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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    am i to blame or nay?



    Maybe after April
    but of course child

    maybe?

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  2. #42
    @gn_x00; @Nordlending; @felixng2015; @Jjcb; @Aliasniamor; what do you guys think of a top/high/mid tier heavy game and the idea of dupes?

    In regards to Nord's martial GG issue, we could run dupes so if someone gets Moubu/Kanmei/Houken/Ouki/Renpa/Gaimou, the ones without won't be fucked as there are dupes of those characters. Of course, we'd have to put heavy restrictions, like you can't have two Oukis or two Moubus on one team and not everyone I listed will have a dupe (Ouki and Renpa are gamebreaking already so they likely won't have dupes).

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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    @gn_x00; @Nordlending; @felixng2015; @Jjcb; @Aliasniamor; what do you guys think of a top/high/mid tier heavy game and the idea of dupes?

    In regards to Nord's martial GG issue, we could run dupes so if someone gets Moubu/Kanmei/Houken/Ouki/Renpa/Gaimou, the ones without won't be fucked as there are dupes of those characters. Of course, we'd have to put heavy restrictions, like you can't have two Oukis or two Moubus on one team and not everyone I listed will have a dupe (Ouki and Renpa are gamebreaking already so they likely won't have dupes).
    I hate the idea of dupes tbh.

    I don't think Ouki/Renpa are game breaking either tbh. Lots of teams do fine without them.

    Dupes will just make brute force types more utilized while other generals get overlooked and underutilized.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by felixng2015 View Post
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    I hate the idea of dupes tbh.

    I don't think Ouki/Renpa are game breaking either tbh. Lots of teams do fine without them.

    Dupes will just make brute force types more utilized while other generals get overlooked and underutilized.
    how do you suppose we combat the issue of martial guys getting way too much leeway? My prep idea was designed so strategists could at least have a chance with terrain but that would depend on the map. And even prep defenses are mowed down by one guy

    Only because they got better brutes ie me and gn. People like Jjcb and Nord, although they assembled some good GG level officers, would lose because they got no one who can both outsmart and kill those guys.

    It's pretty much turned into a game of "secure best brutes to win" regardless of dupes, maybe dupes of Rinko or Ranbihaku would be better?

    Maybe I should host a minigame where no brute over 95 strength is allowed and Ouki/Renpa/Tou are restricted from using brute force to win.

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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    how do you suppose we combat the issue of martial guys getting way too much leeway? My prep idea was designed so strategists could at least have a chance with terrain but that would depend on the map. And even prep defenses are mowed down by one guy

    Only because they got better brutes ie me and gn. People like Jjcb and Nord, although they assembled some good GG level officers, would lose because they got no one who can both outsmart and kill those guys.

    It's pretty much turned into a game of "secure best brutes to win" regardless of dupes, maybe dupes of Rinko or Ranbihaku would be better?

    Maybe I should host a minigame where no brute over 95 strength is allowed and Ouki/Renpa/Tou are restricted from using brute force to win.
    Its actually quite tough since Kingdom verse itself has made brutes have better than portrayal than strategists for the most part. Even Riboku doesn't have great feats without the help of brutes.
    Strategists are more versatile though, brutes are not as useful for defense and can struggle in certain terrain.

    I still think there should be scenarios where one side is on defense and their victory condition is just to hold out for x amount of time and the offensive side gets more troops to compensate for this.

    More scenarios would be good instead of just a straightforward battle with equal troops, scenario would be randomized.

    Also I would price elites cheaper 1k for 1 point since I feel like people don't really buy them at their current price and they haven't been utilized enough even though I feel like they can be a difference maker and be useful as muscle even.

    The thing is in most wars one side is actually on offensive while the other side is defending. When both sides are attacking brutes actually get the advantage since they are more suited towards attacking and are less well rounded compared to strategists.

