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  1. #41
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    I just think people need to ask themselves this question. If Jozu, Vista, or Lucky Rou, went an attacked Garp head-on, what would the result be? Because if your answer is they would be one-shotted, then Prime Chinjao belongs in A-. But if they don't get one-shotted, Prime Chinjao belongs in B+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    I know there are a lot of thoughts going around about it not being prime Garp and whatnot but I think Oda would have made it explicit if that was the case. Most people are going to look at the scene and simply think "Holy crap, this is Garp's legendary punch".
    Except Garp had to train in order to defeat and flatten Chinjao's head. That right there should imply Garp wasn't at his Prime.


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  2. #42
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    I just think people need to ask themselves this question. If Jozu, Vista, or Lucky Rou, went an attacked Garp head-on, what would the result be? Because if your answer is they would be one-shotted, then Prime Chinjao belongs in A-. But if they don't get one-shotted, Prime Chinjao belongs in B+.
    Again, though, you have to keep in mind that it was a "win or die" type situation. Both fighters went in at full power and only one could win. There are a lot of situations like that in this series where you can't simply chalk it up to the loser getting "one-shotted". Only reason to actually doubt it is that we're so attuned to the idea that punches shouldn't do that much damage. I think that has as good a chance of any as being a mistake on our part though and not something we should cling to feverishly.

    Except Garp had to train in order to defeat and flatten Chinjao's head. That right there should imply Garp wasn't at his Prime.
    Roger & Whitebeard were in their golden age several years prior to that incident. Garp should have become strong by fighting Roger so I don't see why he wouldn't be up there too. Maybe it was simply a long time since they met like someone said.

  3. #43
    Here argument that Corus made that I thought had merit on why Garp could have been close to his Prime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    Then wouldn't it make more sense for Chinjao to be a high level B+ character?
    Due to these two reason, I think it makes more sense to place him in A- instead of B+

    -the Garp that nearly killed him was close to Garp in his prime

    -his powerful weapon was mostly destroyed,his spirit broken, quit as a pirate and turning into an old man should not only make him one subtier weaker
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    Again, though, you have to keep in mind that it was a "win or die" type situation. Both fighters went in at full power and only one could win. There are a lot of situations like that in this series where you can't simply chalk it up to the loser getting "one-shotted". Only reason to actually doubt it is that we're so attuned to the idea that punches shouldn't do that much damage. I think that may be a mistake on our part though and not something we should cling to feverishly.
    I can see what you mean by that. If it was someone like Mihawk vs Vista and the sword damage would be enough to kill someone, we may not be having this conversation. This definitely does bring in an interesting debate since you're right, we've never seen fists or blunt damage caused this kind of crazy damage before.


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  5. #45
    What makes the most sense to me is simply that they hadn't met for a while, a few years perhaps, and Chinjao just didn't grow as much as Garp. Garp pushed himself to a solid A- by that time whereas Chinjao only progressed to being a very, very high level B+. Hence the embarrassing oneshot.

    Quote Originally Posted by MM View Post
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    Due to these two reason, I think it makes more sense to place him in A- instead of B+

    -the Garp that nearly killed him was close to Garp in his prime

    -his powerful weapon was mostly destroyed,his spirit broken, quit as a pirate and turning into an old man should not only make him one subtier weaker
    - So? Garp being somewhat close to his prime doesn't have anything to do with how strong that Chinjao was. People have different growth rates.

    - That really has nothing to do with this, I'm talking about prime Chinjao.
    Last edited by Pimp of Pimps; 09-12-2013 at 10:26 PM.

  6. #46
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    we've never seen fists or blunt damage caused this kind of crazy damage before.
    Yeah and what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be dismissive toward the idea that Garp can do that cause he's mf'ing Garp the effing Fist who nearly punched Gold Roger to death. I mean does that sound unlike something Oda would do?

    And for reference, I -absolutely- see the other A- people getting overwhelmed if they try an all-or-nothing clash like that with prime Garp. It's just the whole knocked out issue that's iffy solely because we think of punches as weak in general.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    Yeah and what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be dismissive toward the idea that Garp can do that cause he's mf'ing Garp the effing Fist who nearly punched Gold Roger to death. I mean does that sound unlike something Oda would do?
    That's not a very convincing argument. Garp being Garp doesn't change anything here. He managed to do what he did solely because he was that much stronger than Chinjao.

  8. #48
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    That's a close-minded perspective. We can not be that confident of exactly how strong Oda means Garp's legendary punches to be or if he even thinks of the one-shot or not issue anywhere near the same way we do.

