PDA

View Full Version : The Usage of Statements in Determing Stats



Kane
11-05-2015, 05:00 PM
So statements within fiction are often used to hype up characters and whatnot and this thread is to discuss whther or not these statenments should be taken at face value or not.

I''m talking:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111174087/4052371-cell_powers_his_solar_kamehameha.jpg
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/2/29816/788728-descarga__1_.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111227367/4534479-simg000010.jpg
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/3346/563420-17.jpg

Should exceptions be made in some cases if these statements fit certain criteria? Like fitting within the context of the verse well or it being shown they would destroy it all in one go instead of over time?

Y
11-05-2015, 05:01 PM
It's entirely context based. You'll have to judge each instances itself. Generalization just doesnt work here.

Kane
11-05-2015, 05:02 PM
It's entirely context based. You'll have to judge each instances itself. Generalization just doesnt work here.
Some have similar contexts yet opposite reactions.

Nobody ever said Saitama was planet level despite the fact its clear as day it makes sense.

Meanwhile everybody said that Jirou was large planet as soon as Setsuno warned him not to smash the earth.

R
11-05-2015, 05:16 PM
fair point

- - - Updated - - -

there should be differences between

a) mere statements without any backup

b) statemens with assumed / context backup

c) statements with backup

for example:

a) haku is LS in naruto part 1 -> statement without backup to prove. it also was never mentioned again in the series

b) cocos spear which is "almost speed of light" in one scene and in a later scene being dodged

c) someone bust or destroys someting in the actual plot which then gets considered to be at least "a town" or "a mountain"

Ichiryuu
11-05-2015, 06:50 PM
Some have similar contexts yet opposite reactions.

Nobody ever said Saitama was planet level despite the fact its clear as day it makes sense.

Meanwhile everybody said that Jirou was large planet as soon as Setsuno warned him not to smash the earth.

This is because of 2 reasons.

1. The Disciples were both hinted at and hyped to be at this level for most of the series, it really wasn't "suddenly", just so much statements/hype that it somewhat gives more confirmation.
2. Context, foreshadowing, hype has usually always been accurate in the series.

Other than that it fits the power system in the Torikoverse.

Aegon Targaryen
11-05-2015, 06:54 PM
If the statement is further down the line supported by feats, or implied it could happen via a weakened version of the character performing a similar scaled down feat, then it would be a viable method.

Kane
11-05-2015, 08:15 PM
fair point

- - - Updated - - -

there should be differences between

a) mere statements without any backup

b) statemens with assumed / context backup

c) statements with backup

for example:

a) haku is LS in naruto part 1 -> statement without backup to prove. it also was never mentioned again in the series

b) cocos spear which is "almost speed of light" in one scene and in a later scene being dodged

c) someone bust or destroys someting in the actual plot which then gets considered to be at least "a town" or "a mountain"
Don't see how Coco's spear fits B

This is because of 2 reasons.

1. The Disciples were both hinted at and hyped to be at this level for most of the series, it really wasn't "suddenly", just so much statements/hype that it somewhat gives more confirmation.
2. Context, foreshadowing, hype has usually always been accurate in the series.

Other than that it fits the power system in the Torikoverse.
Fair enough, the same could be said for Saitama.

If the statement is further down the line supported by feats, or implied it could happen via a weakened version of the character performing a similar scaled down feat, then it would be a viable method.
That would make Cell's statement viable.

Dellinger
11-05-2015, 09:06 PM
Jirou has a planet level feat though.

WB's statement now..Hmm well he can really wreck the world with his incredible power but actually smash it in one hit?No.

Kane
11-05-2015, 09:08 PM
Planet is different from large planet.

R
11-05-2015, 09:25 PM
Don't see how Coco's spear fits B



so you are okay with the triple reference points then?

Dellinger
11-05-2015, 09:26 PM
Planet is different from large planet.

That wasn't Jirou at full power.

Mercantilist
11-05-2015, 09:56 PM
So Whitebeard is large planetary level?

Hah, no.

Rax
11-05-2015, 10:18 PM
Multiple signs of statement from reliable sources and things as to not contradict it.

Example:

WB's hype could easily be about being enough to destroy the world Government seeing as they see the people who started the WG as the people who started the world.

Black Leg Sanji
11-05-2015, 10:20 PM
I honestly think they shouldn't be taken seriously unless feats suggest otherwise.

