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  1. #21

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    Would not have Moubu and Kanmei in A+ unless this is purely based on strength. On overall ability, there's no way they rank with Ouki and Renpa, neither does Houken for that matter. Based on overall, Ouki, Renpa and Riboku (presuming he has at least reasonable strength) are worthy of A+ from those we've seen in the manga. Tou and the Duke are the next closest. By virtue of hype, the other 6 great generals of Qin, the 3 Zhao generals and those of similar status are A+ candidates too.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PZ View Post
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    Would not have Moubu and Kanmei in A+ unless this is purely based on strength. On overall ability, there's no way they rank with Ouki and Renpa, neither does Houken for that matter. Based on overall, Ouki, Renpa and Riboku (presuming he has at least reasonable strength) are worthy of A+ from those we've seen in the manga. By virtue of hype, the other 6 great generals of Qin, the 3 Zhao generals and those of similar status are A+ candidates too.
    This one is completely strength based, but there will be one on overall abillity if enough people want it.

  3. #23
    It's very unlikely for Bajio (even in beast mode) to be at Yotanwa's ballpark. Tou himself which was stated to be Ouki's equal actually belongs to A tier. I'd place Beast Bajio at best on A-. If we go by pure strength he could compete with Rinko in a duel I guess, being at higher end of the subtier.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerreiraDaSilva View Post
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    It's very unlikely for Bajio (even in beast mode) to be at Yotanwa's ballpark. Tou himself which was stated to be Ouki's equal actually belongs to A tier. I'd place Beast Bajio at best on A-. If we go by pure strength he could compete with Rinko in a duel I guess, being at higher end of the subtier.
    Why is that unlikely? Beast mode Baijo is far far stronger than base baijo, who should be about equal to Shin.

  5. #25
    Bajio was undoubtably below Yotanwa in their flashback. She's the ruler of a group which holds the martial proficiency as absolute. They were never stated to be equals or close in power, just that she's the only one which could defeat him. Obviously they are relatively close, but if we separate Tou from Ouki which were stated a few times as equals then it's very unlikely for Bajio to be at A while we keep Yotanwa there. He's A- material.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerreiraDaSilva View Post
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    Bajio was undoubtably below Yotanwa in their flashback. She's the ruler of a group which holds the martial proficiency as absolute. They were never stated to be equals or close in power, just that she's the only one which could defeat him. Obviously they are relatively close, but if we separate Tou from Ouki which were stated a few times as equals then it's very unlikely for Bajio to be at A while we keep Yotanwa there. He's A- material.
    Yotanwa is superior to base baijo in every way by a decent bit, so ofcourse she wouldn't say he was equal to her. But we're not talking about Base baijo's ranking, we're talking about beast baijo. If we are powerscaling than beast baijo should be stronger than Yotanwa because he was able to run circles around a creature with nearly peak physical strength. The fight that Yotanwa and Baijo had can't be used as an argument because of how long ago it happened.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You would have to completely ignore stats to think that beast baijo is not equal to or stronger than yotanwa.

  7. #27
    Type 1 DoflaMihawk's Avatar
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    Opinions on Beast Bajio:

    A: Allara,
    A-: Ferreira,
    B+: convict,

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Allara View Post
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    His fight with Yotanwa is completely irrelevant because of how long ago it took place. The only way we would know rather or not he improved faster than her is by comparing his current strength to hers, so that's a mute point. Also she was trained by the mountain people when they fought, and we can assume that he was that powerful without any training. An untrained person will improve drastically compared to someone who already has decent skill. There is no evidence supporting your claim that Tou would be able fodderize or even defeat Rankai without high difficulty. Stats are not an end all argument, but they do tell us where the author wanted to go with his characters. The author would've lowered Rankai's stats in the latest release, if he wanted the GGs to be clearly stronger than him. Which he has done before. Beast Baijo shouldn't be above A because of things like weight, but he's clearly above Kanki level characters.
    No the only fight which occurred between them is not a moot point. Open your eyes and analyze the purpose of that scene. That scene was purposefully put in by the author to highlight Yotanwa's power but it also served to highlight Bajio by mentioning how in his beast form he was the only one who could ever scratch her helmet. There is no evidence whatsoever that Bajio caught up. In fact, he had been suppressing his base instincts for quite a long time. When he enters that mode his technique and training gives way to his instincts so that is in fact not a strong case. Looking at it from a story perspective, Yotanwa is the leader of the mountain peoples whose strength and potential was said to be unsurpassed in generations since the elder tribesmen could remember and she always leads her battles. Of course she is beyond Bajio this shouldn't even be a question.

