Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 50
  1. #21
    It's not as easy as some believe. The location isn't suited to Duke's charges so straight away he's been neutered a little bit. In the CW vs Keisha neither side could really dent the other and even though Duke had the huge numerical disadvantage, it was on a plains. Duke also didn't have to defeat Zhao either - he just had to hold out and prevent being wiped out. Here, he has to actually take out Keisha/enough Zhao soldiers.

    If we're to take their styles into account as well, this location definitely helps a spider who lays traps ahead of a lion who needs to be able to see to act.

    Duke wins though. High difficult maybe. He's a level above Keisha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Xin View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Duke Hyou actually defeated Riboku's greatest shown tactic and would of won the battle if Riboku didn't have his Houken with him all the time.
    Riboku wouldn't have stood there had Houken not been there however.

  2. #22
    Riboku wouldn't have known that Duke Hyou would of conquered his Ryuudouryuku.

    He took a legit L from Duke Hyou.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Duke Hyou also killed ten thousands soldiers of Zhao to get Keisha out of his 120,000 strong army. He was actively trying to kill Keisha, not hold out against the Zhao Army.

    This speaks volume of Duke Hyou's strength who have an enormous troops disparity yet he was still slaying down the numbers on the Zhao side.





    一百万年白日梦冰蚕(1,000,000 Years Daydream Ice Silkworm)
    四十万年冰玉皇帝蝎子(400,000 Years Ice Jade Emperor Scorpion Hyotei)
    七十万年冰天堂雪女雪雪皇帝(700,000 Years Ice Heavenly Snow Woman 'Snow Emperor' Xue Nu)

    十万年八角神秘冰厂(100,000 Years Octagonal Mysterious Ice Plant)
    三十万年冰熊国王小白(300,000 Years Ice Bear King Xiao Bai)
    十万年海美人公主李雅(100,000 Years Sea Mermaid Princess Li Ya)
    七十万年恶魔皇帝(700,000 Years Evil Eye Tyrant Emperor)

    Limit Individual, 'The strength to move unhindered throughout the world'


  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Xin View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Riboku wouldn't have known that Duke Hyou would of conquered his Ryuudouryuku.

    He took a legit L from Duke Hyou.
    He didn't anticipate it happening but he still took precautions. http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Kingdom/V...pe?id=318593#4

    "There is a meaning for this place being the stage for the finale". Even for Duke to defeat the Ryuudou, he then becomes isolated from his soldiers and walks straight into Houken, which was an extra layer to Riboku's strategy.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He didn't anticipate it happening but he still took precautions. http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Kingdom/V...pe?id=318593#4

    "There is a meaning for this place being the stage for the finale". Even for Duke to defeat the Ryuudou, he then becomes isolated from his soldiers and walks straight into Houken, which was an extra layer to Riboku's strategy.
    Houken is the dues ex machina in this series.

    Without Houken, Riboku would of lost his life when Duke Hyou hit him from behind.





    一百万年白日梦冰蚕(1,000,000 Years Daydream Ice Silkworm)
    四十万年冰玉皇帝蝎子(400,000 Years Ice Jade Emperor Scorpion Hyotei)
    七十万年冰天堂雪女雪雪皇帝(700,000 Years Ice Heavenly Snow Woman 'Snow Emperor' Xue Nu)

    十万年八角神秘冰厂(100,000 Years Octagonal Mysterious Ice Plant)
    三十万年冰熊国王小白(300,000 Years Ice Bear King Xiao Bai)
    十万年海美人公主李雅(100,000 Years Sea Mermaid Princess Li Ya)
    七十万年恶魔皇帝(700,000 Years Evil Eye Tyrant Emperor)

    Limit Individual, 'The strength to move unhindered throughout the world'


  5. #25
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,245
    Duke Hyou, the man

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Amol View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Keisha needed overwhelming advantage at KP to just stalemate Duke .
    first day Keisha had Duke Hyou on the ropes and was destroying his rear until Shin's miracle rally. From then it was Karin's idea of attrition warfare that neither made any decisive moves.


    The Glorious Fellowship of the Round Jacuzzi:

  7. #27
    Crispinianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    39,832
    Was about to autogive scenario 2 to Keisha, but for the Duke having firestarters might make up for the disadvantage of being opposed to so many good officers.

    I still think Keisha takes both, but i wouldn't be able to say which scenario is closer.