  6. #46
    The Dragon of Katsurahama Nordlending's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    how do you suppose we combat the issue of martial guys getting way too much leeway? My prep idea was designed so strategists could at least have a chance with terrain but that would depend on the map. And even prep defenses are mowed down by one guy

    Only because they got better brutes ie me and gn. People like Jjcb and Nord, although they assembled some good GG level officers, would lose because they got no one who can both outsmart and kill those guys.

    It's pretty much turned into a game of "secure best brutes to win" regardless of dupes, maybe dupes of Rinko or Ranbihaku would be better?

    Maybe I should host a minigame where no brute over 95 strength is allowed and Ouki/Renpa/Tou are restricted from using brute force to win.
    I think the mindset is the problem. Everyone assumes that if there is a brute force guy he will always end up fighting the enemy general in face to face combat. There is no strategist that can route him, or stop him, or control the battlefield in way so they won't meet them face to face.

    Moubo would never have fought Kanmei if he didn't use a strategy that would make it
    possible for him to do so. Duke Hyou wound't have been able to duke it out with Gohoumei if he didn't take on hill there, sacrificed some men there, and having Ouki being a tourist over there.


    The real world is cold! The real world doesn't care about spirit! You want to be a hero? Then play the part and die like every other Huntsman in history! As for me, I'll do what I do best: lie, steal, cheat and survive!

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by felixng2015 View Post
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    Its actually quite tough since Kingdom verse itself has made brutes have better than portrayal than strategists for the most part. Even Riboku doesn't have great feats without the help of brutes.
    Strategists are more versatile though, brutes are not as useful for defense and can struggle in certain terrain.

    I still think there should be scenarios where one side is on defense and their victory condition is just to hold out for x amount of time and the offensive side gets more troops to compensate for this.

    More scenarios would be good instead of just a straightforward battle with equal troops, scenario would be randomized.

    Also I would price elites cheaper 1k for 1 point since I feel like people don't really buy them at their current price and they haven't been utilized enough even though I feel like they can be a difference maker and be useful as muscle even.

    The thing is in most wars one side is actually on offensive while the other side is defending. When both sides are attacking brutes actually get the advantage since they are more suited towards attacking and are less well rounded compared to strategists.
    so basically, change maps for more defensive terrain instead of equal terrain and mark an offender/defender. that'll be tedious as we'll have to crank out new maps but I'll see what I can do.

    Well, elites were kinda meant to be bought if you had extra points leftover, since there's no bonus bid and sitting was discouraged. I don't think price was a problem but perhaps we should have more options available for those with leftover points, like generic special troops or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    I think the mindset is the problem. Everyone assumes that if there is a brute force guy he will always end up fighting the enemy general in face to face combat. There is no strategist that can route him, or stop him, or control the battlefield in way so they won't meet them face to face.

    Moubo would never have fought Kanmei if he didn't use a strategy that would make it
    possible for him to do so. Duke Hyou wound't have been able to duke it out with Gohoumei if he didn't take on hill there, sacrificed some men there, and having Ouki being a tourist over there.
    True, as tbh, I picked up Moubu because people like GP think he's invincible no matter the circumstance. I just have to stack his army and it's good to go.

    True but this game allows us as the player to provide the strategy for brutes to perform, pretty much bypassing a SHK or Riboku and just relegating them to be guys that provide support or supplementary instruction if needed. That gives brutes better usage than guys that are strategists, since they're harder to use.

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  8. #48
    Banned Crispickle's Avatar
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    no duperini

  9. #49
    your opinion doesn't count since you're not playing

    - - - Updated - - -

    anyways, who's up for that brutes restricted minigame?

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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    so basically, change maps for more defensive terrain instead of equal terrain and mark an offender/defender. that'll be tedious as we'll have to crank out new maps but I'll see what I can do.

    Well, elites were kinda meant to be bought if you had extra points leftover, since there's no bonus bid and sitting was discouraged. I don't think price was a problem but perhaps we should have more options available for those with leftover points, like generic special troops or something.