    The author only lowers stats if individuals have gotten weaker over time (he mentioned as such). He doesn't lower them because they don't gel well compared to later characters. There is no evidence Rankai has weakened so his stat has remained the same. Yet just look at his fight with even Shunmen keeping up and wounding him, and you will see that Tou calibre fighters would decimate him because of his stupidity and lack of speed.

    ^And as for beast Bajio I am fine with putting him in A- as he has bound to have improved since last we saw him. But in Yotanwa's tier he is definitely not.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by convict View Post
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    No the only fight which occurred between them is not a moot point. Open your eyes and analyze the purpose of that scene. That scene was purposefully put in by the author to highlight Yotanwa's power but it also served to highlight Bajio by mentioning how in his beast form he was he only one who could ever scratch her helmet. There is no evidence whatsoever that Bajio caught up. In fact, he had been suppressing his base instincts for quite a long time. When he enters that mode his technique and training gives way to his instincts so that is in fact not a strong case. Looking at it from a story perspective, Yotanwa is the leader of the mountain peoples whose strength and potential was said to be unsurpassed in generations since the elder tribesmen could remember and she always leads her battles. Of course she is beyond Bajio this shouldn't even be a question.
    There fight is irrelevant because of how long ago it took place. Yotanwa is superior to Baijo in every way by a decent bit, so his overall strength is far from hers.however, The power he has in beast mode is more than enough to place him in the same tier as Yotanwa. Being one of the strongest leaders the mountain folk ever had doesn't make her stronger than Baijo's strongest form. Even if Baijo was houken level she would still be the leader of the mountain folk because of her leadership abillity and intellect. By that logic you could say that Sei>Shin because he's going to be the greatest king in the last 400 years.

    The author only lowers stats if individuals have gotten weaker over time (he mentioned as such). He doesn't lower them because they don't gel well compared to later characters. There is no evidence Rankai has weakened so his stat has remained the same. Yet just look at his fight with even Shunmen keeping up and wounding him, and you will see that Tou calibre fighters would decimate him because of his stupidity and lack of speed.

    ^And as for beast Bajio I am fine with putting him in A- as he has bound to have improved since last we saw him. But in Yotanwa's tier he is definitely not.
    The author lowered the stats of ketsu without him getting any less politically savvy. Why? because he wasn't as relevant to the story as the author originally planned for him to be. Base baijo is equal to base shin, and his alpha(beastmode) is a much bigger boost than shin's. A tou level fighter would defeat Rankai because of speed and intellect, but they wouldn't do any better than beast mode baijo did.

    Do you really think that Rinko could keep up with beast mode baijo? He got defeated by an Alpha shin who's base strength stat was only 88.

    Edit.

    Shumen is base shin level
    Last edited by Heart; 02-11-2014 at 07:38 PM.

  10. #30
    As far as I know, the mountain tribes values strength the most. Also, before 'base Bajio' even exists, there was only beast Bajio - and Yotanwa defeated it. Since then he hold his beast self back, and we have zero clue about how much of a boost it actually represents.

    You're supposing that a guy which lacks solid feats and last time we saw were stated to be second to Yotanwa to be on her level, all this while people which got outright stated as equals actually aren't placed together. You're ignoring the most reasonable scenario.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerreiraDaSilva View Post
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    As far as I know, the mountain tribes values strength the most. Also, before 'base Bajio' even exists, there was only beast Bajio - and Yotanwa defeated it. Since then he hold his beast self back, and we have zero clue about how much of a boost it actually represents.

    You're supposing that a guy which lacks solid feats and last time we saw were stated to be second to Yotanwa to be on her level, all this while people which got outright stated as equals actually aren't placed together. You're ignoring the most reasonable scenario.
    He doesn´t lack solid feats. He ran circles around a nearly superhuman beast. We know that it boosted his strength enough for him to crush an opponent that would normally low difficult him. Baijo could very well be stronger than yotanwa in beast mode. Again, how does yotanwa defeating Baijo in the far past make her stronger than current Baijo?

    I´m pretty sure Yotanwa was born into her position.

  12. #32

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    I'd have bajio in A- for sure, he's not worthy of that A tier, but could certainly compete with those in A-.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Allara View Post
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    Do you really think that Rinko could keep up with beast mode baijo? He got defeated by an Alpha shin who's base strength stat was only 88.
    The very fact that a 88 strength Shin was able to defeat 93's Rinko is hint that you shouldn't solely rely on this stats to make a judgement. As far as we know, Rankai is a raw strength type of guy and Bajio didn't overwhelmed him physically.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerreiraDaSilva View Post
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    The very fact that a 88 strength Shin was able to defeat 93's Rinko is hint that you shouldn't solely rely on this stats to make a judgement. As far as we know, Rankai is a raw strength type of guy and Bajio didn't overwhelmed him physically.
    No it doesn´t because Shin has plus Alpha by the side of his name. No one in A minus would be able to keep up with beast mode baijo.

    Edit. Baijo doesn´t need to beat him in an arm wrestling match to have clearly overwhelmed him. Before going into beast mode he couldn´t even cut him.
    Last edited by Heart; 02-11-2014 at 10:57 PM.

  15. #35
    Why exactly ? Shin's boosts should most likely be more impressive than Bajio, which has a strength at 90..

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerreiraDaSilva View Post
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    Why exactly ? Shin's boosts should most likely be more impressive than Bajio, which has a strength at 90..
    Baijo´s boost allowed him to crush someone who could pretty much fodderize him before the boost while Shin´s allowed him to fight almost evenly with someone he could give a mid difficulty fight anyway. Which power boost is more impressive?

    They both have a base strength of 90, so I'm not sure of what your point is.
    Last edited by Heart; 02-12-2014 at 12:00 AM.

  17. #37
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    I personally think people are looking a bit too much on the strength stat to judge how strong a char is overall.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Allara View Post
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    Baijo´s boost allowed him to crush someone who could pretty much fodderize him before the boost while Shin´s allowed him to fight almost evenly with someone he could give a mid difficulty fight anyway. Which power boost is more impressive?

    They both have a base strength of 90, so I'm not sure of what your point is.
    Nah man. Rankai wasn't fodderizing anyone before Bajio's release nor Bajio crushed anyone after neither. You're overrating Bajio too much solely because he was able to keep a 99 strength guy at bay. Bajio didn't overwhelmed Rankai not even once, and Rankai himself is only a monster in raw power, he didn't display any kind of feats besides endurance and strength ones, while Bajio didn't directly clashed with him in this matters as well.

    Despite of having inferior strength, guys at A would destroy Rankai. Bajio wouldn't.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerreiraDaSilva View Post
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    Nah man. Rankai wasn't fodderizing anyone before Bajio's release nor Bajio crushed anyone after neither. You're overrating Bajio too much solely because he was able to keep a 99 strength guy at bay. Bajio didn't overwhelmed Rankai not even once, and Rankai himself is only a monster in raw power, he didn't display any kind of feats besides endurance and strength ones, while Bajio didn't directly clashed with him in this matters as well.

    Despite of having inferior strength, guys at A would destroy Rankai. Bajio wouldn't.
    Baijo shredded Rankai after going into beast mode. He completely blitzed him and had the power to penetrate his skin. Rankai was going to give up before seikiyou spoke. You can argue that this is because Shuumen and Taijifu helped, but the end result would be the same rather or not they joined the fight. It would simply take a bit longer.

    I never said that he was fodderizing Baijo, but that he could. I doubt Baijo would even be able to cut him without going to beast mode, and even if he could he would've gotten grabbed or swatted away in the same matter that Shin did. There is no reason to believe that an A ranked fighter would do any better than Baijo. They would blitz him and cut him apart causing him to quit in the same way that Baijo did.
    Last edited by Heart; 02-12-2014 at 12:50 AM.

  20. #40
    There fight is irrelevant because of how long ago it took place. Yotanwa is superior to Baijo in every way by a decent bit, so his overall strength is far from hers.however, The power he has in beast mode is more than enough to place him in the same tier as Yotanwa. Being one of the strongest leaders the mountain folk ever had doesn't make her stronger than Baijo's strongest form. Even if Baijo was houken level she would still be the leader of the mountain folk because of her leadership abillity and intellect. By that logic you could say that Sei>Shin because he's going to be the greatest king in the last 400 years.
    No it is different. Sei has generals to conquer other territories. She conquers them herself at the fore. Just like how it was her who fought the strongest member of the Bird Fang tribe. She is more akin to Ouki or Renpa in that sense. Besides that you are just repeating yourself. We have both stated our minds on the matter so lets leave it at that.

    The author lowered the stats of ketsu without him getting any less politically savvy. Why? because he wasn't as relevant to the story as the author originally planned for him to be.
    The author directly stated that he decreases stats if individuals become weaker over the course of the story. he never said a thing about randomly changing his statistics for individuals. I choose to take his word for it. Ketsu by the end was emotionally traumatized. I can see his savvy decreasing because of his mentality.

    Do you really think that Rinko could keep up with beast mode baijo? He got defeated by an Alpha shin who's base strength stat was only 88.
    Yes I think the guy who can wound Ouki would be able to beat or at least match Bajio. Shin's emotional boost is unsurpassed in the series. He goes from getting dominated to dominating. Your reliance on stats to base your decisions leaves any semblance of agreement between us nigh impossible.

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