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  1. #21
    ReXDrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    How was it designed to specifically counter G4 :/?? Luffy suffered from PIS more so than Cracker. Why couldn't he just fly around the soldiers and take out the real Cracker? They are an omni-directional shield with perfect reflexes and synchronized movements? No, there was no reason and that is why Oda off-paneled it and gave us a convoluted break down of how the fight went down.

    If a Wall of Cracker clones can halt G4 then Mihawk would slice him out of the sky. What about Cracker's ability was designed to stall G4 Luffy? Such a strange argument I can't even start to think of how you came of it.
    Maybe because, as Z speculated ages ago, he (Luffy) would be met with a pretzel thrust or slash if he attempted to. Cracker was at the very least fast enough to force luffy to dodge one of his attacks without him being able to counterattack, and left the exchange without taking a single scratch, so its not as though he would have been easy pickings once/if hed been isolated from his biscuits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    He's a defensive wall. I don't see how his ability is any more a counter to Gear 4th than it would be to Drake, Hawkins, Kid, Killer, Sanji, Vista, or basically anyone else who would have to get through the biscuits in order to hit him. If anything I'd say Luffy was a poor matchup for Cracker because he's one of the very few people who could actually eat all of his biscuits to stop them from reforming.
    And he couldn't even do that without namis assistance.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ReXDrake View Post
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    Maybe because, as Z speculated ages ago, he (Luffy) would be met with a pretzel thrust or slash if he attempted to. Cracker was at the very least fast enough to force luffy to dodge one of his attacks without him being able to counterattack, and left the exchange without taking a single scratch, so its not as though he would have been easy pickings once/if hed been isolated from his biscuits

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    And he couldn't even do that without namis assistance.
    Unless you're way faster than G4 you cannot do that with impunity. Luffy is the one who dodged a Pretzel Thrust by tilting his head even in an awkward position while retracting his arm. Some attack is going through especially when G4 is so mobile and can come at so many angles and it shouldn't be a difficult feat in the slightest sense. Oda just decided to forgo that common sense rationale.

    Still, Nami helped so let us just focus on how odd Kong's argument is.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    Unless you're way faster than G4 you cannot do that with impunity. Luffy is the one who dodged a Pretzel Thrust by tilting his head even in an awkward position while retracting his arm. Some attack is going through especially when G4 is so mobile and can come at so many angles and it shouldn't be a difficult feat in the slightest sense. Oda just decided to forgo that common sense rationale.

    Still, Nami helped so let us just focus on how odd Kong's argument is.
    I don't see how that follows at all. Doflamingo landed an uncontested hit on g4 luffy despite not being on par with him in speed, and crackers feats are at least as impressive as his, so I have no problem with the idea that he was simply too strong for g4 to take down, albeit lacking the offensive to do the same to luffy

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ReXDrake View Post
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    I don't see how that follows at all. Doflamingo landed an uncontested hit on g4 luffy despite not being on par with him in speed, and crackers feats are at least as impressive as his, so I have no problem with the idea that he was simply too strong for g4 to take down, albeit lacking the offensive to do the same to luffy
    Uhhh....that reinforces my point. Even with a drastic speed difference a guy was able to find an opening and land a hit against his extremely fast opponent. So how could the faster fighter with greater mobility not find an opening against a mostly stationary opponent??? The keyword here was impunity.
    Last edited by Dayum; 02-15-2017 at 11:49 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    Uhhh....that reinforces my point. Even with a drastic speed difference a guy was able to find an opening and land a hit against his extremely fast opponent. So how could the faster fighter with greater mobility not find an opening against a mostly stationary opponent??? The keyword here was impunity.
    A few things. Firstly, luffy is likely stronger now than he was at the time he fought doflamingo, so that certainly factors in, and doflamingo hit luffy in a place hed have the greatest chance of connecting - his body. Cracker aimed for a much smaller target and only just missed him, and even then, it was only one attack.

    Impunity. In this context, I take it to mean being able to land an attack on luffy without being at risk of getting hit in return or in danger. It isn't really the most suitable word to use as its meaning doesnt apply here, but whatever. What does that have to do with anything?

  6. #26
    Why is it so hard to accept that Zoro's next powerup will be just as big of a boost as G2/G3 Luffy to G4 was?

    Zoro > G2/G3 Luffy
    G4(whatever its called) Zoro > G4 dressrosa Luffy

  7. #27
    Zoro will never be powerful as his captain Luffy so deal with it and stop comparing him to Luffy.

