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  1. #1

    If Chu were to send Renpa

    So, if Chu didn't send Kanmei, Karin and Rinbukun, but choose to send Renpa and his 2 HK guys... would Qin take the battle easier or would Qin got destroyed?



    the field doesn't seems to favour Renpa with Chu army I guess.. especially when the enemy is Moubu.

    Maybe throw Karin or Kanmei along with Renpa? but that would be too easy for Chu side eh
    Last edited by gn_x00; 02-28-2017 at 10:11 AM.

  2. #2
    Crispinianus's Avatar
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    Renpa facing Moubu and Tou on numerical superiority?

    The field doesn't particularly favor him, but he's always Renpa. If we ignore all the political repercussions of such a choice, and assuming no strong leadership malus given by a foreigner on the lead, Chu has probably easier time.


  3. #3
    don't you think the 2 HK guys would be way outmatched by either Tou or Moubu here?

  4. #4
    Crispinianus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    don't you think the 2 HK guys would be way outmatched by either Tou or Moubu here?
    If they were on their own, this wouldn't be a match. But as the hands of Renpa in the field, it's a different story. Also, I think Kyouen can comfortably stall Tou, while Kaishibou is not so much an idiot to think he can stand up to Moubu, so the war isn't insta-decided.

    At that point Renpa would just put his experience, instinct and drunkard brain on the balance to take the battle for himself.


  5. #5
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    Not a whole lot Renpa can do against Moubu on that location. I'd say Qin have an easier time.

  6. #6
    Renpa is a weak shit compared to Kanmei plain offensive power. Ouhon and Mouten probably gonna smash both renpa HK

  7. #7
    That battlefield was perfect for Moubu. No forests, no mountains, just plains for a slaughter. Don't think anyone would like facing Moubu there, especially when he had a tactic and didn't just charge like a fool.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    That battlefield was perfect for Moubu. No forests, no mountains, just plains for a slaughter. Don't think anyone would like facing Moubu there, especially when he had a tactic and didn't just charge like a fool.
    A tactic made to create a path to Kanmei, yeah, but would it work against Renpa?


  9. #9
    Chu would lose even worse. Renpa is at a big disadvantage with Chu troops.

    And his worth isn't equal to Karin + Kanmei.

  10. #10
    Qin should still be taking this one.

    Rinbunkun > Kaishibou and Karin > Kyouen and there's no rookies to keep Ouhon and Mouten occupied in this battle. The Tou army should have a lot less pressure put upon them in this battle and I'd say they could actually end up overwhelming their opponent instead of just barely trying to survive. Kaishibou is rather limited in what he can do since getting too aggressive would cost his head against three people who could match or kill him (Tou, Ouhon, Rokuomi/Rinbou combo).

    Renpa himself can't get directly involved with that war when the Moubu army is standing in the back waiting to pounce, and he's smart enough to realize that. I'm doubtful Renpa would do better than Kanmei here against Moubu. Renpa wouldn't go with such a flat predictable defense that SHK would be able to give Moubu the play by play on how to combat him, he'd do well in leadership, but he wouldn't be able to instill them with the same level of Chu pride that Kanmei did which turned his army into fighting machines. Moubu might even gain extra weight considering he's facing the guy who tormented his father for so long, and also stir a flame within Renpa if he learns he's facing Mougou's son, I don't see Renpa being able to avoid a duel here which will be Moubu's victory.

  11. #11
    Chu lose.. Even though Renpa may not fall for the echelon formation, it's irrelevant. In the CW Chu had both of Qin's two Generals tied up, whereas here, either Tou or Moubu will go through the HK's (either physically, martially or tactically) leading them to double team Renpa. Not to mention Renpa will struggle to motivate Chu soldiers to the degree that Kanmei did.

    If you gave Renpa his 4 heavenly Kings he may stand a better chance. Give him Zhao soldiers as well and it's interesting.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by felixng2015 View Post
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    Chu would lose even worse. Renpa is at a big disadvantage with Chu troops.

