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View Full Version : Would you trade free will for a utopian existence?



Live Fast Eat Ass
01-13-2014, 04:40 PM
Not just for you, but the world over. An entire world of peace and happiness. A world where situations that warrant suffering don't exist, and where it would not be possible to know suffering even if they did.

Cake
01-13-2014, 05:21 PM
Eutophia would have free will, no?

V
01-13-2014, 05:22 PM
No because it wouldn't last long

The Gaddess
01-13-2014, 05:25 PM
:lmao

But no. I can't handle the thought of me being the only one without free will.

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-13-2014, 05:27 PM
I don't think you guys understand the question.

Pacifista
01-13-2014, 05:38 PM
I think a world in which we can make our own decisions and decide for ourselves has great merit in it. The progress that is made is purely our own, as opposed to it being a natural state of affairs. However, in this utopia the thoughts I just expressed wouldn't exist because there'd be no reason for them---they couldn't even be comprehended. Therefore, in a utopia one wouldn't be burdened with trying to decide or make things for themselves or advance. Everything is already set.

Still. I think that living in a world in which you can see yours and the growth of others is a worthy existence. Now, my thought processes might be a bit different from someone who isn't nearly as fortunate as I am---easily available and accessible nutritious food, water, shelter, education, etc---but I haven't given up on existence just yet. In such a decision, however, I suppose I could be called incredibly selfish if I had the choice and denied it. It's a choice worth mulling over.

Crispinianus
01-13-2014, 05:49 PM
Hell no.

Utopia is a boring concept in the first place, so I'm not trading my free will for anything.

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-13-2014, 05:50 PM
I don't think you guys understand the question.

To clarify, this is basically a very, very old question concerning why god allows suffering in the world when he could theoretically create a perfect world. The response is usually because it would take away our free will. Im asking if you think it would be worth it.

Tsu
01-13-2014, 06:06 PM
Eutophia would have free will, no?

Ignoring the intention of the question; no. You really can't tell me you think a Utopia could ever exist while people had free will. As a species we're too flawed to have that be a possibility.

As for question;

Yeah. I would.

Cake
01-13-2014, 06:53 PM
Ignoring the intention of the question; no. You really can't tell me you think a Utopia could ever exist while people had free will. As a species we're too flawed to have that be a possibility.

As for question;

Yeah. I would.

Dont be mean to me, bad tsu!

If you have no free will I think you have no life, I mean yeah life sucks and shit but to answer the question no, i wouldn't.

Fucking communists.

Allara
01-13-2014, 07:04 PM
It can only ever be one or the other, huh

idk maybe

The decision to live in a world without freewill is still a decision made from freewill itself, technically the only way we could ever truly live without freewill is if we weren't given a choice which isnt the case here

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Ignoring the intention of the question; no. You really can't tell me you think a Utopia could ever exist while people had free will. As a species we're too flawed to have that be a possibility.

As for question;

Yeah. I would.

I think what cake means is that her definition of a Utopia doesnt exist unless free will exists withinin it in some form or another, too therefore have a Utopia without freewill is a logical fallacy

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-13-2014, 07:53 PM
It can only ever be one or the other, huh

idk maybe

The decision to live in a world without freewill is still a decision made from freewill itself, technically the only way we could ever truly live without freewill is if we weren't given a choice which isnt the case here

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I think what cake means is that her definition of a Utopia doesnt exist unless free will exists withinin it in some form or another, too therefore have a Utopia without freewill is a logical fallacy
Yet her opinion on what a utopia is wouldn't exist without free will.

Tsu
01-13-2014, 07:54 PM
Dont be mean to me, bad tsu!

If you have no free will I think you have no life, I mean yeah life sucks and shit but to answer the question no, i wouldn't.

Fucking communists.

I ain't being mean, I'm just sayin' that a utopia that includes free will is an impossibility due to the inherent nature of our species.


It can only ever be one or the other, huh

idk maybe

The decision to live in a world without freewill is still a decision made from freewill itself, technically the only way we could ever truly live without freewill is if we weren't given a choice which isnt the case here

I think what cake means is that her definition of a Utopia doesnt exist unless free will exists withinin it in some form or another, too therefore have a Utopia without freewill is a logical fallacy

I knew what she was saying, I'm saying that definition of utopia isn't a realistic possibility (utopia and realistic in the same sentence, lel)

And yeah, technically it still would be a world tainted with free will since the decision to enter that state was caused by free will, but a removal of free will is the only way to approach this question unless the question is would you rather an omnipotent being nuked the planet and started again.

Game Master
01-13-2014, 07:59 PM
I wouldnt trade it, cause why would I trade something that god gave it to me since birth?

Plus... It's pointless really, cause an utopian society will never exist... Human nature at this time and age is too barbaric, maybe the more accurate term would be "merciless"... Everyone would sell anyone for their own benifit. And think about it, there has to be someone controlling this "country" or world... And dont you think that this same 1 person would be doing it for his own benifit? I mean he/she know that we as humans just lost our free will, we're as good as the PCs we're sitting on and using to communicate.

So the answer would no, and forever it will remain a no.

Marimo
01-13-2014, 08:01 PM
Simple answer: nope

V
01-13-2014, 08:29 PM
Lets get the complicated answer marimo

Marimo
01-13-2014, 08:45 PM
Ok....Utopian existence is boring. Everything is right, nothing is wrong, and everything is just as you want it to be. And that's not fun. A utopia is basically an existence that is too good for this world but I won't call it perfect. Because even a Utopia would have something that's missing. Conflict. For me, a boring perfect world is bland. There has to be something to work for... (Fuck you V tricking me into doing this e_e I see you what did there)... Life is full of pleasures that are only able to be fully enjoyed when they're really worked for and when you can get a good sense of accomplishment from exceeding in a goal you've been working for. I don't want a boring perfect world. Where's the real joy there? As much as I hate the struggle, it felt a great sense of joy from a recent accomplishment that couldn't have been in a utopia. The goal of life is to make the world you live in a Utopia.