    *Quote of the year :
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    Akainu KOed Whitebeard
    More quotes ;
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    We've one injured Zoro and we've one injured Zoro who is carrying Usopp.
    Who wins in a race ?
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    Zoro
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    You are fucking insane dude. Chinjao gave g2 luffy mid diff, hed pulverize carrot
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    Zoro being stronger than Luffy what else makes the most sense to me right now.
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    Zoro > Luffy due to rubber being weak against swords

  8. #28
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HisMajestyMihawk View Post
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    Why is it so hard to accept that Zoro's next powerup will be just as big of a boost as G2/G3 Luffy to G4 was?

    Zoro > G2/G3 Luffy
    G4(whatever its called) Zoro > G4 dressrosa Luffy
    Because it will not happen.

    Zoro does not have a "mode". He has attacks. You are saying that Zoro will have something more powerful than G4 without the time limit.

    G4 is a standout among the supernova that gives Luffy an absurd boost at the price of becoming a target dummy after the time limit is over. There is no way that Oda is writing Zoro in a way that would make it possible for him to achieve that power without huge drawbacks.

    When G2/G3 was introduced to defeat Robb, Zoro said anyone else would die vs Robb.

    The same applies here. Whatever enemy requires Luffy to pull out G4(at this point in the story) is far too strong for any of the SHs to face, and that will not change until Luffy gains full control over G4(no drawbacks) or he gains something even more powerful than G4.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ReXDrake View Post
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    A few things. Firstly, luffy is likely stronger now than he was at the time he fought doflamingo, so that certainly factors in, and doflamingo hit luffy in a place hed have the greatest chance of connecting - his body. Cracker aimed for a much smaller target and only just missed him, and even then, it was only one attack.
    You're seriously splitting hairs. Yes a head is a smaller target than a body but Luffy was surprised and was in the middle or just got done retracting his arm. What does this have to do with my pain point? A slower guy hit a faster target because that will happen in a fight due to varying circumstances that occur in a prolonged fight. That is just how things work.

    Impunity. In this context, I take it to mean being able to land an attack on luffy without being at risk of getting hit in return or in danger. It isn't really the most suitable word to use as its meaning doesnt apply here, but whatever. What does that have to do with anything?
    That is so off the mark and idk how you could be. What I said was very simple. Luffy suffered from PIS just as much as Cracker as there is no valid reason he should not have been able to fly around the Dolls to go for the real Cracker. Yes Cracker would obviously counter with is own attack if Luffy got close. That is common sense. What is not common sense or even remotely feasible is that Cracker counters perfectly every single time Luffy assaults him and does so with perfect reflexes and speed.

    Cracker is not Netero. His defense, reflexes, dexterity, and speed cannot possibly be so incredible G4 attacking from multiple angles is rebuked every single time. Oda drew the fight off-panel because this Netero vs. Mereum style scenario would look absolutely ridiculous illustrated in OP. Please don't respond if you're going to miss my point again with some nonsense of how Cracker's defense is good and his dolls make him not like Netero. That would be missing the point so much again it hurts having the thought that that is exactly what you were thinking of responding with until you read these last two lines.

    At some point G4 will land something on Cracker when(not if) he got around the the dolls. Zero reason Luffy had to engage the dolls with Organ at all when he could have just flown around. Yes the real Cracker is gong to counter attack and the dolls will help block and assault Luffy, but Luffy will dodge and evade in midair and counter attack himself, followed by another Cracker response. That's called a battle. Very unlikely Luffy falls or is forced to retreat before he lands a single attack. We got the scenario we did not because it was the only logical practical route for Cracker to fall but because Oda had a particular ending in mind/scene he wanted to draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    Because it will not happen.

    Zoro does not have a "mode". He has attacks. You are saying that Zoro will have something more powerful than G4 without the time limit.

    G4 is a standout among the supernova that gives Luffy an absurd boost at the price of becoming a target dummy after the time limit is over. There is no way that Oda is writing Zoro in a way that would make it possible for him to achieve that power without huge drawbacks.

    When G2/G3 was introduced to defeat Robb, Zoro said anyone else would die vs Robb.

    The same applies here. Whatever enemy requires Luffy to pull out G4(at this point in the story) is far too strong for any of the SHs to face, and that will not change until Luffy gains full control over G4(no drawbacks) or he gains something even more powerful than G4.
    He said Zoro's power-up> Dressarosa G4 Luffy. You're argument only makes sense if you compared Zoro&Luffy from the same arc. From a literary standpoint obviously Luffy's equivalent power-up should eclipse Zoro's but that does not apply to what you quoted.
    Last edited by Dayum; 02-19-2017 at 03:54 PM.