    True, as tbh, I picked up Moubu because people like GP think he's invincible no matter the circumstance. I just have to stack his army and it's good to go.

    True but this game allows us as the player to provide the strategy for brutes to perform, pretty much bypassing a SHK or Riboku and just relegating them to be guys that provide support or supplementary instruction if needed. That gives brutes better usage than guys that are strategists, since they're harder to use.
    You don't necessarily have to change the maps maybe make a few more that are more defensive oriented but a lot of maps already have easily defensible areas. Also not every match has to be this format just mix it up. And if its a defensive match you can use your home map I guess, if its a neutral scenario it should just be random.

    Randomize scenarios:

    1) Neutral (what we have now)
    2) Defensive/Offensive
    3) Possibly more types?

    As for elites:

    1k for 1 point for any elite we have now. Stronger than generic elites, may have special abilities but may not work as well with other generals. Morale bonus under their own general.
    1k for 1 point "generic elites", above average strength, can work with any general but weaker than special elites and neutral morale.

    Generic elites would basically be decent for guys who have no elites of their own and as filler points if you have leftover points.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    @gn_x00; @Nordlending; @felixng2015; @Jjcb; @Aliasniamor; what do you guys think of a top/high/mid tier heavy game and the idea of dupes?
    not sure what top/high/mid tier heavy game means

    no dupe please. that will make those character's useless in auction since you'll get a copy of them anyway. some restriction will obviously be in place, but i kinda don't like it

    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    how do you suppose we combat the issue of martial guys getting way too much leeway? My prep idea was designed so strategists could at least have a chance with terrain but that would depend on the map. And even prep defenses are mowed down by one guy
    what about stat equalizing instead?

    Like.. for the sake of Cyk, put a restriction for str to be capped at 96. So Moubu -> 96 str, Gaimou -> 96 str whle Tou will still be 96 like his normal stats.
    with how much 96 str general (if we apply this), then it will be quite balanced imo. although that means people like Tou will be higher valued than Moubu/Gaimou since Tou will have more knowledge and leadership

    ofc you can change the cap to 95 if it's better. but i don't remember that many people at 95 anyway

    but this game is based on opinion... so i'm not sure if it will work or not.
    ah.. maybe keep Houken str above the rest since he'll be useless otherway. maybe at 98 or so

    Maybe I should host a minigame where no brute over 95 strength is allowed and Ouki/Renpa/Tou are restricted from using brute force to win.


    we can always test it, but make sure you see who's in the full rooster so people can see it easier

    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    anyways, who's up for that brutes restricted minigame?
    i'm up to for now.
    as long as the bid (if with auction) will end with silent

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by felixng2015 View Post
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    You don't necessarily have to change the maps maybe make a few more that are more defensive oriented but a lot of maps already have easily defensible areas. Also not every match has to be this format just mix it up. And if its a defensive match you can use your home map I guess, if its a neutral scenario it should just be random.

    Randomize scenarios:

    1) Neutral (what we have now)
    2) Defensive/Offensive
    3) Possibly more types?
    i kinda agree with this. maps already have plenty of options for defensive areas. Just need to switch deployment area so that the defending can actually do it better.

    Example would be the two mountain map used in last game (Nord's home map).
    you can make the 2 mountain the deployment point instead of the blue/red area right now. Defending side would have a big advantage since he got mountain area while the attacker need to go down and attack it

    as for who get attacking and who get defending, how about adding 3 or 5 highest str of the team and let the team with lower total decide?
    Last edited by gn_x00; 02-23-2017 at 11:30 PM.

  12. #52
    Just randomize who attacks and who defends, thats pretty easy tbh. I don't like intentionally gimping certain characters tbh so equalizing would be meh.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    not sure what top/high/mid tier heavy game means

    no dupe please. that will make those character's useless in auction since you'll get a copy of them anyway. some restriction will obviously be in place, but i kinda don't like it
    basically sweep away characters that don't matter

    it'll be more useful, since the the price of brutes will go down and you can grab more


    what about stat equalizing instead?