    And his worth isn't equal to Karin + Kanmei.
    His worth is much higher.

    But I agree with bolded. I assumed no foreign malus to make the match limited to military grounds.


  13. #13
    No way is Renpa on his own superior to both Karin and Kanmei combined lol. Don't forget Karin is one of the major obstacles to a generation who will surpass Renpa's generation.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    No way is Renpa on his own superior to both Karin and Kanmei combined lol. Don't forget Karin is one of the major obstacles to a generation who will surpass Renpa's generation.
    Even if you assumed Karin as smart as Renpa and Kanmei with as much leadership as Renpa (which is questionable), he'd still have an hallucinatingly quantity of experience more, and they're no match in instinct.


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    His worth is much higher.

    But I agree with bolded. I assumed no foreign malus to make the match limited to military grounds.
    Kanmei is stronger martially than Renpa which is a big thing in a plains matchup where he will have to deal with troublesome foes like Moubu and Tou.

    Neither may be as good as Renpa leadership wise but there is great worth in having two elite commanders over one super elite one even.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Even if you assumed Karin as smart as Renpa and Kanmei with as much leadership as Renpa (which is questionable), he'd still have an hallucinatingly quantity of experience more, and they're no match in instinct.
    They're also superior martially, in offensive might and most importantly numbers (2vs1). Renpa dealing with one of the two means that behind him - where he doesn't have as much authority since he can't be in two places at once - his army is without a commander.

    If Renpa is at the HQ dealing strategically with Karin, Kanmei can help pummel any Renpa-less army he comes across. If Renpa rides out to meet Kanmei and deal a swift blow, he likely loses in the offensive front and surely loses if there's a duel, whilst if Renpa instead decides to attack Kanmei tactically, then Karin will have time and space to manipulate the battlefield as she sees fit.

    Only way it's feasible for Renpa to win here is if he is on the defensive and just attempts to hold out with all out defence. Any other scenario and it's gg.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by felixng2015 View Post
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    Kanmei is stronger martially than Renpa which is a big thing in a plains matchup where he will have to deal with troublesome foes like Moubu and Tou.

    Neither may be as good as Renpa leadership wise but there is great worth in having two elite commanders over one super elite one even.
    Well, I'm not so sure about that. I also think Kanmei is stronger, but the fact is, there's absolutely no guarantee a battle in the order of 200 thousands would end up in a duel. In the real Kankoku Pass battle, it did because both Moubu and Kanmei WANTED it to happen, they wanted to duel with each other and they wanted the winner of this duel to be the winner of the battle itself. But there's no reason for Renpa to do the same. Actually, there's no way on earth he'd allow Moubu to come all the way to his HQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    They're also superior martially, in offensive might and most importantly numbers (2vs1). Renpa dealing with one of the two means that behind him - where he doesn't have as much authority since he can't be in two places at once - his army is without a commander.

    If Renpa is at the HQ dealing strategically with Karin, Kanmei can help pummel any Renpa-less army he comes across. If Renpa rides out to meet Kanmei and deal a swift blow, he likely loses in the offensive front and surely loses if there's a duel, whilst if Renpa instead decides to attack Kanmei tactically, then Karin will have time and space to manipulate the battlefield as she sees fit.

    Only way it's feasible for Renpa to win here is if he is on the defensive and just attempts to hold out with all out defence. Any other scenario and it's gg.
    It's not like I'd be so quick to give Renpa a matchup against both Karin and Kanmei. I thought we were speaking of how much he's worth compared to them, not about who'd win in a battle. The scenario in the op is different.


