheaded and impatient in the battlefield which nearly cost him his life, but on the strategy table Hara played up Ouhon's brilliance at Tou's expense, since he thought up a strategy to defeat WFD in 5 minutes that Tou/Ryukoku had been unable to for hours.

    I do believe Tou to be an excellent general and will give him the benefit of the doubt against most opponents, but he hasn't been giving the feeling of indomitable power or strategic/instinctual brilliance like Qin's other generals.

  11. #11
    Karin is a formidable foe and tou was at a stee disadvantage so i give him a pass. Keisha and kisui are far lesser foes tou should win no problem and he has nice subs to help

  12. #12
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Tenma;
    If you are fuzzy, you can always re-read it. Her elites were stated to be #2 if not #1 in the entire Chu state. Tou got played, and all those plays amounted to a big zero. Honestly, Karin didn't even use surprise tactics, she just used surprises, because none of them brought her any kind of victory. Even the 2 commanders you mentioned that got cut off survived. Can she kill off anyone? Actually, she did kill someone. Her own, unsuspecting ally. Kanmei should've taken her head off her shoulders when he intended to. That way he wouldn't accept a duel because he would be the only general, and Chu would've won.

    There is plenty of reasons why Tou didn't bring such a plan up. For starters, it requires 3 commanders to dive in with their neck exposed. The only reason he actually went with it because they proposed the plan themselves, so even if they get killed, it's their own fault. Trying to belittle the man who was praised by Ouki himself to be his equal and by another general to be stronger than any Qin general is nonsense.

  13. #13
    say-and-sing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    @Tenma;
    Actually, she did kill someone. Her own, unsuspecting ally. Kanmei should've taken her head off her shoulders when he intended to. That way he wouldn't accept a duel because he would be the only general, and Chu would've won.
    Yeah, great idea, Kanmei and his buffoons vs. Moubu & Tou.

    As Riboku stated, Karin realised well what the loss of Rinbukun meant. Proud Chu who deemed sending Kouen a waste lost their first brute on day one without Qin's brute needed. And since Chu soliders are apparently hard to manage, Karin knew that if Kanmei got taken out, the battlefield would be lost. Which you can't blame on her, as Renpa himself was rather "I prefer not to" regarding leading Chu troops, and he managed to rally Wei troops like nothing.

    So Karin actually had to deal with Tou (whichshe did spledidly by sending noone, she just discovered days ago) while keeping Kanmei alive. If she was Chu-cic, she could have just posted snipers whatever around Kanmei, but Kanmei was too proud for that. And to make matters safe, she sent her elites to the gates. Not her fault Ordo got completely mind-raped by Ousen.

    Plus so far Karin got outspoken praise by SSK, Riboku and SHK. No need to downplay her.
    Last edited by say-and-sing; 03-17-2017 at 07:02 PM.


  14. #14
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @say-and-sing;

    Or, you know, she could've used the 5k elites she had on herself to run over Tou or Moubu. She fucked around and got fucked. If I were the king of Chu I'd have her executed. All these "brilliant" strategic plays she pulled amounted to a failure. She wanted to play dirty and it bit her in the ass. We are talking about 10k of possibly the best elites in the world. Had they been utilised properly, they could've won the battlefield and the war.

    And you didn't even try defending the fact that she cut off 2 commanders and their units and had them surrounded and outnumbered and they still got out alive. Can you name a single play she made that actually amounted to visible results? Because the elites to the gates didn't, the elephants and surprise attack didn't and even her attempt to assassinate Moubu with 1 soldier instead of her 5k elites didn't. Please do enlighten me why Karin is such a good general.

    That just isn't true. Kanmei was regarded as the strongest warrior by the whole world. Only SHK believed Moubu could pull that win. He had a numerical advantage, strategists AND himself as the strongest in the world. There is absolutely no reason what so ever for Karin to keep a lookout on Kanmei. None, and that can not be discussed. What Moubu pulled off is a miracle which no one could or should have predicted. Not with the facts that were known before their duel.

  15. #15
    Man of 1004 Gifts Void's Avatar
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    Zhao wins the first scenario but loses the second
    The Gift of Jericho, Drink it in maaaaaannnnnn!!!!


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  16. #16
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    Zhao wins the first scenario but loses the second
    How? You are saying that someone that might've surpassed Ouki by now is going to lose to Keisha.

  17. #17
    Man of 1004 Gifts Void's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    How? You are saying that someone that might've surpassed Ouki by now is going to lose to Keisha.
    Tou cannot leeroy Keisha and Kisui like he did Rinbukun. If the situation was flipped and Zhao had to attack Tou, I'd have no doubt Tou can defend but for him to attack with two subs that are < Zenou and no special forest compatibility besides Ryuukoku's navigation, I doubt they can mount a good enough attack to overcome the numbers and terrain advantage.

    Tou is a guy that depends on his subs a lot and he's also kinda by the book, not a guy with a recipe I'd want to take Zhao down here.
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  18. #18
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Void;

    I'm really having trouble here with all the downplaying Tou is getting.
    He got praised by Ouki to be his equal. He got praised by Reiou to be head and shoulders above any Qin general, because he does not have a weakness to exploit.
    Saying he plays strictly by the book is also a fallacy, because he took a semi-suicidal charge to get Ouki out of Zhao's army. That's not a by-the-book play.
    He stepped on to the battlefield at KP the moment he sensed a shift in balance. He recognized Ouhon's and Mouten's ability on the spot and gave them 5k units to save the seemingly dire situation. His instincts are by no means bad, on the contrary, they are really sharp.

    We are talking about a person with no recorded loss. That is something not even Ouki can boast with. And you claim Keisha, who got outplayed by freaking Shin because he lost sight of him, to take him on and win.

  19. #19
    Tou might have some trouble in scenario 1 but ultimately I don't see him losing. He has far too much firepower on his side. At worst I can see him taking Keisha's head but Kisui taking the hill but I don't see Kisui holding it. A day or two of fortifications isn't going to be enough to hold off Tou + co with the amount of firepower they are packing.

  20. #20
    Man of 1004 Gifts Void's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    @Void;

    I'm really having trouble here with all the downplaying Tou is getting.
    He got praised by Ouki to be his equal. He got praised by Reiou to be head and shoulders above any Qin general, because he does not have a weakness to exploit.
    Saying he plays strictly by the book is also a fallacy, because he took a semi-suicidal charge to get Ouki out of Zhao's army. That's not a by-the-book play.
    He stepped on to the battlefield at KP the moment he sensed a shift in balance. He recognized Ouhon's and Mouten's ability on the spot and gave them 5k units to save the seemingly dire situation. His instincts are by no means bad, on the contrary, they are really sharp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    Tou cannot leeroy Keisha and Kisui like he did Rinbukun. If the situation was flipped and Zhao had to attack Tou, I'd have no doubt Tou can defend but for him to attack with two subs that are < Zenou and no special forest compatibility besides Ryuukoku's navigation, I doubt they can mount a good enough attack to overcome the numbers and terrain advantage.

    Tou is a guy that depends on his subs a lot and he's also kinda by the book, not a guy with a recipe I'd want to take Zhao down here.
    Ah-ah!


    We are talking about a person with no recorded loss. That is something not even Ouki can boast with. And you claim Keisha, who got outplayed by freaking Shin because he lost sight of him, to take him on and win.
    don't forget, it was Kanki who outplayed Keisha first to give him that opening
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