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  1. #21
    Crispinianus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    You quoted me, but you failed to address the actual argument of my post. I said Renpa may not actively go out seeking a duel, but I don't think he'd be taking measures to avoid one if such a scenario came up. If he sees Moubu digging into his army with a level of force unmatched in China then I don't think it's out of character for a prideful general who is completely confident in his martial might to step out and confront him, especially if he's the son of a guy who he shares a long history with who just gave him an embarrassing defeat at Wei.

    It's honestly similar to how Kanmei played it; Kanmei didn't thin out his ranks and create a path to himself because he was so eager to duel Moubu that he allowed him to dig in that far. He saw that Moubu was tearing through his men like an unstoppable force and figured he was becoming enough of a problem to deal with personally, which is what I can see Renpa doing here. While he won't rush out to confront a Gaimou taunting him from the sidelines, I don't think he's going to run from a true general and most prized head on the battlefield is aiming for him personally. Remember that Qin is actually the one defending on this battlefield, Chu is the offensive and compounded with the threat and pressure of the Tou army wiping out his other fronts I see as forcing Renpa to take that kind of initiative.
    I didn't address it because I said Moubu isn't going to create such a scenario this time. Renpa is proud, but he's not stupid. He's the only -the only- great general of the 3GH/6GQ era who lived long enough to reach grandpa age, and I doubt he's made it by throwing away his life each time his pride was at stake. Unless we assume nobody was stronger then Renpa at the time so he could tank through any duel or danger of sort with his mere muscles, and then that current era (with Moubu, Kanmei and eventually Houken) is so much above the glorified old gen in the muscle sphere, there's no way you could see Renpa comfortably sitting on his HQ while his men prepare a red carpet for Moubu like Kanmei did. He's definitely taking measures to defeat him in long range, and without hesitation.
    Last edited by Crispinianus; 02-28-2017 at 05:58 PM.

  2. #22
    Kanmei didn't throw up a red carpet for Moubu. He threw up a large defensive wall of soldiers and only got involved once it was clear that they weren't holding Moubu back.

    It's obvious Renpa has gotten into a ton of duels against powerful martial fighters, he's a guy who's shown to be very proactive and lead like a tiger from the front many times, you don't become as strong as Renpa by sitting back and handling all of your battles from afar. His body is covered in scars and he's one of the strongest men in the series, he's obviously reached that point by engaging in a ton of intense fights that have pushed him to his limit and beyond.

    Duke Hyou is also a legend who lived to Grandpa age as and he's one of the most reckless dudes around, sticking his neck out in every battle and aiming directly for the head of the enemy. Shin will go down as the Greatest General in China and we've seen how he operates.
    Last edited by Great Potato; 02-28-2017 at 06:16 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Kanmei didn't throw up a red carpet for Moubu. He threw up a large defensive wall of soldiers and only got involved once it was clear that they weren't holding Moubu back.
    Kanmei had not a reason in the world to avoid the duel. He knew he was the strongest in the world, and not even Oukotsu proved a challenge for him. Kanmei wasn't afraid of facing Moubu head on, while Renpa would be, since he's a tad more perceptive and more aware.

    Moubu won a tactical confrontation with almost half Kanmei's numbers with a tactic Shouheikun developed for him on a table weeks before, and this against the proudest Chu men, no less than three strategists and a commander who doesn't lose to Moubu himself in the leadership department. Did you have the impression Kanmei tried so hard? Winning that battle without crossing maces would have been a disgrace, if anything. Here's your difference.

    Not necessarily saying Kanmei could have annihilated Moubu on long range even if he actually wanted to, anyway. But Renpa under the same conditions could. Beyond any doubt.

  4. #24
    Its possible Renpa could deal with Moubu without engaging in a duel in a better situation but the situation here is very unfavorable and makes it frankly impossible.

    1) He is using Chu troops here, if he had Zhao troops instead it would make things different.
    2) He has to deal with Tou as well. His two subs have no chance against Tou + his subs + the two up and comers.

    Once Tou breaks free its game over no matter what Renpa does. He can't deal with two fronts led by Moubu and Tou.

  5. #25
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    Kyouen has been sparring with Ousen for days. I don't see why he + Kaishibou can't hold Tou back for the time necessary for Renpa to deal with the impatient Moubu.

    I wrote under the assumption Renpa suffers no foreign malus for the thread's sake. I'm not sure myself how things would go if we count this factor in, so I just left it out.