  18. #18
    While Renpa may not be seeking a duel with Moubu, I don't think he's the type to actively avoid one either. He's not going to go out and entertain a punk like Gaimou who just announces himself and challenges a duel, but if Moubu crashes into his men with his overwhelming momentum and destructive force then I can see Renpa getting personally involved just like Kanmei did. He's pretty proud and confident of his strength and if he sees he's up against the son of Mougou, who had just given him a humiliating defeat at Wei, then I can see that stirring up a fire within him and making him interested in combating Moubu personally.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    While Renpa may not be seeking a duel with Moubu, I don't think he's the type to actively avoid one either. He's not going to go out and entertain a punk like Gaimou who just announces himself and challenges a duel, but if Moubu crashes into his men with his overwhelming momentum and destructive force then I can see Renpa getting personally involved just like Kanmei did. He's pretty proud and confident of his strength and if he sees he's up against the son of Mougou, who had just given him a humiliating defeat at Wei, then I can see that stirring up a fire within him and making him interested in combating Moubu personally.
    The only way for Renpa to reach a point from which he can't back out from the duel, is for Moubu to make all the way to his HQ, or their two main units to encounter in the battlefield when both are on the lead. But even you should see that, with a superior numeric ratio of 3/2, Renpa doesn't lack the means to stop, repel or wipe out Moubu before such an occurrence would ever be on sight.


  20. #20
    I don't think Renpa even has the luxury to sit behind his defenses waiting for Moubu when his subordinates are getting overwhelmed on the other front. Kaishibou is going to be worse off than Rinbunkun in every possible way, he can't rally the prideful Chu soldiers like Rinbunkun could. His strength lies in his momentum and destruction, but he can't get aggressive here without paying for his life since he's even weaker than Rinbunkun as a fighter and there's no Chu rookies keeping Ouhon and Mouten occupied this time. Ouhon and Tou can take his head while Rokuomi could fight on par with him and even take him out with Rinbou assistance. He either plays it safe from behind his men where he won't be able to contribute much or he tries personally tearing into the Qin and loses his life the first day like Rinbunkun, leaving it just Kyouen to deal with Tou's army.

    Kyouen himself I see as more useful in a different battlefield like a forest where he can create more elaborate attack patterns, he's in over his head here regardless trying to deal with the amount of men he's up against here. Tou, Rokuomi, Kanou, Ryuukoku, Rinbou, Douken, Ouhon, and Mouten against just Kyouen and Kaishibou on a plains match where they're going to have a tougher time rallying their troops, who are prideful Chu warriors. The fact that they're both offensive generals means they're not going to be ill equipped to even hold out on the defensive for Renpa.

    If Renpa ignores his subordinates then the Tou Army is going to break through and he'll be fighting off two fronts, and if he tries bolstering their numbers then he'll thin out his own army which will make it easier for Moubu to break through. He can't take a direct initiative towards their battlefield without sparking Moubu into action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    The only way for Renpa to reach a point from which he can't back out from the duel, is for Moubu to make all the way to his HQ, or their two main units to encounter in the battlefield when both are on the lead. But even you should see that, with a superior numeric ratio of 3/2, Renpa doesn't lack the means to stop, repel or wipe out Moubu before such an occurrence would ever be on sight.
    You quoted me, but you failed to address the actual argument of my post. I said Renpa may not actively go out seeking a duel, but I don't think he'd be taking measures to avoid one if such a scenario came up. If he sees Moubu digging into his army with a level of force unmatched in China then I don't think it's out of character for a prideful general who is completely confident in his martial might to step out and confront him, especially if he's the son of a guy who he shares a long history with who just gave him an embarrassing defeat at Wei.

    It's honestly similar to how Kanmei played it; Kanmei didn't thin out his ranks and create a path to himself because he was so eager to duel Moubu that he allowed him to dig in that far. He saw that Moubu was tearing through his men like an unstoppable force and figured he was becoming enough of a problem to deal with personally, which is what I can see Renpa doing here. While he won't rush out to confront a Gaimou taunting him from the sidelines, I don't think he's going to run from a true general and most prized head on the battlefield is aiming for him personally. Remember that Qin is actually the one defending on this battlefield, Chu is the offensive and compounded with the threat and pressure of the Tou army wiping out his other fronts I see as forcing Renpa to take that kind of initiative.

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