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  1. #1
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    Is Marvel morally right in taking the SJW-route in the comics?

    Or should they stop what some are calling pandering and focus on doing new stories with the established characters and their old personalities like before?

    I think they've gone over the edge. Road to hell, paved with good intentions as they say. I think a child doesn't read the comics and think "yeah don't mansplain!" But go confused and wonder what that term means. It's not part of the everyday lingo really. The whole agenda is pushed in the wrong way, it's better when it's on the background and on the actions the heroes do, but when something like this happens it's just too extreme.



    A contact sport? Who is this aimed towards? The kids who can't vote?

    Thanks to Cake~


  2. #2
    Magistrate of Hentai Ccrack's Avatar
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    it probbly wouldnt matter if their comics weren't complete shit

    whether or not its the political stuff making it shit, i would say its probbly 70% of the problem

  3. #3
    The Illest Villain The Bald Headed Negro's Avatar
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    DC >

  4. #4
    Skraawwk!! Makenzye's Avatar
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    I cannot tell you how tired I am of this bullshit subject.



  5. #5
    VICE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makenzye View Post
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    I cannot tell you how tired I am of this bullshit subject.
    Tired as in tired of them doing this or do you think i'm a manchild bigot who can't accept that marvel needs to do this and it's natural progression?

    Thanks to Cake~


  6. #6
    Ink Spot's Avatar
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    I just avoid the series that puts shit between the pages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VICE View Post
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    Tired as in tired of them doing this or do you think i'm a manchild bigot who can't accept that marvel needs to do this and it's natural progression?
    Mak is former.

  7. #7
    Skraawwk!! Makenzye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VICE View Post
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    Tired as in tired of them doing this or do you think i'm a manchild bigot who can't accept that marvel needs to do this and it's natural progression?
    I apologize if this feels aggressive because it's not meant to be accusatory or anything like that. I just really want to try and blow this all out in a single post with a brief observation of comic history.



    Anybody who's read comic books for a long enough time know there's two absolutes in the comic book industry: Progression and Regression. Evolution and Going Back. Happens to all comic imprints and every series who has 50 issues under its belt are guilty of these. Any concept in comic books can be brought back to these two things.

    What Marvel has done is the same thing Marvel has always done. What DC has always done. And what Image has always done. It's pushing it's progression stage from a previous regression point. This means its quite literally trying to catch up with the times from solid known ground. That includes readjusting to politics, demographics, story telling modes, and updating character looks. Every five to ten years every comic imprint trends towards reevaluation. It's no big secret that comic companies do this and the causes of such.

    If we track DC's progression alone from 1985 to today it works like this: Crisis on Infinite Earths revitalized and created a cohesive timescale --> 1991 Armageddon 2001 sets in and begins a trend toward the 90's and Regresses in terms of titles --> 1991 to 1994 builds with progression post Parallax where DC begins to tamper with the idea of brand new (and oddly minority) heroes which ends with Zero Hour which regresses by reintroducing the concept of legacy to their comics --> The next ten years are about DC trying to re-expand and alter their characters radically to fit the new horizon with things like reintroducing Red/Blue Superman, DC One Million, AzBats, etc. --> 2005 DC attempts to reign in it's history with Infinite Crisis and regresses by trying to corral the crazier parts of their history --> Literally and metaphorically One Year Later DC attempts to completely push forward story telling again by radically changing the landscape --> The New 52 tries to return DC to "it's roots" by attempting conservation and progression like they did with Crisis on Infinite Earths. --> Rebirth. DC tries really hard to return to its actual roots by trying to establish legacy (again) while instilling the older feeling of comic book reading. Basically appealing to direct nostalgia.

    That's thirty years of DC rolled up. Marvel is absolutely no better at this from taking trends and shoving them hard in crazy directions. It might be accused of doing this even more. Marvel just got done with Secret Wars whose job was to re-establish the Marvel Universe in a more "traditional" sense and was able to get rid of ideas they didn't like while exploring room for ideas they did like and immediately started adding in new characters to fill older roles while creating "side roles" for existing superhero monikers.

