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Thread: Gokei vs Keisha

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    I never said Keisha was incapable of prep, just that instinctual types are best at reacting and adapting on the fly be reading the pulse of the battle, he knew that Duke was a fellow instinct type so he knew how to properly respond to his movements. Kousonryuu and Mangoku's movements were predictions of Keisha? What does that even mean? He was the one that ordered those movements.

    I'm one of the few people who said Keisha wins the first round, not sure why you're targeting my post for underestimating him.

    sorry then mate. Was just talking about the attitude toward keisha that I observed in general. Did not mean to single any one out.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    I never said Keisha was incapable of prep, just that instinctual types are best at reacting and adapting on the fly be reading the pulse of the battle, he knew that Duke was a fellow instinct type so he knew how to properly respond to his movements. Kousonryuu and Mangoku's movements were predictions of Keisha? What does that even mean? He was the one that ordered those movements.
    We have seen no more than two purely instinctual generals. One disregarded anything about tactics, prep and strategy, the other one specialized on these. So I'm not sure how did you decide that instinct is just about reacting. Even Duke Hyou sending to die thousands of men to Kyuugen's hill was not a reaction to anything, but it was instinct. A successful move, at that.

    Now, Keisha didn't perform a reaction move ONCE in the battle against the Duke. The predictions are:
    _ once Duke Hyou breaks through Rihaku's lines and notices they're not opposing the usual resistance, his instinct will make him suspect a trap.
    _ at this point I, Keisha, will signal Kousonryuu to move, cuz I'm also predicting that once Duke Hyou notices it, he'll charge straight towards Kousonryuu's direction, still driven by his instinct.
    _ when finally his tail is vulnerable after all of this, I'm sending Mangoku to reap his rear, predicting that it's going to be the place where his finest men have been sent to breathe after the first clashes.

    The only chance for Keisha to show something about reacting would have been after Shin takes the rear and kills Mangoku, but he doesn't. In fact, Keisha isn't as strong at reacting as he is at planning. And if we want to find some meaning to the defeat at Kokuyou, it's precisely a bad reaction to an unexpected course of events.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    We have seen no more than two purely instinctual generals. One disregarded anything about tactics, prep and strategy, the other one specialized on these. So I'm not sure how did you decide that instinct is just about reacting. Even Duke Hyou sending to die thousands of men to Kyuugen's hill was not a reaction to anything, but it was instinct. A successful move, at that.
    We've seen more than two instinctual characters though. Renpa used his instinct to chart a perfect course going up through Moubu's hill fortifications, guiding his movements entirely with his gut feeling to reach the top unscathed similar to how Duke Hyou sensed the correct path through the Ryuudou. Shin picks up on things with his instinct that lets him know where to move in battle and how to respond. Now Keisha is a spider and not a tiger, but instinct is instinct, so it's the same at the end of the day.

    Keisha shows this at Kokuyou. When he was sitting on top of the hill he didn't have a plan in store for when Kanki arrived, his plan was to get a feel for his heartbeat once he arrived on the battlefield and whip something up from there. When Kanki didn't show up we saw how blind Keisha is when he doesn't have anything to get a read on and ultimately he ended up making a reaction towards the Hi Shin Unit which was the only thing sitting in his web.

    Define what instinct means to you, because the manga very clearly built it as the contrast to strategy.

    Now, Keisha didn't perform a reaction move ONCE in the battle against the Duke. The predictions are:
    _ once Duke Hyou breaks through Rihaku's lines and notices they're not opposing the usual resistance, his instinct will make him suspect a trap.
    _ at this point I, Keisha, will signal Kousonryuu to move, cuz I'm also predicting that once Duke Hyou notices it, he'll charge straight towards Kousonryuu's direction, still driven by his instinct.
    _ when finally his tail is vulnerable after all of this, I'm sending Mangoku to reap his rear, predicting that it's going to be the place where his finest men have been sent to breathe after the first clashes.
    They weren't blind reactions, but I could argue the latter two were such feats. It's be reading the Duke Hyou's pulse and sensing his rhythm that he was able to execute the right steps in the battle. His withdrawals being the gut instinct to sensing something is wrong when they tried to lure him out or reach him. I interpret them as informed reactions for the most part.

