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  1. #1

    Hercules vs Achilles

    Who wins?

  2. #2
    The strength of a hero is paramount to the weight of their legend. Hercules is the greatest Greek Hero so he's stronger. Problem is servant classes throw a wrench into things as Berserker Heracles is his weakest class while Achilles is fine as a Rider and has abilities that remove God enhancements.

    Achilles wins

  3. #3
    Sincerely Insincere Y's Avatar
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    Achilles wins. His Noble Phantasm pool is too ridiculous.

    The respective heroes legend doesn't have that big of an impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y View Post
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    The legends themselves quite literally make up the Servants skillset if they're widespread enough.
    Vlads entire "legend of Dracula" never happened in his actual life, but because the people there absolutely belief it happened it's part of his skillset even though he'd rather die than to use it. This is only the case when the vast majorit believes it to be this way, though. Servants usually retain their in-life powers and they're amplified/nerfed depending on their fame.

    Fame boosts affects stats and skills, but usually not their NP unless it's a extreme scenario like with Vlad, he's also not precisely stronger than Gil, he's superior to him in stats on every account but that's not Gils forte anyway.
    It's usualyl actually called "Cultural Sphere" in which the Servant is summoned and the Recognition they receive there are two factors that play a role in their strength.

    The closer the are to the stage of their legend, a geographical boost, and the more that they are known makes them "stronger", bringing them closer to the strength they had in their legend and providing them with more of their equipment displayed in their legend. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible it can bless them with additional Noble Phantasms.
    The boost from recognition alone is not that large in making a difference in power as when Rin is speculating on Gils ability to overwhelm other Servants despite not really beeing well known in Japan.

    Land plays a greater factor with Cu, Heracles, and Saber being three heroes around the same level of strength when summoned in Europe. Each would be strengthened in Europe and benefit most greatly in battle in their home country, though Heracles' fame would allow him to display excellent power throughout all of western Europe.

    Cu, gaining zero influence from not being known as well in Japan, does not fully display his "shining existence" on par with them while in Fuyuki, but would anywhere else in the world. He would obtain several benefits from being summoned in his homeland, Ireland, for instance, he would be capable of easily overwhelming Diarmud who would usually, going with their shown incarnations, hold the advantage due to having a much superior master. I already told you how ridiculous Vlads boost in Romania is. But for a bit more reference. http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Legend_of_Dracula
    The impact they have is miniscule, the strength of the respective servant actually had in their lifetime will always stay the biggest and most important factor, homing in second is the masters mana supply with their legend beeing third.

    There are a couple abnormal cases, like with Vlad, but he has a skill which increases the potency of his fame.

    What they ultimately do is put the servant closer and closer to displaying their true power they had in life.
    Last edited by Y; 04-20-2016 at 05:59 PM.


  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Y View Post
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    The respective heroes legend doesn't have that big of an impact.

    the strength of the respective servant actually had in their lifetime will always stay the biggest and most important factor
    That's exactly what I meant. The more impressive the hero in legend --> the stronger the hero. Its for that reason Divine Servants are generally stronger than ones who don't possess divinity (because they are closer to divine spirits than mortals) or its equivalent on the other side of the spectrum.

    Hercules is canonically the strongest Greek Hero which would make him more powerful than Achilles on average. Unfortunately, anything other than Berserker Heracles is a fanfiction.

  5. #5
    Sincerely Insincere Y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    That's exactly what I meant. The more impressive the hero in legend --> the stronger the hero. Its for that reason Divine Servants are almost always stronger than ones who don't possess divinity or its equivalent on the other side of the spectrum.

    Hercules is canonically the strongest Greek Hero which would make him more powerful than Achilles on average. Unfortunately, anything other than Berserker Heracles is a fanfiction.
    The impact of the legend isn't that important, we have in verse statements of that.

    If your max in life was 70 and your legend is well known all over the world you get like 60 out of that, a servant with a 100 in life and 65 in the war is still going to win.