    So the question posed is, "Has Marvel gone too far?" The answer is, "No." Marvel has recognized an entire flaw with the comic book industry and has for years outsold it's competitors (sometimes more than 2-to-1) by identifying these very flaws. We just don't see them as flaws when they're good to us. When people worry about the "SJW" interest in comics, it's usually from the idea of, "A woman can't replace Thor!" or "Black people can't be Captain America!" or "Marvel is just using race as a gimmick!" while championing, "Marvel is trying to push its leftist SJW cuck agenda down our throats!" when Marvel has, for decades, been lauded as being on the cutting edge of social/comic book boundaries. That's the thing which put Marvel on the map. Spider-Mas wasn't an accident. 70's cultural comics weren't an out of left field success. The 80's revolution wasn't a coincidence. Early to mid-2000's inner conflict wasn't a random fluke. Marvel correctly identified at each and every one of those points what the public was looking for and issued comics directly to them. And Marvel is simply continuing that trend by introducing other colors into bigger roles than they had previously. It isn't pandering, that's looking over the geography of people with purchase power and understanding your audience. Pandering would be introducing a character of color and literally instilling them as better than what already existed, which isn't what Marvel is doing. It's just showing characters that more or less are the same as any other character.

    This is called "Normalizing a concept," and something comic imprints perfected decades ago by simply continually writing comics. When a new concept comes up, comics write in that direction for long enough that the minority of detractors eventually just stop whining about it. Do people still complain about women having a bigger role outside of housekeeping and secretarial work on a superhero team, do they? How gay people aren't just bizarre side attractions in comics? That Will Eisner is kowtowing to the "liberal agenda" for making Ebony White not look and act like this?



    Marvel doesn't want to actually say things like, "OMG Guys! Woman Thor! OMG Guys! Black Spider-Man!" They actively try to shy away from that in their advertisements so the characters can try and succeed alone. They aren't pandering to the Russian crowd with the new Wasp, they're not pandering to the white crowd by letting Steve Rogers back into the Cap title, they're definitely not pandering to a white crowd with making the physical representation of a cosmic cube a white girl, and they're not pandering to the black crowd by giving Black Panther two monthly series. That's just Marvel trying to expand its horizons.

    In your opening post you put in something about how "children" won't understand these things and I really wanted to cover this because I've heard this accusation/complaint/observation a lot. Marvel hasn't written predominantly towards children for over 30 years. This idea largely out-dates me. I grew up in a time where comics were definitely not so much for children as they were for teenagers or older. Marvel does have some children books, and those books are clearly geared towards children. But books like Old Man Logan, Avengers, Spider-Man, X-Men, Uncanny Avengers, X-Force, The Vision, Occupy Avengers (blugh), The Infamous Iron Man, Unworthy Thor, etc? They're not geared at children. There is no world where a mutant assassination team which looks to kill controversial leaders in controversial methods for controversial reasons appeals to any child. They're geared at young and full grown adults. People who demand a bit more to their story than what the Champions provide, which is geared toward a younger age.

    Do you guys remember when Jean Grey as the Phoenix blew up a planet and killed billions of people to feed herself, was okay with it for a while, and then committed suicide because she knew she couldn't stop? When Tony Stark became an alcoholic which led to some deaths and then he saw a woman die of alcoholism in a gutter shortly after giving birth and wondering what future the kid has? Comics deal with the fantastic, but that's not kid stuff.

    You mentioned jargon as well but jargon is something always and constantly updated in comics. I don't remember people really complaining when superheroes were literally saying, "Ay Curamba!" or, "Bolt from the Blue!" or "That's jive!" or "Give a brother a break!" or "All that and a bag of chips," or "That babe is bangin!" Again, comics haven't been written for kids in a long time. Comics are generally reflective of common terminology of the date they're written at, that's why you'll see old celebrities being compared to other characters in different decades. Writers aren't consulting the "Dictionary of rarely used terms," to write comics. They're terms everybody at the time knows about. 12 years from now young comic book readers will be looking back on comics released five years ago and wonder if Katy Perry was ever attractive or what the hell, "On fleek" means.

    To your bigger question about if you're wondering do I think you're some, "manchild bigot?" The answer is: I honestly don't know how you feel about the grand landscape of comics so I don't know how you fall into any category. You may feel that making a black person Captain America is the straw which broke the camel's back, or that the very idea of a Muslim taking on the banner of a passed title is just too much to swallow. Perhaps you enjoy the perpetual nature of restoring a comic idea to its bare bones as the best parts. Maybe you just feel that Marvel is trying to expand too quickly. There's no way for me to know. Maybe you just don't enjoy more complex comic book story lines. There's an entire demographic of people who feel comics completely peaked in the 50's and have only regressed since then because of that very concept. I can't blame or accuse someone if all they want to see every month is Superman show up, clock a bank robber and talk about community service (despite that being an agenda all its own).

    I can only offer one guideline for anybody who wonders about if it's a comic or personal problem: If someone feels in their heart that a comic company introducing demographic concepts into certain comics is a purely negative thing or is something which they feel is a personal attack by an industry which doesn't even know they exist, then the problem lies with the reader. Because that strays away from the concept of "good story" or "bad story" and places itself comfortably into the realm of a "personal issue."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ink Spot View Post
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    I just avoid the series that puts shit between the pages.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Mak is former.
    That's pretty true. lol I see this topic come up like three times a week in comment sections or as a thread idea and it feels so weird.


