View Poll Results: Gay marriage: yay or nay?

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  • Yes

    15 93.75%
  • No

    1 6.25%
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Thread: Gay marriage

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by ReXDrake View Post
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    That's still unfair to other religious folk, who should be able to observe their faith however they wish. You might hold to your religion very closely, but theres nothing saying other people have to.
    That's completely unfair. What makes them so special that they get to follow their beliefs only when they want to? Can I make a legal agreement then choose to go back on any part of that contract based on my whims? No, of course not. This is absolutely no different.

    People need to be held to their beliefs. We need intellectual honestly in society, not a society poisoned by lust and based on whims.

    If you practice homosexuality and that doesn't go against your beliefs, not my problem. But if you adhere to a set of beliefs I'll hold you to them.

  2. #62
    Knight of Romance Heart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    That's completely unfair. What makes them so special that they get to follow their beliefs only when they want to? Can I make a legal agreement then choose to go back on any part of that contract based on my whims? No, of course not. This is absolutely no different.

    People need to be held to their beliefs. We need intellectual honestly in society, not a society poisoned by lust and based on whims.

    If you practice homosexuality and that doesn't go against your beliefs, not my problem. But if you adhere to a set of beliefs I'll hold you to them.
    no one is forcing you to do a good job practicing your beliefs but yourself, why should it be any different for any one else. Not sure how it's true faith if you're being forced to follow a belief, it has nothing to do with your own devotion if you don't have the freedom to sin.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    That's completely unfair. What makes them so special that they get to follow their beliefs only when they want to? Can I make a legal agreement then choose to go back on any part of that contract based on my whims? No, of course not. This is absolutely no different.

    People need to be held to their beliefs. We need intellectual honestly in society, not a society poisoned by lust and based on whims.

    If you practice homosexuality and that doesn't go against your beliefs, not my problem. But if you adhere to a set of beliefs I'll hold you to them.
    Its called freedom of expression. Religious conviction is so categorically different to a binding legal contract that I have no idea why you used it as an analogue. You aren't criminally liable for violating or abandoning your religion, that is something anyone is entitled to do. I understand that from the perspective of someone who does take their religion seriously the idea of someone being selective about how they follow their faith may be frustrating, but a muslim fornicating and consuming alcohol doesn't impact upon anyone elses wellbeing, so who are you to say they CANT do that?

  4. #64
    It's High Noon McCree's Avatar
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    Really now?

    Ignoring certain parts of your post because I don't have time nor do I really care to talk about them.

    I have been anti religious my entire life for this reason. You can't sit there and tell me it's OK to ignore certain parts of your holy texts. You do not get to cherry pick the good tenants of your holy book and then throw out certain parts of your text.

    (3:56) inf the Koran.

    There is no lnterptetation. Flat out. Your holy text explicitly says that people who reject faith will be punished with agony in this life and in the next. No argument, nothing else can be made.

    Your book orders the eternal torture of people like me. If your religious teachings allow you to continue to follow your beliefs in the face of something that horrid, then I have nothing left to say to you. You haven't got the right to speak about concepts like dehumanization when something like that lies within your text.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    no one is forcing you to do a good job practicing your beliefs but yourself, why should it be any different for any one else. Not sure how it's true faith if you're being forced to follow a belief, it has nothing to do with your own devotion if you don't have the freedom to sin.
    Untrue. I am kept in check by my friends, family and the larger Muslim community and vice-versa. You stop yourself, and others, from sinning through any means allowed. We're not angels or machines that can prevent ourselves from sinning based on nothing but pure devotion. We're human beings that require a societal safety net.

    Would you say this in regards to a government? That it's not true belief in a government if you are forced to comply with its laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReXDrake View Post
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    Its called freedom of expression. Religious conviction is so categorically different to a binding legal contract that I have no idea why you used it as an analogue. You aren't criminally liable for violating or abandoning your religion, that is something anyone is entitled to do. I understand that from the perspective of someone who does take their religion seriously the idea of someone being selective about how they follow their faith may be frustrating, but a muslim fornicating and consuming alcohol doesn't impact upon anyone elses wellbeing, so who are you to say they CANT do that?
    That's not freedom of expression, that's hypocrisy. There is a very clear difference.

    No, it's exactly the same. It's different to you because you are an atheist and as far as you're concerned we're make a deal with an entity that doesn't exist. But, regardless of your personal beliefs, an agreement was still made. That we would abide by the commandments of our religion. You don't have the freedom to disobey no more than you have the freedom to break your government's laws.

    One major issue I have with all of this is that you (rightfully) have an issue with religious people forcing their beliefs upon others, but apparently it's okay for you to push your beliefs on us. Muslims have made an agreement, not only with God but with other Muslims. It's understood that we will keep one another in check, that's a part of the faith. You infringe on our rights by attempting to dictate what we can't and can't do amongst ourselves.

