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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    but he's like, Shin sized. Tou was pretty big himself although Rinbukun was bigger. It's simply against his style and he's going to be sent flying.

    He sacrifices control of the horse for better offense
    Shin blew back Houken and managed to hold his own against Gaimou so small guys at least in this manga can hold their own.

    It just happens to be the case that a lot of martial generals are 7-10 foot monstrosities, we don't really have many "small/normal" sized martial generals to begin with.

  2. #22
    I do think Rinbukun (and others on a 93 level) is being underrated. Characters with 6 or 7 points less than that can run through fodder with ease. It's a great score only reachable by a few. That's why I don't think guys like Zenou are in the mid to high 90's.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I do think Rinbukun (and others on a 93 level) is being underrated. Characters with 6 or 7 points less than that can run through fodder with ease. It's a great score only reachable by a few. That's why I don't think guys like Zenou are in the mid to high 90's.
    Riboku was only 91 and considered a martial beast. 93 is exceptional, anything above that is is monstrous tbh. At most Zenou is 94 in my eyes and I am iffy on whether he would be as strong as a Ranbi.

  4. #24
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I do think Rinbukun (and others on a 93 level) is being underrated. Characters with 6 or 7 points less than that can run through fodder with ease. It's a great score only reachable by a few. That's why I don't think guys like Zenou are in the mid to high 90's.
    You stood me up after I answered you.

    I'm gonna repeat myself here. Ranbihaku came at an expecting Tou(who is stronger and possesses a special parrying skill) and still managed to hurt him. Even though Tou has more weight, let's assume for a moment that their weight is the same, so the only difference is strength(+2) and parry(both for Tou).
    Tou also has 3 more strength than Rinbukun and still had a mid-high diff fight.

    Kisui(who had a massive weight advantage at the time) came at an unexpecting Zenou and got absolutely destroyed with zero effort.

  5. #25
    Yeah I too think Zeno is 93/94 max. That's a pretty damn high stat. Anything higher and we start going into the Duke hyou/Tou territory.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by felixng2015 View Post
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    Shin blew back Houken and managed to hold his own against Gaimou so small guys at least in this manga can hold their own.

    It just happens to be the case that a lot of martial generals are 7-10 foot monstrosities, we don't really have many "small/normal" sized martial generals to begin with.
    this isn't about being able to give hits, I have no doubt Bajio can do that but it's rather about taking them. Shin got tossed around like a rag doll against Gaimou and Houken. That's a severe disadvantage even if both fighters are equal in strength.


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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    You stood me up after I answered you.

    I'm gonna repeat myself here. Ranbihaku came at an expecting Tou(who is stronger and possesses a special parrying skill) and still managed to hurt him. Even though Tou has more weight, let's assume for a moment that their weight is the same, so the only difference is strength(+2) and parry(both for Tou).
    Tou also has 3 more strength than Rinbukun and still had a mid-high diff fight.

    Kisui(who had a massive weight advantage at the time) came at an unexpecting Zenou and got absolutely destroyed with zero effort.
    Weight or not Kisui is nothing special. He is only an 86 martial guy.... He would be a fly for Rinbukun too.

    Hard to say who is stronger between Rinbukun and Zenou. I peg Zenou slightly higher, he has the edge in brute strength most likely while Rinbukun may have a speed/skill edge.

  8. #28
    Kisui shouldn't have that much weight either.

  9. #29
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    Why not? We've seen how he affected the soldiers of Rigan and how passionate he was about protecting the city.

  10. #30
    Weight is like experience on the battlefield. It's how many comrades you've lost in battle fighting and how many enemies you've killed as explained in ch 165/166. Naturally the more battles you'be been in, the higher the number of those things will be as well.


    The will to protect Rigan is not weight. Even a strategist with piss poor fighting skill could have that will power and passion as well. It doesn't all of a sudden make them a different fighter.

  11. #31
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    He watched almost all the men in his city get burned alive. After that he rose Rigan to a new level of might in just a few years. How is he not a seasoned veteran?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    He watched almost all the men in his city get burned alive. After that he rose Rigan to a new level of might in just a few years. How is he not a seasoned veteran?
    He should have a bit of weight but moderate weight + 86 martial is still pretty weak .

    Like would you say Rinbukun wouldn't be able to replicate a similar feat? He fodderized an 88 martial guy.