  9. #49
    The voting is still 7 to 3 in favor for Chinjoa being in A-, isn't that a majority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp of Pimps View Post
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    - So? Garp being somewhat close to his prime doesn't have anything to do with how strong that Chinjao was. People have different growth rates.

    - That really has nothing to do with this, I'm talking about prime Chinjao.
    Becasue Garp being able to wreck his head that badly would make more sense if he was that much stronger.

    Becasue it shows that despite losing a massive amount of his power through numerous factors, he still is a powerhouse(relatively speaking) that could fight with current Luffy. If he is that strong now, his prime he would have been waaay stronger.
    Last edited by MM; 09-12-2013 at 10:41 PM.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    That's a close-minded perspective. We can not be that confident of exactly how strong Oda means Garp's legendary punches to be or if he even thinks of the one-shot or not issue anywhere near the same way we do.

    It's a reasonable perspective. Granted, we can't be sure of exactly how strong Oda means Garp's punches to be but that shouldn't stop us from going with the much more likelier and sensible option. It makes much more sense that Garp was simply that much stronger than Chinjao at the time (he mentioned how hard he trained and Chinjao, who clashed with Garp in the past, felt completely confident in beadbutting Garp's fist) as opposed to the remote possibility that Garp is that big of an exception to how effective blunt force is. What reason is there to think Garp's punches will be that much stronger than attacks from brawlers of his same general level?

  11. #51
    I'd be more willing to put Chinjao in B+ if Doflamingo wasn't in A-.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by MM View Post
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    Becasue Garp being able to wreck his head that badly would make more sense if he was that much stronger.

    Becasue it shows that despite losing a massive amount of his power through numerous factors, he still is a powerhouse(relatively speaking) that could fight with current Luffy. If he is that strong now, his prime he would have been waaay stronger.
    You lost me. You were saying one thing and now you're saying something else. I'm confused why you want prime Chinjao in A- when you agree there was a big difference between himself and Garp.

    One sub-tier is a massive, massive, massive difference in strength.

  13. #53
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    The voting is still 7 to 3 in favor for Chinjoa being in A-, isn't that a majority?
    Everyone who would want to vote may not have voted yet. Some people may be swayed to change their vote by arguments. Personally I think we should try to discuss contentious issues for a while. If people would rather prefer we go with the majority opinion quickly we'll do that. What's the consensus on how to decide placements?

    What reason is there to think Garp's punches will be that much stronger than attacks from brawlers of his same general level?
    They are the punches that nearly killed the Pirate King. I don't remember any brawlers on Garp's level? I mean honestly, this is the arc in which we saw the King Punch which pretty much fucked logic by saying a dude can simply punch that insanely hard for whatever reason despite otherwise actually being weak. Garp is much easier to buy than that.

    Like I said, I wouldn't personally bat an eyelid if Garp delivering his hardest hit onto a headbutting Vista's head knocked him out. Can you tell me with a straight face you consider that an outrage and in no way a reasonable possibility all because of what we think we know about top tiers now? A full power punch is probably the strongest move Garp has and he's the 3rd strongest person in the verse. It's very believable that Oda will have his punches simply be that powerful.
    Last edited by Coruscation; 09-12-2013 at 11:01 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    Like I said, I wouldn't personally bat an eyelid if Garp delivering his hardest hit onto a headbutting Vista's head knocked him out. Can you tell me with a straight face you consider that an outrage and in no way a reasonable possibility all because of what we think we know about top tiers now? A full power punch is probably the strongest move Garp has and he's the 3rd strongest person in the verse. It's very believable that Oda will have his punches simply be that powerful.
    It's hard to compare the two. Chinjao's head was famed for its unbelievable strength and durability, while Vista's head was relatively normal.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaros 536 View Post
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    So, let me get this straight.

    Garp back then could treat Jozu or Vista the way he treated Chinjao?
    Vergo who is in the same sub tier as Smoker has the power needed to smash through his hardened Jutte, and whack him in the chest hard enough to not only finish him off but bend the metal bars behind him. Simply put if Vergo hit him with that attack upside his head, he would of been knocked the fuck out. I said that to establish that two fighters around the same level are capable of knocking the other one out.

    So with that being said yes Garp back then(going with the assumption he was A or solid top tier at that time which i think he was) aka a Sub tier above Jozu/Vista can knock Jozu or Vista out if they try to head butt him IMO. Now he won't be doing this with a casual attack mind you, but i think he can do it.

    Edit: Really this entire discussion hinders on two main things.

    1. How Strong you think Garp was when he defeated Chinjao.

    2. How much weaker you think Chinjao got over the Years along with his head being deformed.

    I personally think Chinjao lost a shit ton of base stats over the years. His dream was crushed, his head was deformed and he quit being a pirate 30 years ago. So for me thats enough to drop him down to B rank where he currently is based on his performance against Luffy.
    Last edited by Donquixote Doflamingo; 09-12-2013 at 11:26 PM.