    Like.. for the sake of Cyk, put a restriction for str to be capped at 96. So Moubu -> 96 str, Gaimou -> 96 str whle Tou will still be 96 like his normal stats.
    with how much 96 str general (if we apply this), then it will be quite balanced imo. although that means people like Tou will be higher valued than Moubu/Gaimou since Tou will have more knowledge and leadership

    ofc you can change the cap to 95 if it's better. but i don't remember that many people at 95 anyway

    but this game is based on opinion... so i'm not sure if it will work or not.
    ah.. maybe keep Houken str above the rest since he'll be useless otherway. maybe at 98 or so
    I don't like it, it'll create too many problems and coexisting mindsets will be thoroughly confused.




    we can always test it, but make sure you see who's in the full rooster so people can see it easier


    i'm up to for now.
    as long as the bid (if with auction) will end with silent
    Indeed, I just need three more players then we'll talk roster

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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    @gn_x00; @Nordlending; @felixng2015; @Jjcb; @Aliasniamor; what do you guys think of a top/high/mid tier heavy game and the idea of dupes?
    I'd actually be more interested in how a mid/low tier tournament would play out. Take out guys like Ouki, Renpa, Moubu, Tou, Gohoumei, Karin, and Ousen and instead have guys like Mougou, Choutou, Rinko, Rihaku, and Heki. With smaller scale commanders the battle will be a lot more about strategy than it would the quality of generals on each team. You'd still have room for brutes like Shoumou or Kaishibou to tear a path through and put in work for the team, but they would have to be played a lot more carefully since they don't stand at that level where they can just crush elaborate defensive formations with raw fighting power and offensive might.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordlending View Post
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    I think the mindset is the problem. Everyone assumes that if there is a brute force guy he will always end up fighting the enemy general in face to face combat. There is no strategist that can route him, or stop him, or control the battlefield in way so they won't meet them face to face.
    No, I think most people just don't play it right to avoid having their general in the crossfire of a stronger brute. A strategist who is mounted in position is going to be vulnerable to getting killed by a martial type once their troops get overwhelmed. A lot of people give their martial fighters the clause to actively seek out and attack other generals from the opponent army, which is obviously going to result in a duel if both sides are after the same thing or one side doesn't do anything to avoid it.

    Don't forget you won your match against felix because people felt that Duke Hyou wouldn't be able to push in far enough to breach the defenses you had Gokei setting up and that I thought your Gekishin could avoid the glaive of his Ouki. Both of the matches with felix my reasoning included that I thought Duke Hyou would be picked apart before being able to reach his opponent for combat, and Duke Hyou I rank only below Moubu and Kanmei in terms of destructive charges.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    basically sweep away characters that don't matter
    so we'll only use characters in middle tier or so? no superhuman great generals like Ouki and the likes?

    Interesting

  16. #56
    A tier only tourney would be interesting yes.

    Mid tier only or mid-high tourney next.
    Last edited by felixng2015; 02-24-2017 at 12:51 AM.

  17. #57
    mid tier tournament huh? interesting, lemme get some ideas set up first though

    players will start with 150k troops each, units of unit commanders and character exclusive elites will add to that amount
    generic elites/siege weapons will be buyable for everyone (these elites will replace your regular troops): fast cavalry, chariots, ballistas, siege towers

    speed chart, if regular (light) cavalry can cover one unit of distance at a certain amount of time:
    poison dogs/Riboku cavalry-3x
    fast generic elite cavalry-2x
    regular cavalry/Wei chariots-1x
    heavy cavalry/generic elite chariots-.75x
    infantry/elephants-.5x
    heavy infantry-.25x

    state exclusives, you choose your state before the auction starts:

