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  1. #21
    How many men did Moubu have post-boulder attack in Bayou and how many men did Chousou have? Because Ouki had to bail him out there.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Potato
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    Kanki doesn't fight conventional battles, his entire style is based around being as unconventional and unorthodox as possible.
    The point is there no strategy Kanki could use defeat to Keisha, his entire plan was hinged on whether or not that general would chase after him. Kanki would have lost that war of he never, it was much as down to luck as it was down to strategy

  3. #23
    After the boulder attack, eventually Moubu had 2k soldiers, reduced to 1k against Chousou's 12k and he seemed to be done. This was an exhausted army though and obviously less powerful than the army Moubu has in this thread, though the same can be said of Keisha's army vs Chousou's.

    I don't know if that effects anything

  4. #24
    Say cheese! Makenzye's Avatar
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    I don't think there was as much more luck involved with Keisha as with any other battle. Every battle has some luck to it. Luck that people arrive on time, luck that reinforcements make it, luck that so many people survive, luck through talent, etc.

    Kanki lured Keisha out and Keisha took the bait.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    The point is there no strategy Kanki could use defeat to Keisha, his entire plan was hinged on whether or not that general would chase after him. Kanki would have lost that war of he never, it was much as down to luck as it was down to strategy
    Kanki used a strategy vs Keisha and it worked though. Keisha was beat. Though comparing Kanki and Moubu doesn't work and the terrains were totally opposite as well. Regardless of who wins or loses, the two situations aren't really comparable.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    The point is there no strategy Kanki could use defeat to Keisha, his entire plan was hinged on whether or not that general would chase after him. Kanki would have lost that war of he never, it was much as down to luck as it was down to strategy
    That's how Kanki fights every battle.

    Saying Kanki wouldn't have won without his big gambles that paid off is like saying Duke Hyou wouldn't have beaten Gokei without his instinct or Moubu wouldn't have beaten Kanmei without his strength. It doesn't really mean anything, hinging the battle on great all or nothing risks is what defines Kanki as a general, he was just better than Keisha was.

  7. #27
    The point is that it was only down to Kankis gamble that it worked, I understand that a lot of it was down to anticipating how the enemy would react and acting based on what he thinks his actions, but it doesnt change the fact that it was a gamble and if it didnt come off Kanki would have been disgraced. Even Ten said no other strategist would do what Kanki did, it was almost like Kingdoms version of plot power.

    Either way Moubo wont be doing any upsets like that, he will drown just like the Duke did except he will drown quicker because Keisha has an +80,000 man advantage this time. He isnt a good match up at all

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    Exactly it was only because of some horseshit that Keisha lost, he was out done or outperformed as a general

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    The point is that it was only down to Kankis gamble that it worked, I understand that a lot of it was down to anticipating how the enemy would react and acting based on what he thinks his actions, but it doesnt change the fact that it was a gamble and if it didnt come off Kanki would have been disgraced. Even Ten said no other strategist would do what Kanki did, it was almost like Kingdoms version of plot power.

    Either way Moubo wont be doing any upsets like that, he will drown just like the Duke did except he will drown quicker because Keisha has an +80,000 man advantage this time. He isnt a good match up at all

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    Exactly it was only because of some horseshit that Keisha lost, he was out done or outperformed as a general
    This makes no sense lol. Why was it horseshit? Because Kanki left some bait and Keisha (understandably) took it?

  9. #29
    Rank 99 Limited Douluo Xuan Lao's Avatar
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    Kanki: "Who cares about Keisha?"