  13. #33
    I didn't say he doesn't have weight. You talked about how passionate he was about protecting the city and I just said that's not weight. Other then that I don't think his weight is big enough that Zenou has to be at the very least 95 for it to make sense what Zenou did to him.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Why not? We've seen how he affected the soldiers of Rigan and how passionate he was about protecting the city.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    He watched almost all the men in his city get burned alive. After that he rose Rigan to a new level of might in just a few years. How is he not a seasoned veteran?
    I wouldn't say a guy with a tragic past and a string of small scale battles under his belt has a "general's" weight. After all, he's more like their nanny and not a general that has the fates of tens of thousands of soldiers or even hundreds of thousands of civilians on his shoulders i.e. a whole state's fate riding on his battles. He's a big frog in a well whereas to have that general's weight, you'd have to be a big fish in an ocean imo.

    The people of Rigan are more of a burden on him as seen with Kanki than they are a source of strength for him.


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  15. #35
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    I'm not giving Zenou a 95 just for what he did do Kisui. I'm giving it because of the circumstances under which he did it, as well as his other feats, some of which are crushing heads with a grip and tearing off cow heads. You are considering only the weight part of my argument, while completely overlooking the surprise factor, which we've seen in Tou's case is quite significant.
    He just looks way more impressive than, for example, Rinbukun. At least to me he does.

  16. #36
    Swap Zenou with Rinbunkun in the arc and I don't see him doing any worse.

  17. #37
    Zentos,

    Even if Zeno was 93/92, the difference between him and Kisui would be way bigger compared to the one between Tou and Ranbihaku.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Swap Zenou with Rinbunkun in the arc and I don't see him doing any worse.
    He would be too prideful to run, and even if he did decide to run he doesn't know flame hare. He's dead on day 1.
    Imagine for a second he gets a jackpot on the luck scale and gets out alive. Think he'll regroup to burn the hill?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luffee View Post
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    Zentos,

    Even if Zeno was 93/92, the difference between him and Kisui would be way bigger compared to the one between Tou and Ranbihaku.
    I'm having fun here, so bear with me.

    If we count the parry skill as +2 strength for example, that would put Tou at +4 compared to RBH. Seeing how in their brief clash they tied, that means the surprise factor(even though it wasn't that much of a surprise for Tou) counts for 4.

    +4 puts Kisui at 90. How much str does one need to obliterate a 90 str opponent:
    1) With a full, legit swing,
    2) The way Zenou did it?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    You stood me up after I answered you.
    I should probably stop ignoring my notifications

    I'm gonna repeat myself here. Ranbihaku came at an expecting Tou(who is stronger and possesses a special parrying skill) and still managed to hurt him. Even though Tou has more weight, let's assume for a moment that their weight is the same, so the only difference is strength(+2) and parry(both for Tou).
    Tou didn't physically see Ranbihaku reach him until the same point as Zenou saw Kisui:
    http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Kingdom/V...ns?id=318662#4
    http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Kingdom/V...w?id=318751#11

    Not only that but Zenou's obviously a brute of a fighter. Charging right up to him isn't the best way to beat him but that's the position Kisui but himself in. The whole arena was basically panic stations for everyone.

    Tou also has 3 more strength than Rinbukun and still had a mid-high diff fight.
    Kisui at 86 would be a 7 points away from Zenou if he's as strong as I think he is (93).

    Kisui(who had a massive weight advantage at the time) came at an unexpecting Zenou and got absolutely destroyed with zero effort.
    It was as expected as Tou/Ranbihaku. What makes you think Zenou didn't put in a single drop of effort? It's far more likely that he's a total brute who only has 1 gear when he fights. He doesn't strike me as someone who can fight casually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    I'm not giving Zenou a 95 just for what he did do Kisui. I'm giving it because of the circumstances under which he did it, as well as his other feats, some of which are crushing heads with a grip and tearing off cow heads. You are considering only the weight part of my argument, while completely overlooking the surprise factor, which we've seen in Tou's case is quite significant.
    He just looks way more impressive than, for example, Rinbukun. At least to me he does.
    That's because Rinbukun fought Rokuomi - the best fighter in the Tou army, and then Tou himself. Zenou has fought fodder. Look at how Batei was portrayed in the arc; broke Shins horse's leg, caused Shin problems and later squared off with Zenou himself yet he only had a 90.

  20. #40
    How did Kisui jump to 90 in the first place?

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