Makenzye
11-05-2015, 10:25 PM
It's entirely context based. You'll have to judge each instances itself. Generalization just doesnt work here.
This is the best way to handle statements.


Some have similar contexts yet opposite reactions.

Nobody ever said Saitama was planet level despite the fact its clear as day it makes sense.

Meanwhile everybody said that Jirou was large planet as soon as Setsuno warned him not to smash the earth.

I know some of us, me at least, took it as Jiro being something of a continent wrecker. Not wanting to hit the ground because of the wide scale destruction and chaos he can cause, and not that he has to destroy a planet on impact.

Epicnessbeyond
11-05-2015, 11:09 PM
Cell's statement is valid. No reason to think he is right or just false hype. It even works with the recent showings in DB Super.

Makenzye
11-05-2015, 11:24 PM
Cell was nowhere near the strength of Super. Cell was an arrogant blowhard who, like Vegeta he got more than a bit of personality from, was prone to exaggeration and overestimation of his own abilities.

WILD
11-05-2015, 11:31 PM
This is the best way to handle statements.



I know some of us, me at least, took it as Jiro being something of a continent wrecker. Not wanting to hit the ground because of the wide scale destruction and chaos he can cause, and not that he has to destroy a planet on impact.
That seems unlikely considering how many times it's been stated the disciples could destroy the planet and that he managed to stop its rotation in a severely weakened state. That feat in itself was calced at planet level

Egress
11-05-2015, 11:41 PM
I really don't have a problem with Star-busting Cell tbh, since he was the strongest in the series at that point and the context was to outline that he gained immense power compared to his non-super form (who was large planet level+). I do question his reliability, and his new arrogance from being significantly more powerful may explain overestimation of his own ki levels. Also seeing as how some word-of-mouth claims weren't proven until the next arc, I wouldn't be surprised if Cell was overhyping himself. Decide this by consensus (though it has already been generally agreed that it was hyperbole).

Toriko's statement is context-approved, fits with other things we know, and relevant to the plot.

Saitama - This page suggests that a truly bloodlusted Saitama is planet level, which I believe since we know that a single serious blow from him is continental level+. At the same time, I do not accept it because I argue that his anger may lead him to make hyperbole claims to relief himself of his stress. Similar to "I'm going to kill someone/wreck something if blahblah doesn't get better"

WB - I will not be surprised if he does wreck the world, knowing his top-tier status and his quake abilities. But like all "planet-busting" claims, it's possible that he can only accomplish that through an extended period of time, and what's being destroyed is not the entire planet itself but rather human civilization as they know it.

Kane
11-05-2015, 11:48 PM
I really don't have a problem with Star-busting Cell tbh, since he was the strongest in the series at that point and the context was to outline that he gained immense power compared to his non-super form (who was large planet level+). I do question his reliability, and his new arrogance from being significantly more powerful may explain overestimation of his own ki levels. Also seeing as how some word-of-mouth claims weren't proven until the next arc, I wouldn't be surprised if Cell was overhyping himself. Decide this by consensus (though it has already been generally agreed that it was hyperbole).

Toriko's statement is context-approved, fits with other things we know, and relevant to the plot.

Saitama - This page suggests that a truly bloodlusted Saitama is planet level, which I believe since we know that a single serious blow from him is continental level+. At the same time, I do not accept it because I argue that his anger may lead him to make hyperbole claims to relief himself of his stress. Similar to "I'm going to kill someone/wreck something if blahblah doesn't get better"

WB - I will not be surprised if he does wreck the world, knowing his top-tier status and his quake abilities. But like all "planet-busting" claims, it's possible that he can only accomplish that through an extended period of time, and what's being destroyed is not the entire planet itself but rather human civilization as they know it.
You really think Saitama is one to exaggerate?

R
11-05-2015, 11:55 PM
saitama is one of these characters where i buy the statements due to the way he is portraied -> limitless (for now) with zero effort continental+

he could obviously be planetlevel

Ichiryuu
11-06-2015, 12:08 AM
While I don't have a problem with Saitama being planet level and while I do believe he could be planet level, I'd rather not make him planet level based off of "just" that panel. Despite us knowing how his personality is, that manga panel is written extremely comedic (not sure if supposed to be that way or just ugly art) and it feels like him just saying that he's pissed that he's been having some bad luck today. Of course I only watch the onepunchman anime and have only heard a few things about onepunchman, so I do not know how far this is in the manga and I have no clue if there's other specific things to back up his level that would validate something like this.