  10. #30
    Well it clearly is horseshit, even the part where Kanki tried to predict Keisha would fall into his trap. He had no reasonably good way of knowing Keisha would take a bait like that because he got bored. Like how is that even a sensible thing to predict from a seasoned general like Keisha who he barely even kknows? The amount of luck and guess predicition involved in Kankis strategies is ridiculous, its plot protection that it pays off for him every time

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    there was an "or" there. aren't you talking about the first one?

    for the 2nd one though. if army of peasant can be used by Moubu to decimate Zhao's normal forces when he is "trapped" in Rihaku's formation. then I'm not sure how it's impossible for Moubu to do the same thing with Keisha.
    it's in plains and formation doesn't matter much for Moubu if the enemy general isn't outstanding enough.

    change the location to kokuyou and Keisha has a chance
    I was addressing that exact one, hence why I spaced it

    Totally different scenario. Rihaku's forces were dug in because he was confident he could defend against Moubu. He only had to deal with one army, Rihaku's, and Rihaku's army didn't outnumber his much at all. The scenario here would be like if Bayou Moubu had to deal not only with Rihaku, but Fuuki, Kousonryuu, and Chousou's armies as well. Keisha is not dumb enough to dig in and try to outlast Moubu's charge.

    Ah-ah!

    Using a formation directly against Moubu is 99% ineffective, but Keisha doesn't have to do that. He has Mangoku and Kousonryuu's armies on the flanks. You simply let Moubu charge in against 80k of your forces, and use Mangoku/Kousonryuu's 20k (each) armies to flank his army. Before long, he won't have enough men for a charge and it work out just like it did in Bayou against Chousou.

  12. #32
    You act like Kanki was backed into the corner and had no choice but to take a risky gamble because Keisha was such an overwhelming enemy there was no other way. The reality is that Kanki is a highly unorthodox general who fights all of his battles with risky gambles, it's his style of warfare. It doesn't tell us anything that he won through a gamble.

    Zhao got outperformed and outplayed, they ate up every last bit of bait that Kanki had set out for them and handed him a fortified hill on a silver platter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Void View Post
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    Totally different scenario. Rihaku's forces were dug in because he was confident he could defend against Moubu. He only had to deal with one army, Rihaku's, and Rihaku's army didn't outnumber his much at all. The scenario here would be like if Bayou Moubu had to deal not only with Rihaku, but Fuuki, Kousonryuu, and Chousou's armies as well. Keisha is not dumb enough to dig in and try to outlast Moubu's charge.
    That was only the first day.

    On the second day of battle Moubu went against the combined Rihaku & Kousonryuu army which outnumbered him 40k to 20k, and he crushed them both with ease.

  13. #33
    I think we both agree on the part that Kanki is highly unorthdox, maybe my problem isnt with Kanki but with the mangaka himself for making such nonsensical gambles pay off all the time.

    They did get outperformed at times, and the truth was no reasonable general would have all his forces withdraw from the hill when they had a clear advantage on them att on the guess that it would drive the commander in chief of the army absolutely bonkers to the point where he would do something stupid like leaving his protected area. Either way Keisha name shouldnt be dragged through the mud as being someone that Moubo could stomp with an 80,000 man difference. Its beyond asinine to think someone who even had Duke Hyou on the backburner at times would lose with such an overwhelming advantage

  14. #34
    I'd say Moubu is a better matchup for Keisha than Duke Hyou. Keisha was an instinctual general who could deny the Duke Hyou a place to start a fire, robbing him of his greatest asset, and basically forcing him to rush in blindly.

    He can deny Duke Hyou his instinct, but he can't deny Moubu his strength, not on this battlefield.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    Well it clearly is horseshit, even the part where Kanki tried to predict Keisha would fall into his trap. He had no reasonably good way of knowing Keisha would take a bait like that because he got bored. Like how is that even a sensible thing to predict from a seasoned general like Keisha who he barely even kknows? The amount of luck and guess predicition involved in Kankis strategies is ridiculous, its plot protection that it pays off for him every time
    Keisha didn't get 'bored' at all. He became frustrated that he couldn't trap Kanki and saw a target specifically mentioned by Riboku in front of him like a sitting duck. There wasn't much wrong in what Keisha did at all - the consequences were dire but that wasn't due to any stupidity on Keisha's part. One of the two main targets in the war was a sitting target for him and Kanki was nowhere to be seen.

    There are a lot of generals in this manga who would have attacked Shin in the same situation.