    It doesn't mean they can't be tactical. Instinct is gives you a keen sense of things, noticing strange activity in the distance, feeling the pulse of their opponent, reading the flow of a battle or formation even if unfamiliar. An instinctual general has to be adaptable with quick reactions since they rely on gut feelings and sensing the battlefield to operate as generals.

    The only chance for Keisha to show something about reacting would have been after Shin takes the rear and kills Mangoku, but he doesn't. In fact, Keisha isn't as strong at reacting as he is at planning. And if we want to find some meaning to the defeat at Kokuyou, it's precisely a bad reaction to an unexpected course of events.
    Bad reaction or not, it still shows him operating on reaction. He didn't sit up on that hill spinning up a plan on how to wipe out Kanki and his army, he sat up on that hill waiting for Kanki to do something so that he could get a read off of him and respond accordingly. He's not a strategic type general.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    We've seen more than two instinctual characters though. Renpa used his instinct to chart a perfect course going up through Moubu's hill fortifications, guiding his movements entirely with his gut feeling to reach the top unscathed similar to how Duke Hyou sensed the correct path through the Ryuudou. Shin picks up on things with his instinct that lets him know where to move in battle and how to respond. Now Keisha is a spider and not a tiger, but instinct is instinct, so it's the same at the end of the day.

    Keisha shows this at Kokuyou. When he was sitting on top of the hill he didn't have a plan in store for when Kanki arrived, his plan was to get a feel for his heartbeat once he arrived on the battlefield and whip something up from there. When Kanki didn't show up we saw how blind Keisha is when he doesn't have anything to get a read on and ultimately he ended up making a reaction towards the Hi Shin Unit which was the only thing sitting in his web.

    Define what instinct means to you, because the manga very clearly built it as the contrast to strategy.
    I said we've seen just 2 PURELY instinctual guys.

    And it's pointless that you come here giving me examples of instinctual reactions. I'm not that much an idiot to say instinct never operates on read-reactions chains. But you said that is all there is to instinct, and I simply showed you some examples of how this isn't the case.

    They weren't blind reactions, but I could argue the latter two were such feats. It's be reading the Duke Hyou's pulse and sensing his rhythm that he was able to execute the right steps in the battle. His withdrawals being the gut instinct to sensing something is wrong when they tried to lure him out or reach him. I interpret them as informed reactions for the most part.

    It doesn't mean they can't be tactical. Instinct is gives you a keen sense of things, noticing strange activity in the distance, feeling the pulse of their opponent, reading the flow of a battle or formation even if unfamiliar. An instinctual general has to be adaptable with quick reactions since they rely on gut feelings and sensing the battlefield to operate as generals.
    It's ok, but what you're describing isn't accurate concerning this very battle. Can't you see Keisha prepared it all beforehand? They're not blind reactions, those are planned actions. It's not "let's go with this setup and we'll see what happens", and you can tell they have a plan since every step couldn't be performed as efficiently without the previous steps to have worked.

    Bad reaction or not, it still shows him operating on reaction. He didn't sit up on that hill spinning up a plan on how to wipe out Kanki and his army, he sat up on that hill waiting for Kanki to do something so that he could get a read off of him and respond accordingly. He's not a strategic type general.
    This is correct, because he doesn't know kanki as well as he knew duke hyou. Anyway, he put himself in a position from where he could afford the best reactions in any kind of development. As such, taking the hill was a strategy to begin with.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    I said we've seen just 2 PURELY instinctual guys.

    And it's pointless that you come here giving me examples of instinctual reactions. I'm not that much an idiot to say instinct never operates on read-reactions chains. But you said that is all there is to instinct, and I simply showed you some examples of how this isn't the case.
    Pointless? I'm not trying to point out objective facts about Keisha here, the author didn't make it that clear how exactly he operated with his instincts. I'm simply taking the traits we've seen from instinctual types and applying them to Keisha since he is an instinctual type, and some of the inner looks at how he operated during Kokuyou. I apply those onto his actions during the Coalition War since it's otherwise a bit vague where they come into play, but his instinct is what was played up during the Coalition War and how he was able to trap the Duke which implied that wouldn't have been done by strategy alone.