  8. #28
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,245
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Was about to autogive scenario 2 to Keisha, but for the Duke having firestarters might make up for the disadvantage of being opposed to so many good officers.

    I still think Keisha takes both, but i wouldn't be able to say which scenario is closer.
    Just how do you see Keisha winning without an overwhelming number advantage? He couldn't even deal with Kanki and died a fool's death. Not even remotely impressed by Keisha.

    The Duke always lost some soldiers in the beginning of a war, but would prevail every time. That's his style of warfare and he's always worked like that, so losing some soldiers before Shin stepped in at KP does not speak against the Duke.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    first day Keisha had Duke Hyou on the ropes and was destroying his rear until Shin's miracle rally. From then it was Karin's idea of attrition warfare that neither made any decisive moves.
    It was Mangoku destroying the rear under Keisha's orders, a bit different since Keisha doesn't have that tool to use here. He could still try digging into the rear, but average soldiers aren't going to be putting in near the same level of damage as the Qin hating zombies led by Mangoku of assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Just how do you see Keisha winning without an overwhelming number advantage? He couldn't even deal with Kanki and died a fool's death. Not even remotely impressed by Keisha.
    You say that as though Kanki isn't one of the most dangerous generals you could possibly face in the forest.
    Last edited by Great Potato; 02-27-2017 at 08:25 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It was Mangoku destroying the rear under Keisha's orders, a bit different since Keisha doesn't have that tool to use here. He could still try digging into the rear, but average soldiers aren't going to be putting in near the same level of damage as the Qin hating zombies led by Mangoku of assault.



    You say that as though Kanki isn't one of the most dangerous generals you could possibly face in the forest.
    Indeed, but I was just debating his view at what happened at KP. It doesn't directly affect this battle's outcome, but it seems he has impression that Keisha needs a massive advantage here again to just stalemate Duke.


    The Glorious Fellowship of the Round Jacuzzi:

  11. #31
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,245
    @Great Potato;

    Kanki is a runner up for a GG position. The Duke was stated on panel to have been 6G level many years before the story takes place. Not only that, he was acknowledged by Riboku(the same one who praised Keisha as a strong instinctual general) as the epitome of the instinctual type. Keisha just can't hope to win here.

  12. #32
    Crispinianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    39,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Just how do you see Keisha winning without an overwhelming number advantage? He couldn't even deal with Kanki and died a fool's death. Not even remotely impressed by Keisha.

    The Duke always lost some soldiers in the beginning of a war, but would prevail every time. That's his style of warfare and he's always worked like that, so losing some soldiers before Shin stepped in at KP does not speak against the Duke.
    Duke won against people undeniably better than Keisha, true. Just thinking of Gokei and Riboku is enough to put him in their tier of caliber. But even so, he fall in Keisha's trap with all the shoes, and he was this close from losing his own life and the battle altogether on day one. Why? You think it's because of the numerical disadvantage? That's not it.

    In battles where Duke is involved, numbers tend to lose significance. In the final showdown vs Gokei, he was outnumbered 1/10 and still won, so the 1/4 he had against Keisha is hardly meaningful. He could start a war with x10 the size of your army, throwing the 99% of them to a pointless death, and when he's left with a fist of fleas, he can come and take your head. It's not about numbers, it's whether he can or not start a fire, it's about striking strategical generals with a type of warfare they can't accept nor understand.

    Here's how Keisha could defeat him. Keisha knows how Duke Hyou operates, and he can make entire plots exploiting this fatal and inevitable disadvantage. Having Duke dancing to your tune is something nobody else in the world could accomplish, literally nobody. Maybe Renpa, but I wouldn't even be so sure. Keisha is Duke Hyou's bane, may he be on numerical parity or not.


  13. #33
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,245
    @Crispinianus;

    GP already told you, the reason why Keisha could do that at KP is because he had other generals at his disposal. It's not like a small fry destroyed the Duke's back and he was saved by someone like Moubu. It's the opposite. A general hit the Duke's back and he was saved by a small fry at the time(Shin). Mangoku is not present in this matchup.

  14. #34
    say-and-sing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    here tokay
    Posts
    3,011
    I see The Duke taking heavy losses at first and getting his hands burned throwing his troops aggressivly forward which plays too well into Keisha's traps.