  10. #30
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Dayum;

    Look at the end of my post.
    It will not change until Luffy becomes noticeably stronger. Doesn't matter if it's this arc or the next, until Luffy evolves a step further Zoro can not come close to G4 without drawbacks. As far as I see it, Luffy is only slightly stronger than he was vs Dofla, which is why it does not make sense for Zoro to match G4 just yet. Maybe in Wano, but not yet.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    @Dayum;

    Look at the end of my post.
    It will not change until Luffy becomes noticeably stronger. Doesn't matter if it's this arc or the next, until Luffy evolves a step further Zoro can not come close to G4 without drawbacks. As far as I see it, Luffy is only slightly stronger than he was vs Dofla, which is why it does not make sense for Zoro to match G4 just yet. Maybe in Wano, but not yet.
    That doesn't make sense. As long as Luffy is stronger than Zoro when Zoro shows his version of G4 it doesn't matter how a past version of Luffy compares to Wano Zoro.

    Huh? Who do you think we're talking about? There is no such thing as WCI Zoro as he is not around or even Post-DR/Zou Zoro because he has still yet to be pushed or show his limits. There is only Wano Zoro and Pre-Wano Zoro. We'll sadly never see what Asura pre-Wano could do because Wano Zoro will be a Zoro who trained and probably sparred with Samurai, possibly the Dukes and Law too, for a month or so. That Zoro will be keeping up with people physically more capable than base Doffy(King, Queen, The Shogun, other high ranking Samurai) another perfectly fine. Something Luffy won't do until after WCI.

  12. #32
    Mmmm. Beeeer. Zentos's Avatar
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    @Dayum;

    If Zoro is stronger than G4 it means he is stronger than it at all times.

    Wano Zoro can't be stronger than any version of G4, because Wano is next arc and Luffy will not grow to a point where he can beat someone who is G4 strong in his base.

    Unless Luffy pulls out another power up or he can maintain G4 for as long as he wants to, Zoro is not yet allowed to be at G4 level.

    Which brings us to another issue, and that is stupid power stacking that makes no sense.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentos View Post
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    @Dayum;

    If Zoro is stronger than G4 it means he is stronger than it at all times.

    Wano Zoro can't be stronger than any version of G4, because Wano is next arc and Luffy will not grow to a point where he can beat someone who is G4 strong in his base.

    Unless Luffy pulls out another power up or he can maintain G4 for as long as he wants to, Zoro is not yet allowed to be at G4 level.

    Which brings us to another issue, and that is stupid power stacking that makes no sense.
    No it doesn't. Asura is a stance that Zoro hasn't displayed for a reason and he has never shown to maintain. It is a temporary buffs allowing him to unleash insane combos with increased damage output.

    Wano Zoro at full power will shit all over DR G4. That is not even a question.

    Were confused by the phrase "keeping up"??? Keeping up just means he won't be getting embarrassed in a cqc battle with someone physically superior to Doffy come Wano like Law and Luffy were at DR. That is obvious unless you think Zoro will tag-team with someone else during his Wano battles. Another scenario is that Oda tricks us by having Wano having little to do with Kaidou's direct forces and makes the Shogun and his forces the main threat instead. Meaning Zoro's opponent could just be some high ranked Samurai under the Shogun who is only Doffy or Cracker level at best.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    Wano Zoro at full power will shit all over DR G4. That is not even a question.


    This isn't even remotely feasible.




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  15. #35
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    We probably won't see the 9 sword style ever again

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    You're seriously splitting hairs. Yes a head is a smaller target than a body but Luffy was surprised and was in the middle or just got done retracting his arm. What does this have to do with my pain point? A slower guy hit a faster target because that will happen in a fight due to varying circumstances that occur in a prolonged fight. That is just how things work.



    That is so off the mark and idk how you could be. What I said was very simple. Luffy suffered from PIS just as much as Cracker as there is no valid reason he should not have been able to fly around the Dolls to go for the real Cracker. Yes Cracker would obviously counter with is own attack if Luffy got close. That is common sense. What is not common sense or even remotely feasible is that Cracker counters perfectly every single time Luffy assaults him and does so with perfect reflexes and speed.

    Cracker is not Netero. His defense, reflexes, dexterity, and speed cannot possibly be so incredible G4 attacking from multiple angles is rebuked every single time. Oda drew the fight off-panel because this Netero vs. Mereum style scenario would look absolutely ridiculous illustrated in OP. Please don't respond if you're going to miss my point again with some nonsense of how Cracker's defense is good and his dolls make him not like Netero. That would be missing the point so much again it hurts having the thought that that is exactly what you were thinking of responding with until you read these last two lines.

    At some point G4 will land something on Cracker when(not if) he got around the the dolls. Zero reason Luffy had to engage the dolls with Organ at all when he could have just flown around. Yes the real Cracker is gong to counter attack and the dolls will help block and assault Luffy, but Luffy will dodge and evade in midair and counter attack himself, followed by another Cracker response. That's called a battle. Very unlikely Luffy falls or is forced to retreat before he lands a single attack. We got the scenario we did not because it was the only logical practical route for Cracker to fall but because Oda had a particular ending in mind/scene he wanted to draw.