    You still haven't defined what instinct means to you, because the manga very clearly built it up as something entirely different then strategy. We've had an entire war based around Instinct vs Strategy to highlight them as entirely different beasts. We have Renpa being listed as such a beast because he can swap between both instinct and strategy, showing them as two separate assets.

    Keisha isn't a Renpa blend of instinct and strategy, he's a pure-instinctual type like you yourself just admitted.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Pointless? I'm not trying to point out objective facts about Keisha here, the author didn't make it that clear how exactly he operated with his instincts. I'm simply taking the traits we've seen from instinctual types and applying them to Keisha since he is an instinctual type, and some of the inner looks at how he operated during Kokuyou. I apply those onto his actions during the Coalition War since it's otherwise a bit vague where they come into play, but his instinct is what was played up during the Coalition War and how he was able to trap the Duke which implied that wouldn't have been done by strategy alone.

    You still haven't defined what instinct means to you, because the manga very clearly built it up as something entirely different then strategy. We've had an entire war based around Instinct vs Strategy to highlight them as entirely different beasts. We have Renpa being listed as such a beast because he can swap between both instinct and strategy, showing them as two separate assets.

    Keisha isn't a Renpa blend of instinct and strategy, he's a pure-instinctual type like you yourself just admitted.
    Enough with the Keisha downplay, Gokei was a scrub who got absolutely murked by Duke Hyou and all through his campaign i never once got the impression that taking the hill was a particularly difficult feat had the task been entrusted to someone half competent and not some scrub commander. Duke Hyou was extremely understaffed in the war against Gokei and still won

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    I'm simply taking the traits we've seen from instinctual types and applying them to Keisha since he is an instinctual type
    How can you do that, if Keisha is 50% of the instinct feats we've seen in the manga? More like, you're applying Duke Hyou traits to Keisha, and of course it's not gonna work.

    Several generals demonstrate that strategy and instinct aren't polar opposites. Just as they have been portrayed as conflict paradigms (Gokei vs Duke), they have also been included in the same person's modus operandi in more than one case (Ouki, Tou, Renpa, just to mention the conventional ones). It's not like you have either one or the other.

    Keisha isn't called pure instinctual by me, he's the only one who's given that title together with Duke Hyou in the manga itself. And if this individual shows off better planning feats than reacting feats, maybe instinct isn't all about reacting after all. This is my only point of this discussion.

  8. #28
    It clearly isnt as easy as just grouping them into two seperate categories; strategy and instinct either. There are many different types of strategic generals in the manga and Duke Hyou and Keisha are clearly different in how they set up based on their exchange in the CW.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    Enough with the Keisha downplay, Gokei was a scrub who got absolutely murked by Duke Hyou and all through his campaign i never once got the impression that taking the hill was a particularly difficult feat had the task been entrusted to someone half competent and not some scrub commander. Duke Hyou was extremely understaffed in the war against Gokei and still won
    Did you even read the post you responded to? I never mentioned Gokei at all in my post nor did I downplay Keisha, I'm having a discussion on how I interpreted his actions as a general, not disputing his effectiveness as a general. I actually stated Gokei would lose if Keisha was defending, which is giving him more credit than most in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    How can you do that, if Keisha is 50% of the instinct feats we've seen in the manga? More like, you're applying Duke Hyou traits to Keisha, and of course it's not gonna work.
    I'm applying from Duke Hyou, Shin, Renpa, and Keisha himself to get an overall grasp on how I define instinct.

    I've asked how you define instinct and you keep on dodging the question. I can't have this discussion without you if I don't understand your own standpoint on the matter.