    Yet as soon as The Duke decides to have most of his troops hunker down and lead attacks by himself, The Duke's power and rallying should chip away fast at Keisha's troops. Keisha ensnaring The Duke himself here seems rather out of the question, and Keisha evading him and snacking at another part of The Duke's army should not be nearly as effective.

    The biggest question being whether The Duke's instinct tells him to take it back a notch to make Keisha flip


  15. #35
    Crispinianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    39,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    @Crispinianus;

    GP already told you, the reason why Keisha could do that at KP is because he had other generals at his disposal. It's not like a small fry destroyed the Duke's back and he was saved by someone like Moubu. It's the opposite. A general hit the Duke's back and he was saved by a small fry at the time(Shin). Mangoku is not present in this matchup.
    This is the classing gp critique he always pulls to make the sphere of strategists miserable.

    Keisha made that plan because he could count on Mangoku. Had he not been there, he would have devised another plan, less or more effective, but another plan. It's not like it's the only strategy he can do, jesus. He's a tactician. It's his job to make the best possible of what he has at his disposal, may it be men, generals or knowledge.

    Keisha could only hurt Duke because he had Mangoku? Arguable. Duke Hyou just came out of it alive because of Shin? Absolutely true. But again, that's not the point. The key to read that battle isn't the single episodes, it's Keisha knowing how Duke Hyou operates, how instinct works and how his mind sees and processes the battlefield. This is why Keisha put him in danger. Not because of Mangoku.


  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    @Great Potato;

    Kanki is a runner up for a GG position. The Duke was stated on panel to have been 6G level many years before the story takes place. Not only that, he was acknowledged by Riboku(the same one who praised Keisha as a strong instinctual general) as the epitome of the instinctual type. Keisha just can't hope to win here.
    Kanki was also stated on panel to be 6GG level, was compared to Riboku more than once throughout his latest arc, and happens to operate best in the forest. "He couldn't even deal with Kanki" makes it sound like Kanki is some pushover and it's a strike against Keisha for losing to him, when he's arguably the most dangerous Qin general to face in a forested terrain.

  17. #37
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,245
    @Crispinianus;

    If Keisha had the Duke at his mercy, why is it that the Duke took 3000 soldiers and killed 10000 of Keisha's? A fire didn't get started yet, sure, but that can only be a point for the Duke. Just how much more damage would he cause otherwise?

    @Great Potato;

    He was stated to have the potential to reach that level, not that he was there just yet. The Duke, on the other hand, was 6GG level already back in their days. Don't forget how important time is for growth, just remember what they said about Ousen when they were departing for the most recent war. This arc Kanki is clearly stronger than he was when facing Keisha, he has grown after all. I didn't mean it in such a harsh way, but I can not agree with you that the Kanki from that arc would be better than the Duke, no matter the terrain. And if Keisha could not deal with Kanki, what hope does he have against the Duke?

  18. #38
    Crispinianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    39,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    @Crispinianus;

    If Keisha had the Duke at his mercy, why is it that the Duke took 3000 soldiers and killed 10000 of Keisha's? A fire didn't get started yet, sure, but that can only be a point for the Duke. Just how much more damage would he cause otherwise?
    I remember something like both losing 10k men in that battle, but I might be wrong.

    Then again, it's not about the damage. If Keisha planned to trade 10k or more men for the sake of getting his trap to work, it's on his strategy skill. If you recall, he explicitly told Rihaku to not adopt a defensive stance, so he clearly didn't expect to take Duke Hyou's head and getting away with it unscathed.


  19. #39
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    5,245
    @Crispinianus;

    Doesn't even mention the Duke lost his 3k.



    The Duke is the one who usually takes losses in order to start a fire. Getting smashed so hard vs the Duke before he even starts a fire is a one way trip to hell.
    Last edited by Zentos; 02-27-2017 at 09:28 PM. Reason: Why does the spoiler tag not work? Worked fine yesterday.

  20. #40
    Crispinianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    39,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    @Crispinianus;

    Doesn't even mention the Duke lost his 3k.



    The Duke is the one to take losses in order to start a fire. Getting smashed so hard vs the Duke before he even starts a fire is a one way trip to hell.
    This is not the battle we've been talking about. Or at least I've been talking about.

    The first day was the only time Keisha had his hands free, before the order to slow down coming from Karin's suggestion. Not to mention the only actual all-out clash they've had. I don't think it makes sense to extend the analysis to the entire war, also because it's left unconcluded as Duke Hyou at some point takes his leave.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •