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  1. #21
    DoflaMihawk's Avatar
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    Nice, this is getting more interest than I expected.

    @Dayum; Is this gonna be like the official tier list where everyone votes on the stats and the majority decides it?

  2. #22
    ^^^^^^^^^
    I just wanted to see how people thought characters compared outside of a fight. If you want to find a consensus when more lists show up feel free

    Quote Originally Posted by ReXDrake View Post
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    Vergo managed to land blows offpanel against smoker so the gap isnt big and sanjis superiority in speed certainly isnt an entire digit larger
    He is half a point lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Listen, buddy View Post
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    I forgot about that. But to be honest, it would be nice to have all high tiers all in one scale (high, mid, and low)
    The difference between high tiers is too massive to all list on a star system. This would only work with Top Tiers or with 1-100 point list.
    Last edited by Dayum; 11-22-2014 at 07:11 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    He is half a point lower.



    The difference between high tiers is massive. This would only work with Top Tiers.
    Then do a 1 to 10 scale?

    - - - Updated - - -

    And if people going the route of voting, I think people should vote after discussion to clear up common misconception of feats because I don't like outliner data. Since we are dealing with numbers, thing are easy to average.

  4. #24
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    At first, I didn't like this thread, I thought it was kinda pointless and it felt like diving into things too much, but I must say, the idea of placing all high tiers on 1-10 for each stat based on votes really appeals to me, I think we should do that



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum
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    0 special for Luffy? Benefits of Rubber and possible CoC benefits aren't notable? Special Isn't just Hax. Also don't think specialize is the word for Zoro and CoA. He leans toward that color but he has shown nothing special with it yet.
    Maybe he deserves 1 for being rubber but blunt force immunity is going to be less and less important against Haki, hax and lethal fighters of the New World. As for CotC it's just a little too vague right now how meaningful combat applications are and if they are maybe high-end techniques he can not use yet. If he shows something against Doffy it will be different. I know Zoro hasn't shown anything with COA but that's why I said expected. Due to his forceful personality and that he's bound to have extremely strong Haki I expect him to have some very strong COA techniques up his sleeve.

    I might have underrated Luffy's non G2 speed in retrospect, I didn't think about the fact that reactions are included in the rating, he should be a 3.5 even in base given that. Notably slower than Sanji is a yes though. Almost uncomfortable placing him below Zoro to be honest now that we know the latter doesn't specialize in COO. The bigger difference from pre-skip is the boost from G2 simply not being as significant anymore. Both base Luffy and Zoro might be 3.5 (Sanji gets close to G2 because reactions i.e. COO are included).
    Last edited by Coruscation; 11-13-2014 at 08:37 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by OptimismPrime View Post
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    At first, I didn't like this thread, I thought it was kinda pointless and it felt like diving into things too much, but I must say, the idea of placing all high tiers on 1-10 for each stat based on votes really appeals to me, I think we should do that
    Second this, I can't come up with number but I love collecting and averaging data. Though, if I was in charge, I would only average the data from an elite panel because you know how diverse people's views are and some people are trolling too. If everyone is doing this, then I hope there is discussion and people actually changing their own numbers as they see fit after discussion. This is why I don't understand those vs threads with vote. Once you vote, that permanent, it doesn't matter about the discussion in the thread.

    If 1 to 10 scale is not enough, then think of it as a progressive scale and or just a normal scale but included people from other subtier if their number still within the range of 1 to 10 scale.

  7. #27
    Lanicard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    Maybe he deserves 1 for being rubber but blunt force immunity is going to be less and less important against Haki, hax and lethal fighters of the New World. As for CotC it's just a little too vague right now how meaningful combat applications are and if they are maybe high-end techniques he can not use yet. If he shows something against Doffy it will be different. I know Zoro hasn't shown anything with COA but that's why I said expected. Due to his forceful personality and that he's bound to have extremely strong Haki I expect him to have some very strong COA techniques up his sleeve.

    I might have underrated Luffy's non G2 speed in retrospect, I didn't think about the fact that reactions are included in the rating, he should be a 3.5 even in base given that. Notably slower than Sanji is a yes though. Almost uncomfortable placing him below Zoro to be honest now that we know the latter doesn't specialize in COO. The bigger difference from pre-skip is the boost from G2 simply not being as significant anymore. Both base Luffy and Zoro might be 3.5 (Sanji gets close to G2 because reactions i.e. COO are included).
    Why you gave more power to Zoro in relation to Luffy?

  8. #28
    @Coru

    I wasn't only talking about Blunt immunity but the fact it is what allows gears, weird techniques, like balloon(defense and allows him to redirect projectiles), UFO, rocket(mobility), etc.), and he is one of the few with confirmed three forms of Haki, not just assumed like Dofla and Zoro. Blunt immunity is still his unique quality regardless of its declining usefulness.


    Quote Originally Posted by OptimismPrime View Post
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    At first, I didn't like this thread, I thought it was kinda pointless and it felt like diving into things too much, but I must say, the idea of placing all high tiers on 1-10 for each stat based on votes really appeals to me, I think we should do that
    Well I'm asking for in depth opinions, leading to revisions, instead of just asking who is overall stronger.

    How would you compare Upper-High tiers?
    Last edited by Dayum; 02-03-2015 at 06:09 PM.

  9. #29
    ReXDrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayum View Post
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    ^^^^^^^^^
    I just wanted to see how people thought characters compared outside of a fight. If you want to find a consensus when more lists show upnfeel free



    He is half a point lower.



    The difference between high tiers is too massive to all list on a star system. This would only work with Top Tiers or with 1-100 point list.
    i still think thats too great for people virtually equal to each other where the speed difference even then is minimal

  10. #30
    Then make your own list where they are exactly equal. That's the purpose of this thread. Half star is a neglible difference that only shows in a drawn out battle.

    Vergo doesn't dodge much and while he's obviously going to land hits we saw him get blitz by Sanji twice, lose a quick cq scuffle with Smoker, and again he lost to Law. That is my reasoning. You are free to disagree.

    Upper High Tiers

    Yami Teach
    S- 4
    P- 3.5
    D- 1.5
    C- 3.5
    T-5
    M-1
    G- 1
    A- 1
    I- 3.5
    S*-2.5

    A 5 for strength would go to someone like Oars Jr. Has 3.5 for power since he has nothing offensive besides his physical strength. He almost broke Ace's neck but I believe that just shows the difference between people in different tiers. Low defense due to DF

    Sabo

    S-3.5
    P- 4/5(Mera)
    D- 3.5
    C- 5
    T-4
    M- 3/3.5(mera)
    G- 5
    A- 5
    I- 3.5
    S*-1.5/3.5

    Doflamingo

    S-3
    P- 3.5
    D- 3
    C- 4
    T-3
    M- 3.5
    G- 4
    A- 3
    I- 4
    S*-4


    Top Tiers(the list that will lead to the most arguments.) Don't take this too serious.
    Fujitora
    S-2.5
    P- 4.5
    D- 3
    C- 4
    T-2.5
    M-3.5
    G- 2.5
    A- 3
    I- 3
    S*- 3

    Took off some points for strength, toughness, and grace since he looks somewhat like a feeble old man and doesn't have a CQ fighting style. Want to see more gravity tricks before I raise his Special.

    Vista
    S-3
    P- 3.5
    D- 3.5
    C- 4
    T- 3
    M- 2.5
    G- 3.5
    A- 4
    I- 3
    S*-1

    Mihawk

    S-4
    P- 4.5
    D- 3.5
    C- 4.5
    T- 3.5
    M- 2.5
    G- 4
    A- 5
    I- 3
    S*- 2
    Akainu
    S- 4
    P- 4.5
    D- 3
    C- 3.5
    T- 4
    M- 3
    G- 2.5
    A- 3.5
    I- 3.5
    S*- 3.5

    Old Whitebeard/Prime

    S- 4.5/5
    P- 4.5/5
    D- 3.5/4
    C- 3.5/4.5
    T- 4.5/5
    M- 1/1.5
    G- 2/3
    A- 3.5/4.5
    I- 4
    S* -3/3.5
    Kizaru
    S- 3
    P- 4
    D- 3
    C- 4
    T- 3.5
    M- 4
    G- 3
    A- 3.5
    I- 2
    S* -3.5

    Aokiji
    S- 3
    P- 3.5
    D- 3
    C- 4
    T- 4
    M- 3.5
    G- 3
    A- 3
    I- 3.5
    S* -4
    Old Garp/Prime
    S- 4.5/5
    P- 4/4.5
    D- 3.5/4
    C- 4/4.5
    T- 4.5
    M- 3/3.5
    G- 2.5
    A- 4
    I- 2.5
    S* -1

    Combat Speed of 5 would be reserved for EoS Luffy using G2 or even Epilog Coby if he becomes a top tier for those wondering why Garp doesn't have a 5.

    Marco
    S- 3
    P- 2.5
    D- 5
    C- 4
    T- 3
    M- 4.5
    G- 4
    A- 3.5
    I- 3.5
    S*- 4

    Jozu
    S-4
    P- 3
    D- 5
    C- 3
    T- 3.5
    M-1
    G- 1.5
    A- 3
    I- 3
    S*-1
    Rayleigh/Prime
    S-3/4
    P- 3/4
    D- 3/3.5
    C- 3.5/4.5
    T-3/4
    M-2.5
    G- 3.5/4.5
    A- 4/4.5
    I- 4
    S*-3
    Last edited by Dayum; 02-03-2015 at 06:29 PM.

  11. #31
    Shameless bump.

  12. #32
    DoflaMihawk's Avatar
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    Want me to sticky this?

  13. #33
    on brief skim -

    is Rayleigh's 3 in Special solely because of his Haki? why do Mihawk and Garp have 1 in Special?

    - - - Updated - - -

    the lowest value for Defense was 3

    you might need to make your scale more strict for that stat

    - - - Updated - - -

    actually same thing for most of the stats

  14. #34
    Coruscation's Avatar
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    My idea of some top-tiers. "Special" pretty much includes lethality/debilitation here because I couldn't think of a better way to distinguish between DC and damage-dealing capabilities. I'm also not sure if Marco's regeneration should fit under defense or toughness but for me toughness is more like the Luffy esque capability to keep coming whereas defense should be the ability to shrug off hits that connect whether it's done by regen or just high durability.


    Aokiji
    Strength: 3
    Power: 3
    Defense: 3.5
    Combat speed: 3.5
    Toughness: 4
    Mobility: 3
    Grace: 3.5
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 5
    Intellect: 3.5

    Kizaru
    Strength: 3.5
    Power: 4
    Defense: 3.5
    Combat speed: 4
    Toughness: 3
    Mobility: 3.5
    Grace: 3.5
    Adeptness: 4
    Special: 3
    Intellect: 2.5

    Akainu
    Strength: 4
    Power: 3.5
    Defense: 4
    Combat speed: 3.5
    Toughness: 4.5
    Mobility: 2.5
    Grace: 3
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 4
    Intellect: 3.5

    Marco
    Strength: 3
    Power: 2.5
    Defense: 5
    Combat speed: 3.5
    Toughness: 3
    Mobility: 4
    Grace: 3.5
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 2
    Intellect: 3

    Jozu
    Strength: 4
    Power: 2.5
    Defense: 4.5
    Combat speed: 3
    Toughness: 3
    Mobility: 1.5
    Grace: 2.5
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 0
    Intellect: 3

    Sabo
    Strength: 2.5
    Power: 3
    Defense: 2.5
    Combat speed: 3.5
    Toughness: 3.5
    Mobility: 3
    Grace: 4
    Adeptness: 4
    Special: 2
    Intellect: 3.5

    Whitebeard (prime stats in parenthesis)
    Strength: 4.5 (5)
    Power: 5
    Defense: 3.5
    Combat speed: 3.5 (4)
    Toughness: 5
    Mobility: 2.5 (3)
    Grace: 3 (3.5)
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 1 (2 - point removed for sickness)
    Intellect: 3.5

    Garp
    Strength: 4.5 (5)
    Power: 3.5 (4)
    Defense: 4
    Combat speed: 4 (4.5)
    Toughness: 4.5
    Mobility: 3.5
    Grace: 3.5
    Adeptness: 4.5
    Special: 1
    Intellect: 2.5

    Rayleigh
    Strength: 3 (4)
    Power: 3 (4)
    Defense: 3 (3.5)
    Combat speed: 4 (4.5)
    Toughness: 4.5
    Mobility: 3
    Grace: 4.5
    Adeptness: 4.5
    Special: 3
    Intellect: 4
    Last edited by Coruscation; 11-23-2014 at 02:06 PM.

  15. #35
    ReXDrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    My idea of some top-tiers. "Special" pretty much includes lethality/debilitation here because I couldn't think of a better way to distinguish between DC and damage-dealing capabilities. I'm also not sure if Marco's regeneration should fit under defense or toughness but for me toughness is more like the Luffy esque capability to keep coming whereas defense should be the ability to shrug off hits that connect whether it's done by regen or just high durability.


    Aokiji
    Strength: 3
    Power: 3
    Defense: 3.5
    Combat speed: 3.5
    Toughness: 4
    Mobility: 3
    Grace: 3.5
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 5
    Intellect: 3.5

    Kizaru
    Strength: 3.5
    Power: 4
    Defense: 3.5
    Combat speed: 4
    Toughness: 3
    Mobility: 3.5
    Grace: 3.5
    Adeptness: 4
    Special: 3
    Intellect: 2.5

    Akainu
    Strength: 4
    Power: 3.5
    Defense: 4
    Combat speed: 3.5
    Toughness: 4.5
    Mobility: 2.5
    Grace: 3
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 4
    Intellect: 3.5

    Marco
    Strength: 3
    Power: 2.5
    Defense: 5
    Combat speed: 3.5
    Toughness: 3
    Mobility: 4
    Grace: 3.5
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 2
    Intellect: 3

    Jozu
    Strength: 4
    Power: 2.5
    Defense: 4.5
    Combat speed: 3
    Toughness: 3
    Mobility: 1.5
    Grace: 2.5
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 0
    Intellect: 3

    Sabo
    Strength: 2.5
    Power: 3
    Defense: 2.5
    Combat speed: 3.5
    Toughness: 3.5
    Mobility: 3
    Grace: 4
    Adeptness: 4
    Special: 2
    Intellect: 3.5

    Whitebeard
    Strength: 4.5
    Power: 5
    Defense: 3.5
    Combat speed: 4
    Toughness: 5
    Mobility: 2.5
    Grace: 3
    Adeptness: 3.5
    Special: 2
    Intellect: 3.5

    Garp
    Strength: 4.5
    Power: 4
    Defense: 4
    Combat speed: 4.5
    Toughness: 4.5
    Mobility: 3.5
    Grace: 3.5
    Adeptness: 4.5
    Special: 1
    Intellect: 2.5
    can you explain the 0.5 differences in combat speed existing between aokiji/kizaru and garp/wb as close to each other as they are

  16. #36
    Coruscation's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty obvious that Kizaru/Garp should be faster than Aokiji/WB. Just a matter of fighting styles. Aokiji is graceful, agile and extremely lethal/debilitating. Kizaru is raw power and speed.

  17. #37
    ReXDrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    I think it's pretty obvious that Kizaru/Garp should be faster than Aokiji/WB. Just a matter of fighting styles.
    are you referring to combat speed or movement speed

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    I think it's pretty obvious that Kizaru/Garp should be faster than Aokiji/WB. Just a matter of fighting styles. Aokiji is graceful, agile and extremely lethal/debilitating. Kizaru is raw power and speed.
    kizaru being "raw power and speed" means he delivers his attacks/can punch, kick etc faster than aokiji?

  18. #38
    Coruscation's Avatar
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    Combat. That is what the stat is about.

    Yes. Kizaru is more focused on close combat and attack speed than Aokiji.

  19. #39
    ReXDrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    Combat. That is what the stat is about.

    Yes. Kizaru is more focused on close combat and attack speed than Aokiji.
    how big is the difference. I just cant see the difference being very noticeable at all between people of this level.

    Kizarus movement speed obviously exceeds that of say WB, but WB will still be able to respond to his attacks because his combat speed is equal/superior. Ignoring appalling matchups if a fight will go to high-extreme diff chances are the fighters combat speed is pretty much equal. Thats just how i see it unless i define combat speed differently

  20. #40
    Coruscation's Avatar
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    I don't see any reason why differences have to be super small. I would expect G2 Luffy to have clearly superior combat speed to most if not all Supernovas or Zoro but they can still have high/extreme diff fights with one another because they have strengths in other areas. There is no reason why speed should become an essentially nonexistent factor in battles when other stats don't.

    Combat speed is attack + reaction speed. WB has great reflexes but doesn't focus on fast attacks like Kizaru to do, or expectedly being extremely fast in CQC like Garp.

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