    Several generals demonstrate that strategy and instinct aren't polar opposites. Just as they have been portrayed as conflict paradigms (Gokei vs Duke), they have also been included in the same person's modus operandi in more than one case (Ouki, Tou, Renpa, just to mention the conventional ones). It's not like you have either one or the other.
    Never did I claim they were polar opposites, just that they were different. I already addressed Renpa as someone who was such a threat because he could swap between both instinct and strategy. Keisha has always been emphasized as an instinctual general, not a strategic type or a Renpa type blend between instinct and strategy.

    Keisha isn't called pure instinctual by me, he's the only one who's given that title together with Duke Hyou in the manga itself. And if this individual shows off better planning feats than reacting feats, maybe instinct isn't all about reacting after all. This is my only point of this discussion.
    You straight up called him a "PURELY instinctual guy" in your last post.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Did you even read the post you responded to? I never mentioned Gokei at all in my post nor did I downplay Keisha, I'm having a discussion on how I interpreted his actions as a general, not disputing his effectiveness as a general. I actually stated Gokei would lose if Keisha was defending, which is giving him more credit than most in this thread.
    Clearly you are the main driving force for the Keisha downplay, both me and J Caesar agree. We have never seen Keisha as an attacking general, so where do you come up with the assertion that hed only lose if he was defending? Absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    I'm applying from Duke Hyou, Shin, Renpa, and Keisha himself to get an overall grasp on how I define instinct.

    I've asked how you define instinct and you keep on dodging the question. I can't have this discussion without you if I don't understand your own standpoint on the matter.
    Don't get me wrong, but it's not the moment for me to get involved into a larger discussion. I just want to conclude this one, which seems to me happened a couple of exchanges ago. I think you got what my point is, since it was very simple and concise. We'll have a debate about instinct another day. Just know I agreed on most of what you've said itt aside of when you said instinct is only about reaction and Keisha did no predictionwork against Duke Hyou. That's why I'm insistent on that part.

    You straight up called him a "PURELY instinctual guy" in your last post.
    Again, it's not merely "me". It's-the-manga that calls him instinctual type. Am I so bad at explaining myself?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    Clearly you are the main driving force for the Keisha downplay, both me and J Caesar agree. We have never seen Keisha as an attacking general, so where do you come up with the assertion that hed only lose if he was defending? Absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence.
    There is no absence of evidence.

    Keisha is a general who spins a web that entangles anyone who steps into it, making him a very difficult opponent do defeat. The best way to defeat him is to draw him off of his web where he is vulnerable, this is directly stated by Riboku and confirmed by Kanki.

    If Gokei is a general famed for his defensive formations sitting in the midst of naturally fortified land then there is not a single reason for him to go out and step into Keisha's web when he's not the aggressor in the war. It's Keisha who will have to leave his comfort zone and try to tackle Gokei's defenses where he'll be at his most vulnerable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispinianus View Post
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    Don't get me wrong, but it's not the moment for me to get involved into a larger discussion. I just want to conclude this one, which seems to me happened a couple of exchanges ago. I think you got what my point is, since it was very simple and concise. We'll have a debate about instinct another day. Just know I agreed on most of what you've said itt aside of when you said instinct is only about reaction and Keisha did no predictionwork against Duke Hyou. That's why I'm insistent on that part.
    I said they're reactionary, not that they're just reactions, having good reactions isn't a fighting style. Keisha is about preparation and trapping, he weaves a web, then he pounces the moment he senses someone has stepped into it.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Did you even read the post you responded to? I never mentioned Gokei at all in my post nor did I downplay Keisha, I'm having a discussion on how I interpreted his actions as a general, not disputing his effectiveness as a general. I actually stated Gokei would lose if Keisha was defending, which is giving him more credit than most in this thread.



    I'm applying from Duke Hyou, Shin, Renpa, and Keisha himself to get an overall grasp on how I define instinct.

    I've asked how you define instinct and you keep on dodging the question. I can't have this discussion without you if I don't understand your own standpoint on the matter.



    Never did I claim they were polar opposites, just that they were different. I already addressed Renpa as someone who was such a threat because he could swap between both instinct and strategy. Keisha has always been emphasized as an instinctual general, not a strategic type or a Renpa type blend between instinct and strategy.