    They aren't harming others, they are harming themselves. But you would have us watch by and do nothing while our brothers burn under the guise of 'freedom of expression.' Granted, I can't always force people. That depends on my status as well as my relationship with them. But the point is we don't believe in the sort of unrestricted freedom you do and you should respect that.


    Quote Originally Posted by McCree View Post
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    Really now?

    Ignoring certain parts of your post because I don't have time nor do I really care to talk about them.

    I have been anti religious my entire life for this reason. You can't sit there and tell me it's OK to ignore certain parts of your holy texts. You do not get to cherry pick the good tenants of your holy book and then throw out certain parts of your text.

    (3:56) inf the Koran.

    There is no lnterptetation. Flat out. Your holy text explicitly says that people who reject faith will be punished with agony in this life and in the next. No argument, nothing else can be made.

    Your book orders the eternal torture of people like me. If your religious teachings allow you to continue to follow your beliefs in the face of something that horrid, then I have nothing left to say to you. You haven't got the right to speak about concepts like dehumanization when something like that lies within your text.
    So not only do you choose to ignore my point regarding the golden rule, but you also want to make yourself look like a fool by spouting false information.

    Whenever you read the Quran or Hadith, or any text is any language, you need to take two things into consideration. One is the context of the text and the other is the structure of the language.

    The verse you quoted does state that disbelievers will be punished in this world and the next. But, in this context, a disbeliever refers to someone to whom the truth of Islam is made clear and they reject it regardless and not every non-Muslim. Imam Ghazali had said that the people of Byzantium might be saved because all they've heard about the religion is that Muhammad SAW is some sort of pedophialic killer. Likewise, you might be saved because apparently you think this religion is some sort of weird death cult. And, in modern times, the absence of an Islamic State is possibly enough for many non-Muslims to be saved since it's the job of the state to spread the message of Islam.

    Curiously enough, you did not mention the verse that supposedly tells us to kill all disbelievers. Nor do you seem to have any idea about the sacredness of Dhimmi blood, or what a dhimmi even is.

  6. #66
    ReXDrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    Untrue. I am kept in check by my friends, family and the larger Muslim community and vice-versa. You stop yourself, and others, from sinning through any means allowed. We're not angels or machines that can prevent ourselves from sinning based on nothing but pure devotion. We're human beings that require a societal safety net.

    Would you say this in regards to a government? That it's not true belief in a government if you are forced to comply with its laws?



    That's not freedom of expression, that's hypocrisy. There is a very clear difference.

    No, it's exactly the same. It's different to you because you are an atheist and as far as you're concerned we're make a deal with an entity that doesn't exist. But, regardless of your personal beliefs, an agreement was still made. That we would abide by the commandments of our religion. You don't have the freedom to disobey no more than you have the freedom to break your government's laws.

    One major issue I have with all of this is that you (rightfully) have an issue with religious people forcing their beliefs upon others, but apparently it's okay for you to push your beliefs on us. Muslims have made an agreement, not only with God but with other Muslims. It's understood that we will keep one another in check, that's a part of the faith. You infringe on our rights by attempting to dictate what we can't and can't do amongst ourselves.

    They aren't harming others, they are harming themselves. But you would have us watch by and do nothing while our brothers burn under the guise of 'freedom of expression.' Granted, I can't always force people. That depends on my status as well as my relationship with them. But the point is we don't believe in the sort of unrestricted freedom you do and you should respect that.




    So not only do you choose to ignore my point regarding the golden rule, but you also want to make yourself look like a fool by spouting false information.

    Whenever you read the Quran or Hadith, or any text is any language, you need to take two things into consideration. One is the context of the text and the other is the structure of the language.

    The verse you quoted does state that disbelievers will be punished in this world and the next. But, in this context, a disbeliever refers to someone to whom the truth of Islam is made clear and they reject it regardless and not every non-Muslim. Imam Ghazali had said that the people of Byzantium might be saved because all they've heard about the religion is that Muhammad SAW is some sort of pedophialic killer. Likewise, you might be saved because apparently you think this religion is some sort of weird death cult. And, in modern times, the absence of an Islamic State is possibly enough for many non-Muslims to be saved since it's the job of the state to spread the message of Islam.

    Curiously enough, you did not mention the verse that supposedly tells us to kill all disbelievers. Nor do you seem to have any idea about the sacredness of Dhimmi blood, or what a dhimmi even is.
    No it isn't. The pact you make with your God is completely personal and informal. It cant be compared to a legal agreement, where there are tangible punishments in this life for breaking terms. If someone WANTS to be kept in check by others, than what you've said might have some merit, but im talking about people who don't. They want the freedom to be able to practice their religion however they please. Its THOSE people you have no right to order around. Like I said, sad as it may be to see or hear of some muslims harming themselves and deteriorating their relationship with Allah, if that's what they want to do, then so be it, its their right.

  7. #67
    Winter is cumming Hoe's Avatar
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    Marriage is a punishment.


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