  16. #36
    There clearly was something wrong in what he did, he had complete dominance over the hill and an overwhelming advantage over Qin after they had withdrawn from it. If Keisha had played it like he had continued to play it, he would have won the war. If it was Riboku in Keishas shoes he wouldnt have made that mistake, neither would someone like Ordo, or Ouki or Ousen or almost other general. They wouldnt have chased Shin down either. It was completely stupid that Kanki would throw away his advantage because he thought Keisha would react the way he did.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    I think we both agree on the part that Kanki is highly unorthdox, maybe my problem isnt with Kanki but with the mangaka himself for making such nonsensical gambles pay off all the time.

    They did get outperformed at times, and the truth was no reasonable general would have all his forces withdraw from the hill when they had a clear advantage on them att on the guess that it would drive the commander in chief of the army absolutely bonkers to the point where he would do something stupid like leaving his protected area.
    Kisui gave up that advantage because he didn't want his City - who he considers family - to be tortured and killed. It made perfect sense. It wasn't a gamble Kisui was willing to take since from the start his goal was to protect them.

  18. #38
    There is no logic in Moubus strength, if it was someone who would try to meet Moubo head on in a conflict then I would give it to Moubo (but even then I still think he'd die without an exit strategy). The only reason why Moubu could even reach Kanmei amidst that sea of enemies was because of SHK strategy and that was when Kanmei had twice his number.

    Keisha here has three times his number and there is no SHK. Keisha also doesnt have the sort of pride where he would accept a duel from Moubo. Keisha could literally just continuously move his HQ the moment it even looks like hes in danger. Moubo would be slowly overwhelmed in the end

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    Im not talking about Kisui, we where talking about Keisha leaving his hill to meet Shin so what does that have to do with what I just said?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    There clearly was something wrong in what he did, he had complete dominance over the hill and an overwhelming advantage over Qin after they had withdrawn from it. If Keisha had played it like he had continued to play it, he would have won the war. If it was Riboku in Keishas shoes he wouldnt have made that mistake, neither would someone like Ordo, or Ouki or Ousen or almost other general. They wouldnt have chased Shin down either. It was completely stupid that Kanki would throw away his advantage because he thought Keisha would react the way he did.
    Keisha is an impatient general though. Riboku by comparison is far more cautious and simply a lot better. As is Ouki. Once Ordo saw an opportunity he ordered his 8k elite soldiers to run up a wall that he thought was unguarded - Kanki could trick him just like he did Keisha.

    Kisui and Ryoutou believe Keisha's plan was smart. Kisui said "No...there's no mistaking that this surprise attack is an excellent move that will cost Qin its right wing" (chap 465). Kanki had interrogated Keisha's soldiers so he knew exactly what kind of general Keisha was and he used that against them. That's Kanki's style and why his gambles work. He doesn't just risk for the hell of it, they're all calculated and after he's gathered information on the circumstances. The argument of "Riboku wouldn't have done that" is totally irrelevant because Kanki wouldn't have used the same tactic against him. He adapts to his opponents and creates unorthodox schemes based on his information. Just like how he used different tactics against Kaishibou and Genbou.

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    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
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    Im not talking about Kisui, we where talking about Keisha leaving his hill to meet Shin so what does that have to do with what I just said?
    I took this:
    and the truth was no reasonable general would have all his forces withdraw from the hill when they had a clear advantage
    as being about Kisui, since 'withdrawing' describes with Kisui did more than Keisha.

  20. #40
    I know Keisha is impatient, but the thing is how did Kanki?

    Kanki interrogated Kisuis soldiers to learn about Kisuis weakness, Kisuis soldiers would know barely anymore than Kanki about Keisha. There is no evidence that Keisha is impatient from when he took charge of Kisuis troops or when he met Kanki that the troops could use to tell Kanki about. On the contrary he looked extremely patient and willing to wait for Kanki to make his move

    I was referring to Kanki withdrawing his troops from the hill there

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