    You straight up called him a "PURELY instinctual guy" in your last post.

    Sorry If I am butting in this discussion. But I think the problem with your thinking in general is that you think Instinct and strategic generals are mostly separate. This is not the case, in fact Ouki points this out when he was talking about duke hyou and Gokei. Yes some generals tend to favour some aspect over another but most talented generals in the series would use both Instinct and Strategy. Its not only Renpa that can do that, it just that Renpa mastery of those is equal to the very best of both strategy and instinctual types. Thus I definitely think that what Keisha used against Duke hyou was strategy. In short just because Keisha was called a Insticyual type does not mean he cannot use strategy and vice-versa.

  14. #34
    You shouldnt think of Keisha web as an actual battle formation but more as Keishas mindset as a general. The web as its called, is keisha luring his opponents into traps in battle just like a spider does with its web and slowly ensnaring them. Keisha can behave like that either offensively or defensively. Kanki disturbing that had nothing to do with him disturbing an actual attacking or defensive formation Keisha had set up, but rather his line of thinking.

    Riboku has stated he has lost to Keisha in some of his situational battles, I honestly have no idea why you think a scrub like Gokei compares to him at all whether it is in attack or defence. The fact of the matter is if Duke Hyou didnt go on the offensive, Keisha would have as the invader and Riboku put enough trust in Keisha to be able to handle. Its asinine to think there is some great leap between his offensive and defensive abilities.

  15. #35
    Keisha's best two feats have come when he instinctually responded to people attacking him. That's where his talent is truly allowed to shine. He's more of a counter attacking General. When someone doesn't attack him, he can't use his full abilities.

    Gokei is every bit as powerful as Keisha if not more so though, IMO. He didn't lose to Duke Hyou because he was inferior - he lost because he refused to back down. His infantry cut Duke's cavalry by half and in Gokei's mind at least, he had 100 different formations he could have used to counter Duke once he was close. There were other factors also, like Hakukisai's 50 thousand men being held up by Ouki.

    Ouki knows how powerful Duke Hyou is and didn't know who would win the war himself. Gokei was Wei's number 1, he was the most important figure to a man who paralleled Shunshinkun and had stats of 89-93-97. The same knowledge stat as Ousen, Karin, Shouheikun and Reiou.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Caesar View Post
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    Sorry If I am butting in this discussion. But I think the problem with your thinking in general is that you think Instinct and strategic generals are mostly separate.
    GP clearly stated multiple times that some generals have both traits, such as Renpa or even Shin...
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato View Post
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    Keisha is a general who spins a web that entangles anyone who steps into it, making him a very difficult opponent do defeat. The best way to defeat him is to draw him off of his web where he is vulnerable, this is directly stated by Riboku and confirmed by Kanki.

    If Gokei is a general famed for his defensive formations sitting in the midst of naturally fortified land then there is not a single reason for him to go out and step into Keisha's web when he's not the aggressor in the war. It's Keisha who will have to leave his comfort zone and try to tackle Gokei's defenses where he'll be at his most vulnerable.
    I feel like a war between Keisha and Gokei where Keisha was on the "offensive" wouldn't go anywhere... I don't think Gokei has what it takes to lure Keisha out the way Kanki did. The war would ultimately go nowhere. That being said, as stated by some of you, Gokei's problem was not backing down, so even if Keisha was on the offensive, it wouldn't be impossible to get Gokei into his "web."

    It'd be an odd war.
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    Rob always has the last word. In fact, I'd argue that Rob > God.

    At least Rob wouldn't give us the appendix and call it an intelligent design.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
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    GP clearly stated multiple times that some generals have both traits, such as Renpa or even Shin...

    I think we got knotted too much on this point, when we're clearly all thinking the same thing.

    I guess the key is to be found in how we use "strategy" in this context.

    As a matter of being, of essence, the strategical mentality is clearly opposed to the instinctual way of interacting with the battle, so who says that Keisha is on prevalence instinctual isn't wrong. Because he gets information with instinct, he uses it to read his opponent and to capture the smell of the battlefield. All things Gokei will never do, Ousen will never do, Riboku will never do.