  16. #56
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    Good point with Vergo/Smoker. Sanji can be mentioned as well. Blunt force if properly reinforced with enough Haki, skill and strength can be quite powerful. Let's entertain the notion of Smoker taking that Oni-Take straight to his skull instead. Or preferably someone weaker than Smoker doing so since Garp is substantially above Chinjao whereas Smoker and Vergo are close. It's certainly not hard to see him getting knocked out at all. Now add in the fact that if Vergo is exceptional, Garp is without a doubt even more so and we've pretty much solved the puzzle.

    It's hard to compare the two. Chinjao's head was famed for its unbelievable strength and durability, while Vista's head was relatively normal.
    Well, it's not necessarily that simple either. Though it increased his power it also made him more vulnerable should someone be crazy enough to actually match and overpower it. That's how I see the issue at least. Getting one's head pushed in like that must be painful beyond what can even be imagined by us normal head people and I'm sure it contributed to the KO.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    They are the punches that nearly killed the Pirate King. I don't remember any brawlers on Garp's level? I mean honestly, this is the arc in which we saw the King Punch which pretty much fucked logic by saying a dude can simply punch that insanely hard for whatever reason despite otherwise actually being weak. Garp is much easier to buy than that.

    Like I said, I wouldn't personally bat an eyelid if Garp delivering his hardest hit onto a headbutting Vista's head knocked him out. Can you tell me with a straight face you consider that an outrage and in no way a reasonable possibility all because of what we think we know about top tiers now? A full power punch is probably the strongest move Garp has and he's the 3rd strongest person in the verse. It's very believable that Oda will have his punches simply be that powerful.
    So? Does that somehow give us a reason to think his regular punches will be a ton stronger than a punch from a brawler of his level should be? It doesn't. We have absolutely no reason to think it might be the case. Being really strong doesn't justify having a stronger attack than you should have. Only thing that would justify Garp's punches being so much stronger than his strength indicates is if he had something like Gear 3rd or King's Punch which allows him to generate power beyond what his physical strength should let him.

    Why are you talking about Vista? He's a lot weaker than Garp and his head isn't his main weapon, if he ever even uses it as a weapon at all. Not a very good comparison. Completely different from Garp knocking out someone of his general level by attacking that person's main weapon. It's the difference between Sanji knocking Franky out by hitting his head vs Sanji knocking Jimbei out by kicking his fist while punching.

  18. #58
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    Yeah it really does if you're not close-minded. Please tone down this "should" business a little. It's so unproductive. We're not in a position to go making statements like that about the punches of the man who went down in legend for nearly punching the strongest man that ever lived to death. I think you're also wrong beyond that because Vergo showed us that blunt force can be very dangerous, to characters on his own level. Garp being substantially above Chinjao plus even more exceptional than Vergo when it comes to dealing such damage takes care of the 'problem' pretty well. It can be compared to Vergo using "Oni Take" on say, Cavendish. I have no problems believing he could OHKO him with a skull blow.

    Because... he is an A- character which makes him a good comparison? I thought that would be obvious :/ Once Garp broke through and pushed his skull bone in Chinjao was hardly getting any protection from it anymore. Garp simply caved his head in. It's the same reason Luffy did so much damage.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscation View Post
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    Well, it's not necessarily that simple either. Though it increased his power it also made him more vulnerable should someone be crazy enough to actually match and overpower it. That's how I see the issue at least. Getting one's head pushed in like that must be painful beyond what can even be imagined by us normal head people and I'm sure it contributed to the KO.
    Yeah, it's not that simple either, so it's a shaky example to begin with. Shoving a normal head, which probably severely lacking firepower, into a strong punch from Garp should make one much more vulnerable than shoving an incredibly hard head with incredible offensive power into Garp's fist. If you were to compare Chinjao's head to Vista's head relative to their bodies, it would be similar to the difference between a completely healthy head and a head with severe brittle bone disease.

    That being said, I'm still for Chinjao is A-.

  20. #60
    We have to keep in mind that indeed Chinjao's head is his main weapon, and whats the common thing that happens when people get knocked unconscious...They receive some type of major head trauma which chinjao did.

    Vergo was able to crack Sanjis main weapon(his leg) with one kick, but even if he shattered his leg completely i highly doubt Sanji would be knocked out.....But if his skull got shattered thats a different story.

    If you want to make a different comparison i see Jozu fist getting broken if he tries to play bloody knuckles with garp, i see Marcos leg being snapped in half if he tries it as well. Not casually of course but with a serious attack.



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