Whitebeard seems clearly hyperbole to me.

As for Cell, I've never been really convinced about the claims db characters made especially the ones that are evil or have evil traits, they often don't end up being true either.
Aside from this one statement I don't think there was anything that would possibly hint at him being at this level aside from a possible sense of powerscaling.

with the Toriko one Toriko is assuming, so we clearly can't say that Midora would be Large Planet level from just this, but the fact that we get so many disciples strength foreshadowing throughout the series since the beginning, Toriko's assumption feels like another hint for "confirmation"

Rax
11-06-2015, 12:17 AM
Etherion for example

It's been stated countless times by reliable sources to in fact be country level

Makenzye
11-06-2015, 01:44 AM
I really don't have a problem with Star-busting Cell tbh, since he was the strongest in the series at that point and the context was to outline that he gained immense power compared to his non-super form (who was large planet level+). I do question his reliability, and his new arrogance from being significantly more powerful may explain overestimation of his own ki levels. Also seeing as how some word-of-mouth claims weren't proven until the next arc, I wouldn't be surprised if Cell was overhyping himself. Decide this by consensus (though it has already been generally agreed that it was hyperbole).

Toriko's statement is context-approved, fits with other things we know, and relevant to the plot.

Saitama - This page suggests that a truly bloodlusted Saitama is planet level, which I believe since we know that a single serious blow from him is continental level+. At the same time, I do not accept it because I argue that his anger may lead him to make hyperbole claims to relief himself of his stress. Similar to "I'm going to kill someone/wreck something if blahblah doesn't get better"

WB - I will not be surprised if he does wreck the world, knowing his top-tier status and his quake abilities. But like all "planet-busting" claims, it's possible that he can only accomplish that through an extended period of time, and what's being destroyed is not the entire planet itself but rather human civilization as they know it.

In a rare move, I will say I actually have a significant problem with believing Cell could destroy a star. This isn't really me pointing anything at you, Egress. This is just me going off the handle at the topic at hand.

At no point do any of the characters at that stage have anything close to star sized destructive capability. Destroy a planet? Definitely. Destroy a large planet? Sure. Destroy a star six million times the size of the first planet? That's beyond a massive jump. Especially as up to that point the only way characters were destroying rocky planets was by using the inner mechanics of pressure and whatnot to facilitate destruction. To have achieved this level of power means that when Goku and Gohan went into the Time Chamber, and really when ANYBODY went into the time chamber, they came out MILLIONS of times more powerful than they were previously. Millions of times plus since it would imply to "blow away a star" they have to out explode a star which detonates with so much damn force our planet would simply atomize on contact, which again the DBZ characters never exhibited an ability to do. Why would they have to be that much more powerful post time chamberl? Well, because Goku and Gohan were fighting pretty on par with Perfect Cell implying they reached a similar power, and then Gohan doubled it at the very end. They wouldn't be worrying about destroying Earth when Vegeta charges up a mega powerful Final Flash to go at Cell in desperation, they'd be worrying about destroying Earth every damn time Vegeta threw a scatter shot.

Again I agree with planets. Large planets, small planets, planets as big as our moon. Stars? Different neighborhood altogether.

Cell is a blowhard. I didn't believe it the first fifteen dozen times Vegeta claimed to be a Super Saiyan because he didn't know what the heck he was talking about, and Cell is much worse about it.


Etherion for example

It's been stated countless times by reliable sources to in fact be country level

I don't mind explanations like this from within a story if it comes from a reputable source from within the story itself. If it's just a bunch of characters repeating what they believe that's not very reliable. But if it's someone with close intricate knowledge, possibly someone who controls it, then I'm comfortable with it. Granted the most likely country size they are talking about is the one the writer understands best: Their home country of Japan. So I always take it with a grain of salt anyway. It's why superheroes have really weird concepts on countrywide devastating power. To them destroying home is just a country, but that level of devastation would be an entire continent in Europe.

Ichiryuu
11-06-2015, 01:51 AM
Makenzye what's your take on Coco's mold spears?

Makenzye
11-06-2015, 01:58 AM
@Makenzye (http://www.millenniumforums.com/member.php?u=757) what's your take on Coco's mold spears?