    He said Zoro's power-up> Dressarosa G4 Luffy. You're argument only makes sense if you compared Zoro&Luffy from the same arc. From a literary standpoint obviously Luffy's equivalent power-up should eclipse Zoro's but that does not apply to what you quoted.
    Look, i know you don't think very highly of cracker, but have you considered the possibility that you've been grossly underestimating him this whole time. Cracker got right up in g4 luffys face and presumably didn't take a single hit. If we take that scene at face value, then it suggests cracker has the speed to consistently stay clear of him. Heck, for all we know, they could have fought at that range right up until g4 ran out at which point cracker fell back behind his soldiers again.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    No it doesn't. Asura is a stance that Zoro hasn't displayed for a reason and he has never shown to maintain. It is a temporary buffs allowing him to unleash insane combos with increased damage output.

    Wano Zoro at full power will shit all over DR G4. That is not even a question.

    Were confused by the phrase "keeping up"??? Keeping up just means he won't be getting embarrassed in a cqc battle with someone physically superior to Doffy come Wano like Law and Luffy were at DR. That is obvious unless you think Zoro will tag-team with someone else during his Wano battles. Another scenario is that Oda tricks us by having Wano having little to do with Kaidou's direct forces and makes the Shogun and his forces the main threat instead. Meaning Zoro's opponent could just be some high ranked Samurai under the Shogun who is only Doffy or Cracker level at best.

    So Zoro will be shitting at Doffy and KKG?What the fuck Dayum?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ReXDrake View Post
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    Heck, for all we know, they could have fought at that range right up until g4 ran out at which point cracker fell back behind his soldiers again.


    Why would he fall back behind his soldiers if he could tangle against G4 by himself.

    Not to mention that Luffy becomes completely defenseless when G4 is used up.




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  19. #39
    ReXDrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urek Mazino View Post
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    Why would he fall back behind his soldiers if he could tangle against G4 by himself.

    Not to mention that Luffy becomes completely defenseless when G4 is used up.
    because luffy kept fucking off until he had recuperated

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    That is so off the mark and idk how you could be. What I said was very simple. Luffy suffered from PIS just as much as Cracker as there is no valid reason he should not have been able to fly around the Dolls to go for the real Cracker. Yes Cracker would obviously counter with is own attack if Luffy got close. That is common sense. What is not common sense or even remotely feasible is that Cracker counters perfectly every single time Luffy assaults him and does so with perfect reflexes and speed.

    Cracker is not Netero. His defense, reflexes, dexterity, and speed cannot possibly be so incredible G4 attacking from multiple angles is rebuked every single time. Oda drew the fight off-panel because this Netero vs. Mereum style scenario would look absolutely ridiculous illustrated in OP. Please don't respond if you're going to miss my point again with some nonsense of how Cracker's defense is good and his dolls make him not like Netero. That would be missing the point so much again it hurts having the thought that that is exactly what you were thinking of responding with until you read these last two lines.

    At some point G4 will land something on Cracker when(not if) he got around the the dolls. Zero reason Luffy had to engage the dolls with Organ at all when he could have just flown around. Yes the real Cracker is gong to counter attack and the dolls will help block and assault Luffy, but Luffy will dodge and evade in midair and counter attack himself, followed by another Cracker response. That's called a battle. Very unlikely Luffy falls or is forced to retreat before he lands a single attack. We got the scenario we did not because it was the only logical practical route for Cracker to fall but because Oda had a particular ending in mind/scene he wanted to draw.
    It is absolutely feasible. Cracker had the numbers. Luffy had the strength. Their fight was nothing more than an endurance test as you could see when Cracker was sweating from fatigue and Luffy was obese from the constant snacking. It was at most a game of cat and mouse with a constant reversal of roles.

    Their speed was equal. There were no implications that one was superior than the other in this category, which is why it is completely possible for Cracker to counter every single one of Luffy's attack with both his numbers and speed.

    That reasoning is completely baseless and subjective. It was an off-panel fight because it was simply just off-paneled. You don't know what Oda was thinking and neither do any of us. Maybe it was off-paneled because Oda wants to spend time on other fights. Maybe it would take too long to illustrate. Maybe it just wasn't important to him for the story line.

    That something that managed to finally make a difference was Luffy's final attack. The response is Cracker counter attacking with his clones. Oda made it completely clear that Cracker is almost dead even with Luffy based on the panels he did draw.

    Nobody can care less about what you think a battle should be, but the fact is that from the sequence of events, it's heavily implied that Cracker countered everything and the whole thing was simply a test of endurance. Thing is, we don't even know if he actually countered everything. He could've been fazed/injured several times, such as when Cracker landed a hit on Luffy when he was caught off-guard. Again, nobody gives a shit about your definition of a "true battle."
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