  6. #26
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    Qin would have an easier time. As much as I like Kyouen's abilities, Karin's >> his in this situation. Rinbukun is >Kaishibou although I think Rinbukun is dumber, but he does his job. Renpa is so much more valuable than Kanmei overall, and SHK would rack his brains trying to set up Moubu vs Renpa. I think there's a 50% that isn't needed though, if Renpa decides to be decisively flashy if Kyouen/Kaishibou are reduced to non factors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    If they were on their own, this wouldn't be a match. But as the hands of Renpa in the field, it's a different story. Also, I think Kyouen can comfortably stall Tou, while Kaishibou is not so much an idiot to think he can stand up to Moubu, so the war isn't insta-decided.

    At that point Renpa would just put his experience, instinct and drunkard brain on the balance to take the battle for himself.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Kyouen has been sparring with Ousen for days. I don't see why he + Kaishibou can't hold Tou back for the time necessary for Renpa to deal with the impatient Moubu.

    I wrote under the assumption Renpa suffers no foreign malus for the thread's sake. I'm not sure myself how things would go if we count this factor in, so I just left it out.
    Don't forger there's also Rokuomi, Ryuukoku, Kanou and Rinbou. And Ouhon/Mouten.

  8. #28

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Kanmei had not a reason in the world to avoid the duel. He knew he was the strongest in the world, and not even Oukotsu proved a challenge for him. Kanmei wasn't afraid of facing Moubu head on, while Renpa would be, since he's a tad more perceptive and more aware.
    I highly doubt Renpa would be afraid of facing off against anybody. You don't become a fighter who ranks among the 5 strongest characters in the series by being afraid of other strong fighters, especially when Moubu's true strength hadn't become known throughout China. There's no merit to think of Renpa as someone who runs from a duel like he's Gohoumei trying to save his own neck, there are few more prideful or honorable generals in the series than him. If he survived to his old age it's because he was just that good, the scars decorating his body tell the story of a man who got into several life or death fights that made him what he is today, not a man who gets afraid because a general coming after him looks pretty strong.

    Moubu won a tactical confrontation with almost half Kanmei's numbers with a tactic Shouheikun developed for him on a table weeks before, and this against the proudest Chu men, no less than three strategists and a commander who doesn't lose to Moubu himself in the leadership department. Did you have the impression Kanmei tried so hard? Winning that battle without crossing maces would have been a disgrace, if anything. Here's your difference.
    Yes, I do believe Kanmei tried hard. He had the most important role in the entire war and he's a Great General that took his duty seriously, he wasn't going to half ass his role. He didn't open up a red carpet for Moubu, he made tactical maneuvers to counter the formations that Moubu sent at him and only stepped in when it was made clear that his defenses weren't going to stop Moubu's charge. By the time Moubu started his charge and it became apparent what his goal was, there was nothing they could do, not a tactician in the series who could have salvaged that situation. He didn't open up a red carpet for him to come through or rush to the front of the army telling Moubu to settle things with a fight. It's just more of your constant Moubu downplaying that you have to pretend his opponents just gave up and let themselves be destroyed because you don't want to give credit to his achievements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Kyouen has been sparring with Ousen for days. I don't see why he + Kaishibou can't hold Tou back for the time necessary for Renpa to deal with the impatient Moubu.

    I wrote under the assumption Renpa suffers no foreign malus for the thread's sake. I'm not sure myself how things would go if we count this factor in, so I just left it out.
    The "impatient Moubu" spent the entire war on the sidelines waiting for the right moment to strike, I know you like to downplay Moubu, but don't just make random stuff up about him. He had a ton of development that arc about how he'd grown from Bayou and became much more tempered and clear headed, and reached 6GG level without a doubt. Qin is defending so they don't need to make any sudden or reckless moves.

    Kyouen and Kaishibou are both offensive generals, if they get forced onto the defensive trying to stall-out and hold against a superior army then they're going to be ill-suited for the task. Tou on the other hand is perhaps the best tactician in Qin facing them in direct warfare with a lot more pieces to work with here. Those two are in way over their heads.

  10. #30
    This would be a lot more interesting if you gave Renpa Zhao troops and all 4 HK or at the very least Rinbukun and the two Chu up and comers.

    Odds are way too stacked against him in this scenario.

    He is up against Moubu, his subs, Tou, 2 of the new gen and a few standout Tou subs and he has to work with Chu troops.

  11. #31
    Personally I didn't mention the new generation because I'm assuming they'll be there lol...
    But I can't see them being that much of a difference here... Even if we add Rinbukun in the mix, he's pretty much going to die in first day since he's too prideful to hear Renpa and too weak to cross blade with Qin's generals

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