    That's a bit exaggerated, but we know it's just a miniscule factor and nothing entire matchups should be placed upon unless the servants are close to begin with.

    Especially since ability interaction is always going to be the most important factor in this verse.


  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Y View Post
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    The impact of the legend isn't that important, we have in verse statements of that.

    If your max in life was 70 and your legend is well known all over the world you get like 60 out of that, a servant with a 100 in life and 65 in the war is still going to win.

    That's a bit exaggerated, but we know it's just a miniscule factor and nothing entire matchups should be placed upon unless the servants are close to begin with.

    Especially since ability interaction is always going to be the most important factor in this verse.

    You're not disagreeing with me here, I'm not talking about fame or fame boosts servants gain from their homelands. I'm referring to the power they displayed in their legends. In other words, Hercules' legend is a myth of the strongest hero of his age. By default, Achilles can't be stronger than him. How well he is known is a completely separate matter.
    Last edited by Genbu; 04-20-2016 at 06:35 PM.

  7. #7
    Sincerely Insincere Y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genbu View Post
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    You're not disagreeing with me here, I'm not talking about fame or fame boosts servants gain from their homelands. I'm referring to the power they displayed in their legends.
    Yeah I just realized.

    my bad, misread.


  8. #8
    There is something I wonder here.
    Is Achilles "Affection of Goddess" skill already included in his stats?

  9. #9
    Heracles is wasted on Berserker class

    honestly though, there's no way for original FSN cast to actually win had Heracles got summoned on any other class other than depending on Gil every route

  10. #10
    Tremendous Power Huo Yuhao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y View Post
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    Achilles wins. His Noble Phantasm pool is too ridiculous.

    The respective heroes legend doesn't have that big of an impact.



    The impact they have is miniscule, the strength of the respective servant actually had in their lifetime will always stay the biggest and most important factor, homing in second is the masters mana supply with their legend beeing third.

    There are a couple abnormal cases, like with Vlad, but he has a skill which increases the potency of his fame.

    What they ultimately do is put the servant closer and closer to displaying their true power they had in life.
    Cu is on the same level of strength as Saber and Heracles?





  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rong Nianbing View Post
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    Cu is on the same level of strength as Saber and Heracles?
    he's actually a beast with cheat NP lol

    That E-rank luck pretty much kills him in FSN though

  12. #12
    Tremendous Power Huo Yuhao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn_x00 View Post
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    he's actually a beast with cheat NP lol

    That E-rank luck pretty much kills him in FSN though


    I've been underselling this beast it seems





  13. #13
    The Dragon of Katsurahama Nordlending's Avatar
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    I am unfamiliar with Achilles, but he sounds strong.

    Is there any chance Achilles dies of using to much mana on Np. He has to kill Hercules 12 times after all.


    The real world is cold! The real world doesn't care about spirit! You want to be a hero? Then play the part and die like every other Huntsman in history! As for me, I'll do what I do best: lie, steal, cheat and survive!

  14. #14
    My money are on Heracles here.

    Achilles can possibly negate Hercs immortality, by using Diatrekhōn Astēr Lonkhē. The problem with that is the fact that his opponent must agree to the rules of the duel. In other words, if Herc and Illya just say "no" then Achilles won't be able to do anything and why the hell would they willingly nerf themselves.

    Achilles can maybe take a life or two with his chariot, but not all of them.
    Last edited by Cichy; 07-25-2017 at 08:31 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
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    My money are on Heracles here.

    Achilles can possibly negate Hercs immortality, by using Diatrekhōn Astēr Lonkhē. The problem with that is the fact that his opponent must agree to the rules of the duel. In other words, if Herc and Illya just say "no" then Achilles won't be able to do anything and why the hell would they willingly nerf themselves.

    Achilles can maybe take a life or two with his chariot, but not all of them.
    If worst comes to worst he runs over Heracules with a whole world.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by W View Post
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    If worst comes to worst he runs over Heracules with a whole world.
    That won't take all of his lives anyway.

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