    Also, great advice about just avoiding comics you don't like. Hard because Marvel's entire business model revolves around Big Events, but rewarding because you'd probably stop reading Marvel altogether and you'll stop caring. lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    One last thing: It's not entirely unfair to see trends and like/dislike them. That's why I'm not going to say anybody is some bigot or neckbeard or scumsucker. Notice when I was talking about decades I left out the 90's because I can't really recall any trends I enjoyed despite it being pretty successful for half that decade. There are some people liked that decade of comics and it's unfair to recognize how that trend fed into other trends. There was an extremely successful trend, but it was a horrible trend. So recognizing a trend and disliking it isn't necessarily bad, so long as the reasons aren't born of personal issues. It's a pretty blurry line since a lot of what makes a good or bad trend can sometimes be the same reason. For instance, it's not necessarily bad to dislike a trend if you think that it's sacrificing story and ruining characters for spectacle. That was the entire idea behind the 90's. However, some people believe that the 2010's are actually sacrificing story and character for spectacle, or trying to tell "too much of a story and ruining characters." Basically forcing the story into places it wouldn't go normally. Every decade has it's clunkers in this concept. Every decade has a few successes in this concept. But it's when you start to take these things personally that it extends past recognizing a trend and internalizing a trend. Do I hate 90's comics? Sure, mostly. Do I hate them because I think they ruined characters? For sure. Do I think 90's comics tried something different and THAT'S what I hated? No.

    On reflection I hated 90's comic trends because of how much they regressed the very concept of comic story telling and reached for spectacle and conflicting concepts over trying to emphasize characters. That's more of a, "What does a comic tell" as opposed to anything else. The entire sacrifice of character or story was meant not in an attempt to expand horizons but more to alter the very core of superhero comics to change markets. That is a very different concept than what other decades have done. Comics in effect didn't grow so much as they shed entire ideas to try and streamline sales. They actually lost several elements of story telling trying to appeal to the speculator market but not the comic reading market, and for that the 90's can rot in hell.

    IN HELL.
    Last edited by Makenzye; 02-10-2017 at 05:33 PM.



  8. #8
    ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ ส็็็ Tendou's Avatar
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Makenzye again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
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    You wouldn't understand the substance. (under-sub; stand-stance)
    Quote Originally Posted by Typhoon T.O.P. View Post
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    Calling someone a nigger is not racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    "As I watched top with a bashful smile, all I could do was bitterly laugh. His Dao of absurdity and anti-grammar had reached a level beyond my comprehension. "Dealth" was myy only fate."
    B

  9. #9
    Knight of Romance Heart's Avatar
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    Tfw you get sucked in by the prose and before you know it, just read a mak essay

  10. #10

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    @Makenzye;

    Progressing with the times is the last thing they're doing. The pendulum is swinging to the far right not just in North America, but Europe as well. If they were smart, they'd start writing more militarized stories, instead of... whatever that little girl is doing in the OP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I forgot to add that Marvel's CEO recently came out as a Trump supporter. SJWs threatened to boycott Marvel over that, which is funny considering that the company has bent over backward for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    I've never seen someone so openly gay still pretending to be in the closet. You can't make a thread telling us about how you jerk off to your cute boyfriend and still toss out the "I'm not even gay" in the same thread, that doesn't fly Allara.

  11. #11
    Skraawwk!! Makenzye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kong View Post
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    @Makenzye;

    Progressing with the times is the last thing they're doing. The pendulum is swinging to the far right not just in North America, but Europe as well. If they were smart, they'd start writing more militarized stories, instead of... whatever that little girl is doing in the OP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I forgot to add that Marvel's CEO recently came out as a Trump supporter. SJWs threatened to boycott Marvel over that, which is funny considering that the company has bent over backward for them.
    The thing is Marvel hasn't bent over backwards for anybody but who has money and even then they're really bending over backwards for their own Big Events at the moment to generate that money. The people who cry "SJW!" aren't huge purchasers of comics (or at least they keep buying them anyway), and people claim to boycott for any given reason anymore. Marvel's last care isn't trying to push an agenda so much as expand an already existing landscape further to reflect its own reading demographic. Like I said earlier, it's no accident Marvel tends to outsell its competitors for the past few decades (except for DC for about four or five months in 2016 with that sweet Rebirth boost and pricing that has already faded). That's the way Marvel has pretty much always operated. Except for Big Event style focus which has only been in the past 15 years.