They're sort of weird because of how Toriko sometimes just dumps information on us through clunky exposition like this. It can be just hyperbole with Coco talking about the sheer near lightspeed of his spears, but the author has such a desire for us to know some of the metrics and methods of his characters that he does things just like this. He wants us to know just how strong or how fast or how resilient his characters are sometimes to a T and we usually only get that info from the characters themselves.

Ichiryuu
11-06-2015, 02:09 AM
They're sort of weird because of how Toriko sometimes just dumps information on us through clunky exposition like this. It can be just hyperbole with Coco talking about the sheer near lightspeed of his spears, but the author has such a desire for us to know some of the metrics and methods of his characters that he does things just like this. He wants us to know just how strong or how fast or how resilient his characters are sometimes to a T and we usually only get that info from the characters themselves.

It doesn't seem like hyperbole to me, because he mentioned they were LS twice the last time he mentioned that he said that bambina easily dodged them but they were at LS.

Aside from that we have a few things to go on, the speed doesn't seem like an outlier for the verse itself, because similar speeds are reached later on. Coco is one of the smartest and probably most reliable person in the verse, so I don't think he would call them LS with certainty if he wasn't sure about it.

The Mold Spear was always shown to impact the enemy at the same exact panel as it was thrown.

something that's not so significant, but might be slightly relevant is that it's a High quality move that he can only use once or twice early on in the series and with ENBU maybe a few times at max(probably).

Therefore I always thought that the statement could be taken more seriously and was accurate after it was mentioned the second time. at least that's my take on it.

Makenzye
11-06-2015, 02:22 AM
It doesn't seem like hyperbole to me, because he mentioned they were LS twice the last time he mentioned that he said that bambina easily dodged them but they were at LS.

Aside from that we have a few things to go on, the speed doesn't seem like an outlier for the verse itself, because similar speeds are reached later on. Coco is one of the smartest and probably most reliable person in the verse, so I don't think he would call them LS with certainty if he wasn't sure about it.

The Mold Spear was always shown to impact the enemy at the same exact panel as it was thrown.

something that's not so significant, but might be slightly relevant is that it's a High quality move that he can only use once or twice early on in the series and with ENBU maybe a few times at max(probably).

Therefore I always thought that the statement could be taken more seriously and was accurate after it was mentioned the second time. at least that's my take on it.

I would agree. Especially with the whole Back Channel thing.

I just mean with how the author tends to dump vital statistic info in the dialogue itself. The very first time we meet Toriko he gives us an exact stat readout of what he's doing and the animal he deals with. A trend which would continue throughout the series.

I'd say Coco claiming a lightspeed or at least just shy of lightspeed mold spear is trustworthy only because of author clunky dialogue dumps.

Rax
11-06-2015, 03:38 AM
Not really, Mak


Two if the people who said it was country level we're dudes who worked directly with it

Makenzye
11-06-2015, 03:39 AM
Not really what?

Rax
11-06-2015, 03:42 AM
The first time it was stated to be country level was with all of the other council members in the room


Why in the hell would you lie about the power of something when everyone else in the room knows as much about it as you do and has access to the same info on it?

Mercantilist
11-06-2015, 04:07 AM
The first time it was stated to be country level was with all of the other council members in the room


Why in the hell would you lie about the power of something when everyone else in the room knows as much about it as you do and has access to the same info on it?


Because on panel, it busted a tower.

Sai is continental otherwise. I could argue that his use of it was only shown as small city level because Lao G absorbed the shock. Tower couldn't have absorbed that much energy that it went from teratons to MCB, right? Thats like, being cut down to 1/10000000000 of its original power.

Rax
11-06-2015, 04:11 AM
No, it had Ben fired at a tower that had been SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to absorb it and could barely contain it for a few minutes

Also no. The Dressrosa arc is full of fallen through hype


As well as sitting a continent wouldn't make you continent level

Makenzye
11-06-2015, 05:42 AM
The first time it was stated to be country level was with all of the other council members in the room


Why in the hell would you lie about the power of something when everyone else in the room knows as much about it as you do and has access to the same info on it?

I didn't say anything to the otherwise.

So no what?

WILD
11-06-2015, 06:00 AM
I didn't say anything to the contrary.

So no what?
FTFY :rex

Makenzye
11-06-2015, 06:47 AM
No I liked mine better.

I didn't say anything to the otherwise.