    Qin bonus: Peasant militia draft- allows you to bolster your army with free peasant militia (they're weaker than regular soldiers though and cannot be mounted) with up to 50k of them or until you reach 200k men, whichever one comes first
    Ryofui's haggling- get 20% of what you spend on each character back
    Wei: Mighty chariots- able to buy elite Wei chariots regardless if you have a general that has buyable chariot units
    Siege specialist- able to get siege weaponry for free, with limits
    Zhao bonus: ATV- all cavalry is automatically updated to being able to traverse any rough terrain (hills, cliffs, forest, etc) faster
    Prep expert- all prep clauses will have soldiers work at double the pace without added fatigue (like for fortifications, setting traps, training etc.)
    Chu bonus: Southern supremacy- heavy cavalry and heavy infantry move at the same speed as their regular counterparts
    Biggest army in China- starts every battle with 25% more regular troops i.e. elites not counted nor eligible
    Yan bonus: Mercenary state- elites cost 50% less
    Big budget- your budget at the start of auction is 20% higher than the regular amount
    Qi bonus: Stalling- you get an extra 3 days of prep per match for free
    North-South past- initial deployment area size is doubled


    Willing to take ideas and constructive criticism for this

    couldn't come up with anything for Han

    if we're doing a mid tiers game, then it'll be 40 characters for 4 people:


    8.Ordo: 10k mountain climbers
    10.Seikai: 1000 poison corps, poison gas (2 pts for one ballista)
    16.Mangoku 5k zombies (if facing an army led by a former Qin general they are extra tenacious, otherwise average)
    17.Kaishibou:
    19.Shunmen: 5k mountain men
    20.Genbou: 500 Wei war chariots
    21.Kyouen:
    22.Kyuugen: 500 Wei war chariots
    23.Rinko:
    24.Keisha:
    25.Ryuukoku:
    26.Zenou: 5k berserk troops
    27.Bajio: 5k mountain men
    29.Kisui 5k Rigan troops
    30.Rokuomi:
    31.Fuuki:
    32.Raido: 5k bandits
    33.Shin: 5k of the HSU
    34.Mouten: 5k of his unit
    35.Kaine: 5k special Zhao cavalry
    36.Ouhon: 5k of his unit
    37.Maron: 5k bandits
    38.Kokuou: 5k bandits
    39.Kouyoku: 5k of his unit
    40.Hakurei: 5k of his unit
    41.Kyoukai: 3k of the HSU, has PD but return dance restricted.
    48.Shoumou
    49.Rinbukun
    53.Kanou
    56.Ranbihaku
    58.Ryuutou
    59.Rihaku
    61.Batei
    62.Chousou
    63.Heki
    64.Choutou
    72.Kousonryuu
    75.Junsou
    76.Kaioku
    78.Mougou


    budget for this game will be 200 points.

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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    Qin bonus: Peasant militia draft- allows you to bolster your army with free peasant militia (they're weaker than regular soldiers though and cannot be mounted) with up to 50k of them or until you reach 200k men, whichever one comes first
    Ryofui's haggling- get 20% of what you spend on each character back

    Wei: Mighty chariots- able to buy elite Wei chariots regardless if you have a general that has buyable chariot units
    Siege specialist- able to get siege weaponry for free, with limits

    Zhao bonus: ATV- all cavalry is automatically updated to being able to traverse any rough terrain (hills, cliffs, forest, etc) faster
    Prep expert- all prep clauses will have soldiers work at double the pace without added fatigue (like for fortifications, setting traps, training etc.)

