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  1. #41
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Crispinianus;

    The Duke himself was going deep into Keisha's army and he did not manage to fabricate a trap for him. He wasn't even being sneaky, he charged in multiple times.

    And if you wanna talk about the first day, it's true that both sides lost 10k. But that was because the Duke fell into a trap in a scenario where he was already outnumbered 1:3. So a draw is the best Keisha can get out of catching the Duke in a trap. That speaks for itself, really.

  2. #42
    say-and-sing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    I remember something like both losing 10k men in that battle, but I might be wrong.
    Ch. 289, The Duke reports how the battlefield has gone from 120.000 vs. 40.000 to 110.000 to 30.000. Though Zhao apparently has not lost 10.000 men, they also take into account Mangoku's loss, which weighs in heavily. Also HSU lost 300.


  3. #43
    Cheif of Wisdom Amol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    first day Keisha had Duke Hyou on the ropes and was destroying his rear until Shin's miracle rally. From then it was Karin's idea of attrition warfare that neither made any decisive moves
    Duke always loses men on first day.
    Killing Dukes men isn't very impressive feat. Like it has been said in this itself Duke killed more men of Keisha than other way around.
    So despite having 3:1 soldier advantage, multiple Generals under his command and having Duke surrounded by all sides Keisha not only lost failed to take Duke's head but also lost lot more men than Duke.
    That is taking into consideration that instead of defending which Duke should have been doing, he was the one doing most of the attacking.
    That is stalemate the way I see.
    I mean reverse the advantage here. With thrice more men than Keisha, Duke would have not only take Keisha's head but also would have decimated entire Keisha army in day 1 itself.
    Speaks volume of the difference of quality in between two Generals.

  4. #44
    well.. even if the trap used Mangoku, Mangoku isn't really like Moubu lol. It's just his unit is really tenacious and abnormally strong vs Qin soldiers.

    I believe using Keisha's own elite to attack the rear would achieve the same effect because Keisha trap the most vulnerable of Duke's troops instead of using straight brute force. Without Shin helping in the back, Duke wouldn't be able to react fast enough and will have at lot of his elites in the rear getting snacked.

    IMO, martial generals like Duke and Moubu would have easier time controling small amount of troops. and the 3:1 comparison won't really do much effect on a concentrated charge like what Duke is doing other than surrounding them.

    On the other hand a bigger number will make Duke lost more troops since he can't personally lead all the battle field. It will be like Dakan Plains where Duke needs to send his troops forwards and there's where Keisha can actually work better than Duke since Keisha's style is very advantageous to Duke.

    esentially the first scenario will be Duke who has no firestarter and need to do something to start a fire (Like in Dakan Plains) vs Keisha who has advantage in style, battlefield and is actually able to read and extenguish Duke's fire
    Last edited by gn_x00; 02-28-2017 at 02:50 AM.

  5. #45
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @gn_x00;

    Have you completely missed my last post? Keisha had every possible advantage and still only got a draw the first day. If it was the other way around and the Duke got Keisha into a trap, Keisha would 100% die.

    Later on, the Duke was decimating Keisha's army and there was nothing Keisha could do. He couldn't even create another trap for the Duke who was blindly charging in and killing Keisha's soldiers.

    The difference in quality is enormous and cannot be overcome. In a scenario where both sides start equally the Duke takes the win 11/10 times. 11 for that one time where the Duke takes a 0 casualty win.

  6. #46
    I think a good could thread could be the exact same circumstances as in the CW, only with the additive that there wont be any nutrition warfare from Zhao, Duke won't leave for Sai and they wont get help from Tou/Heki/Ouhon.

    The war keeps going until someone clearly wins and loses.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    I think a good could thread could be the exact same circumstances as in the CW, only with the additive that there wont be any nutrition warfare from Zhao, Duke won't leave for Sai and they wont get help from Tou/Heki/Ouhon.

    The war keeps going until someone clearly wins and loses.
    Nutrition warfare? Is that where one fights a battle with health food?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Nutrition warfare? Is that where one fights a battle with health food?
    ooops

    Crispi moment

  9. #49
    Crispinianus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanki View Post
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    ooops

    Crispi moment
    hmph


  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Have you completely missed my last post? Keisha had every possible advantage and still only got a draw the first day. If it was the other way around and the Duke got Keisha into a trap, Keisha would 100% die.
    every possible advantage? Duke got the territory advantage with the field being a plain area. Plain is a very advantageous area for generals who use brute force. It's a totally different scenario in another area like a dense forest of Kokuyou. Martial might alone can be diminished quite greatly especially when Duke side also has no other generals which he can count on for other fronts.

    and Duke would have been crushed within half a day if Shin didn't save his army

    Duke would never got Keisha into a trap. It's totally not his style even though they're both instinctual commander.

    Later on, the Duke was decimating Keisha's army and there was nothing Keisha could do. He couldn't even create another trap for the Duke who was blindly charging in and killing Keisha's soldiers.
    Riboku and Karin told the whole army to do nothing significant and wait with normal skirmish for days

    The difference in quality is enormous and cannot be overcome. In a scenario where both sides start equally the Duke takes the win 11/10 times. 11 for that one time where the Duke takes a 0 casualty win.
    you should leave something ridiculous like this if you want people to take you seriously really.. 0 casualty win is not possible at all except if you have an army of Moubus

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Just how do you see Keisha winning without an overwhelming number advantage? He couldn't even deal with Kanki and died a fool's death. Not even remotely impressed by Keisha.
    Kanki's modus operandi is suitable to defeat keisha, the same way Keisha's is suitable to defeat Duke, especially in an advantageous territory.

    The Duke always lost some soldiers in the beginning of a war, but would prevail every time. That's his style of warfare and he's always worked like that, so losing some soldiers before Shin stepped in at KP does not speak against the Duke.
    oh lol...
    Duke losing soldiers only comes when he's directing troops to lure the enemy. He's pretty much losing most engagement other than the one he personally supervise. I don't remember seeing Duke turning around a situation alone when he's leading a charge and getting trapped in that situation.

    In Dakan Plains he got Heki (and Ouki) to help him, vs GHM, he's retreating because he sense it's a trap, vs Keisha he got Shin saving him, vs Riboku's trap (Houken), he got killed

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