    Concerning the political stances of comic personalities? They're all over the place. Famously, Chuck Dixon is a big time conservative but everybody works alongside him like anybody else. Ditko has tremendous conservative leanings as well. And there are some who try to write comics specifically to counteract the "liberal point" of comics, despite themselves coming off liberal in the end.

    There's a big confusion that comic books have liberal bends because writers make them that way but it's not really true. Comic books have become seemingly "liberal" to some because superheroes come off as "liberal" by point and purpose. The thing is comics have ALWAYS told these tales but were always seen as more moderate/individualistic. The entire idea behind them is to protect the public from bigger things and/or groups, and to enhance personal freedoms, understanding, and general protection. Comics have spent decades with heroes dealing with the point of inclusion and doing away with the regressive mindsets of segregation and individuality. Unless there's a war on and it's the 1940's, then superheroes are happy to volunteer to sell war bonds. Back when comics would be accused of having a "conservative bend."

    Superheroes literally see themselves as a public service. This has only been recently seen as something we've come to structurally view as what only a liberal would do especially as heroes have consistently had to fight off the "tyranny of the masses" more than a few times and how some have come to believe the ever rising idea that government services are a negative thing in some groups. The truth is the vast majority of superheroes are moderates with a few exceptions and only recently as political divides start to swing wider do we start to really whine about political biases in comics. Biases which largely are built into the very basis of what a superhero even is. While comics will always change this a of case of people more changing what they see in comics. Sometimes things which aren't even there. We just want the problem to be there because that problem is EVERYWHERE to some people.

    If 80 years of comic books has taught us anything, it's taught us comics consistently move toward the "progressive" end of things and probably always will.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heart View Post
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    Tfw you get sucked in by the prose and before you know it, just read a mak essay
    Sorry.
    Last edited by Makenzye; 02-10-2017 at 07:41 PM.



  12. #12
    Ink Spot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makenzye View Post
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    That's pretty true. lol I see this topic come up like three times a week in comment sections or as a thread idea and it feels so weird.


    Also, great advice about just avoiding comics you don't like. Hard because Marvel's entire business model revolves around Big Events, but rewarding because you'd probably stop reading Marvel altogether and you'll stop caring. lol
    That's exactly what happened to me.

    I'll still pick through the trash to get some vital info I might have missed, but beyond that. I don't care.

  13. #13
    say-and-sing's Avatar
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    I just read above posted Ms. Marvel #13. I hoped for a silly PSA, but by god, it's just horrible.


    It starts off promising with MM getting a new classmate, who gets to sit next to her:


    Maybe it was my obrigkeitshöriger german teenage ass, but back in the days, my first worry after being sent to a new school would not have been "my parents have to vote in a different district now!" Well, I guess kids these days... oh my I start sounding like old man Mak.

    As it turns out, the redistricting of the city is supposed to help Mr. Evil against his incompetent predecessor.


    So with both party candidates being douches and turds, never fear, a third party candidate is here:


    So it's current ineffective guy vs. the evil schmuck who cares only about rich people vs. the good-hearted-female-librarian-PhD FDR - whom to vote for? Just whom?


    I also love how her friend liking the candidate is apparently ALL the information MM needs to base her voting decision on.


    Fast forward, Ms. Marvel encounters a lot of people unwilling to vote (touching slightly and shortly on real-life issues like having to vote on a workday), but after a two-minute speech they are ready to go. So they come by the evil candidate's rally and his terrible minions. Well, voters whose opinion differs from theirs. Srsly, the way they are portrayed.



    And now shit hits the fan:


    Let's leave aside the complete PR-nightmare. Let's leave aside legal implications.

    So you're telling me that hundreds of people led by a superhuman are willing to throw out their democratic rights because three hicks (probably I could take on) with tasers are obstructing their path (kinda, it's not like they are in front of the voting booths or anything - they just stand in a public place which could be circumvented).

    People have faced and are facing severe, horrible oppression while fighting for democratic participation. And here it's nothing. This is just downright insulting.

    So MM kicks their asses, 90% of the people go to vote and their candidate win. So what do we learn from this?



    Inspiring. Too bad it had absolutely nothing to do with this drivel. A superhuman being took action and flipped the whole vote in like 2 hours by making a simple speech and beating up three guys. FAIL.

    Now for something inspiring:


  14. #14
    Skraawwk!! Makenzye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makenzye View Post
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    I cannot tell you how tired I am of this bullshit subject.
    I almost made it a FULL MONTH before I had to deal with this again this past week.



  15. #15
    I don't think it has much to do with morality at all, it's not really an issue of right or wrong.

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