    Chu bonus: Southern supremacy- heavy cavalry and heavy infantry move at the same speed as their regular counterparts
    Biggest army in China- starts every battle with 25% more regular troops i.e. elites not counted nor eligible

    Yan bonus: Mercenary state- elites cost 50% less
    Big budget- your budget at the start of auction is 20% higher than the regular amount

    Qi bonus: Stalling- you get an extra 3 days of prep per match for free
    North-South past- initial deployment area size is doubled


    Willing to take ideas and constructive criticism for this
    uh... not sure what to comment about them..
    aside from the direct ones (budget, more troops etc), I wonder if it will be too complicated (speed modifier, peasant army etc)?

    couldn't come up with anything for Han
    small state = you get 25% less troops, 25% less budget, generals will ask for 20% more points than the one you bid them for because they don't want to be in your state


    if we're doing a mid tiers game, then it'll be 40 characters for 4 people:

    8.Ordo: 10k mountain climbers
    10.Seikai: 1000 poison corps, poison gas (2 pts for one ballista)
    16.Mangoku 5k zombies (if facing an army led by a former Qin general they are extra tenacious, otherwise average)
    17.Kaishibou:
    19.Shunmen: 5k mountain men
    20.Genbou: 500 Wei war chariots
    21.Kyouen:
    22.Kyuugen: 500 Wei war chariots
    23.Rinko:
    24.Keisha:
    25.Ryuukoku:
    26.Zenou: 5k berserk troops
    27.Bajio: 5k mountain men
    29.Kisui 5k Rigan troops
    30.Rokuomi:
    31.Fuuki:
    32.Raido: 5k bandits
    33.Shin: 5k of the HSU
    34.Mouten: 5k of his unit
    35.Kaine: 5k special Zhao cavalry
    36.Ouhon: 5k of his unit
    37.Maron: 5k bandits
    38.Kokuou: 5k bandits
    39.Kouyoku: 5k of his unit
    40.Hakurei: 5k of his unit
    41.Kyoukai: 3k of the HSU, has PD but return dance restricted.
    48.Shoumou
    49.Rinbukun
    53.Kanou
    56.Ranbihaku
    58.Ryuutou
    59.Rihaku
    61.Batei
    62.Chousou
    63.Heki
    64.Choutou
    72.Kousonryuu
    75.Junsou
    76.Kaioku
    78.Mougou
    1. so unit commanders come with their units like in normal game? <-- probably shouldn't imo. just make them buyable like elites
    2. just make Mangoku's unit extra tenacious to everyone imo.
    3. uh... rather iffy about Ordo since he seems to be very good compared to the other line up, but i guess it's not unbalanced... Seikai's poison though...

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    uh... not sure what to comment about them..
    aside from the direct ones (budget, more troops etc), I wonder if it will be too complicated (speed modifier, peasant army etc)?


    small state = you get 25% less troops, 25% less budget, generals will ask for 20% more points than the one you bid them for because they don't want to be in your state



    1. so unit commanders come with their units like in normal game? <-- probably shouldn't imo. just make them buyable like elites
    2. just make Mangoku's unit extra tenacious to everyone imo.
    3. uh... rather iffy about Ordo since he seems to be very good compared to the other line up, but i guess it's not unbalanced... Seikai's poison though...




    1. yes. I dunno if there will be a good amount of points left after but since this is a mid tier game, people might have 100+ points left because they low balled everyone
    2. will do
    3. he pretty much as largely unproven brute strength (mid tier) and excellence in mountainous areas, not too good for the overall game. Nobody really cared that I tried to use poison last game, so maybe we'll see good usage this time yeah?

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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    1. yes. I dunno if there will be a good amount of points left after but since this is a mid tier game, people might have 100+ points left because they low balled everyone
    well.. we don't know if people will try to get them for 50+ or not lol...

    but Shin, Ouhon, Kyoukai and most unit commanders are already very good without their unit because there's no competition from the top guys. This is Shin and Ouhon who had clashed and killed few top tier guys lol

    3. he pretty much as largely unproven brute strength (mid tier) and excellence in mountainous areas, not too good for the overall game. Nobody really cared that I tried to use poison last game, so maybe we'll see good usage this time yeah?
    yeah.. the thing about poison is that people might or might not care about them lol... if people care about it, then it has potential to be unbalanced due to no top tiers

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