    As a way of thinking and a way to wage war, saying that Keisha USES strategy is also correct. Because he's clearly shown us he's capable of prepping, of tactics, of long term plans. He knows the ways of the strategists just like any other strategical type.

    So Keisha is purely instinctual in the way he interacts with the battlefield, which is visceral, elusive and illogical just as much as Duke Hyou's. It's not the maps, the chess simulations or the supply lines studies that give him the knowledge he needs, but it's his nose, his belly, his intestines. How does he use these reads? With strategy, because he's not a Moubu. He just builds the fittest death trap for the opponent he's facing, and sits. When it's time to strike a the decisive blow, he stands up and jumps on his prey. But to prepare for that moment, he needs to wage his war through strategy: tactical maneuvers, baits, traps, feints, terrain usage. That's how Keisha is, and at the same time isn't, a blend between strategy and instinct.

  18. #38
    I don't think there was much strategy in Keisha's plans. Before hand he told the other Generals not to move unless he orders them to. He instinctually believed Duke would move in certain ways and so ordered his men to make certain movements because he felt it would make a confused Duke act in a certain way. There were tactics, but they were made up on the fly because he instinctually predicted how Duke would respond. A strategic general would have had a pre-planned move (or several) ready to execute.

    At least that's how I interpret it. It's a tricky one
    Last edited by Kanki; 01-16-2017 at 08:44 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    You shouldnt think of Keisha web as an actual battle formation but more as Keishas mindset as a general. The web as its called, is keisha luring his opponents into traps in battle just like a spider does with its web and slowly ensnaring them. Keisha can behave like that either offensively or defensively. Kanki disturbing that had nothing to do with him disturbing an actual attacking or defensive formation Keisha had set up, but rather his line of thinking.
    The web isn't a battle formation, but is the area in which he weaves his traps. He sets his men in a way where he can have them pounce to anybody who gets entangled in it. The web clearly isn't just the mindset since the way to beat him is to bait him and have him step out of it, removing him from that zone he had set up for himself, you can't physically lure someone away from their mindset. "Don't step into Keisha's web" doesn't make sense if it's just a mindset that can apply anywhere on the battlefield, he can't just suddenly spawn a web behind heavily fortified enemy lines while in the center of conflict, it has a physical presence and it's something he needs to weave before taking effect.

    Riboku has stated he has lost to Keisha in some of his situational battles, I honestly have no idea why you think a scrub like Gokei compares to him at all whether it is in attack or defence. The fact of the matter is if Duke Hyou didnt go on the offensive, Keisha would have as the invader and Riboku put enough trust in Keisha to be able to handle. Its asinine to think there is some great leap between his offensive and defensive abilities.
    Keisha and Duke Hyou's battle was the most separated from the main conflict, they were mainly just there to keep each other in check and make sure no funny business was going off to the sides, that's why both parties placed instinct guys there who could pick up on and detect funny movements. Duke Hyou is a pure offensive type general, he's not a general fit to play defense and that's why Keisha worked well in intercepting him. Throughout the entire Coalition War, Keisha never sticks his neck out for an offensive, his entire style was letting the opponent come to him then eating them up once they landed in his web. Even on the day where the Coalition was meant to wipe out Qin in one fell swoop, Keisha still planted himself and waited.

    If the general he was facing was someone like Gokei and he played defensive then it would probably come down to attrition warfare where neither side made major advances and left the field in the hands of other fronts. Keisha's mere presence would keep whatever general in that area occupied and unable to make any moves towards other fronts without risking getting intercepted, which on its own serves a great advantage to the Coalition Army.

    Not only are Keisha's offensive skills not shown on par with his defensive, but Gokei's defensive skills have been highlighted over his offensive. Gokei is in his comfort zone here and doesn't have to make any daring maneuvers, it's Keisha who has to stick his neck into these naturally fortified lands held by one of Wei's greatest minds who is master of defensive formations and has a sizeable load of Wei chariots waiting to tear any intruders to shreds.
    Last edited by Great Potato; 01-16-2017 at 08:58 PM.

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