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-13-2014, 08:52 PM
Ok....Utopian existence is boring. Everything is right, nothing is wrong, and everything is just as you want it to be. And that's not fun. A utopia is basically an existence that is too good for this world but I won't call it perfect. Because even a Utopia would have something that's missing. Conflict. For me, a boring perfect world is bland. There has to be something to work for... (Fuck you V tricking me into doing this e_e I see you what did there)... Life is full of pleasures that are only able to be fully enjoyed when they're really worked for and when you can get a good sense of accomplishment from exceeding in a goal you've been working for. I don't want a boring perfect world. Where's the real joy there? As much as I hate the struggle, it felt a great sense of joy from a recent accomplishment that couldn't have been in a utopia. The goal of life is to make the world you live in a Utopia.

But you realize without free will all these points are rendered moot.

Marimo
01-13-2014, 09:05 PM
That's exactly why I wouldn't want it.

Free Will is choice. Of course in this scenario I'd have no choice of what's what but I'd still have emotions wouldn't I? I could still feel sadness, happiness, dread, jealousy, anger and so on, right? I could still have preferences and my personality, I just wouldn't have the choice of doing what I want. Possibly not having the ability to think for myself and I'd have to follow a system that's built to last, but there would come a time where just being content, wouldn't be enough. Utopia's are for beings without the ability to think. It ain't for me.

Now the question asked was would I trade my Free Will for a Utopia? I stand by first statement, no.

Pimp of Pimps
01-13-2014, 09:23 PM
To clarify, this is basically a very, very old question concerning why god allows suffering in the world when he could theoretically create a perfect world. The response is usually because it would take away our free will. Im asking if you think it would be worth it.

I thought the answer is usually that the utopia is for the next life?

Anyway, no I wouldn't.

pizzadust
01-13-2014, 09:27 PM
If no one is willing to give up free will than the logical conclusion is that free will is part of Utopia.

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-13-2014, 09:32 PM
That's exactly why I wouldn't want it.

Free Will is choice. Of course in this scenario I'd have no choice of what's what but I'd still have emotions wouldn't I? I could still feel sadness, happiness, dread, jealousy, anger and so on, right? I could still have preferences and my personality, I just wouldn't have the choice of doing what I want. Possibly not having the ability to think for myself and I'd have to follow a system that's built to last, but there would come a time where just being content, wouldn't be enough. Utopia's are for beings without the ability to think. It ain't for me.

Now the question asked was would I trade my Free Will for a Utopia? I stand by first statement, no.
You're personality and preferences wouldn't be you're choice. Everyone would be perfectly content and blissful, always.

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I thought the answer is usually that the utopia is for the next life?

Anyway, no I wouldn't.

For people who believe in that, I suppose.

Marimo
01-13-2014, 09:34 PM
That sounds hella boring. Might as well be robots at that point.

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-13-2014, 09:39 PM
That sounds hella boring. Might as well be robots at that point.
It wouldn't be. Hell, it couldn't be or it wouldn't be. You don't think it would be worth it to erase suffering. After the fact its essentially the same as any reservations you have about it now having never existed in the first place.

Marimo
01-13-2014, 10:00 PM
How would you know what true joy is without having first felt suffering in any form? You would know content and maybe an illusion of happiness, but not what it truly means to feel happy. And what about Sports? Or any sort of entertainment where one goes against another? Both teams can't win, there has to be a loser. That doesn't sound like a Utopia because one way or another, one ends up on one side, and one on the other. Separation doesn't sound like something that belongs in a Utopia. Perfection is an illusion. I don't understand why you're trying to make me re think my answer. It's still no, and it' not gonna change.

Riki
01-13-2014, 10:08 PM
yeah fuck free will

Crispinianus
01-13-2014, 10:09 PM
yeah fuck free will

Of course you would say yes, you little Chinese communist

DoflaMihawk
01-13-2014, 10:17 PM
Sure, if it's for the greater good.

Tom
01-13-2014, 11:39 PM
Can we just drug ourselves to always be happy? I wanna big up my Soma game.

Ultra
01-14-2014, 12:05 AM
I don't believe happiness to be the ultimate goal for life, so no.

Besides, if there is no strife, there is no happiness, there must be a contrast for either quality to exist. If happiness is the standard, it just becomes the norm.

Pimp of Pimps
01-14-2014, 12:07 AM
A utopia in this world wouldn't be right. This world is too limited in so many ways for a utopia to work. I don't mean limited in terms of resources, I mean limited in terms of concepts.

For a utopia to truly be a utopia, it has to be beyond human understanding.

HeWhoSmokesBitches
01-14-2014, 03:54 AM
That shit is deep

Doma
01-14-2014, 04:40 AM
It kind of feels wrong in some way. But that also might just be because it's different and I don't understand it. Plus, modern science says we don't have free will anyways so this would basically be a free pass into a utopian society.

I figure I'll just flip a coin and go with that.

Ultra
01-14-2014, 04:43 AM
It kind of feels wrong in some way. But that also might just be because it's different and I don't understand it. Plus, modern science says we don't have free will anyways so this would basically be a free pass into a utopian society.

I figure I'll just flip a coin and go with that.

Well, it depends on your definition of free will. You have free will in the sense that you can make your own decisions, but you essentially have no control over what those decisions will be, assuming the universe is completely deterministic.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that's 100% the case though, according to "modern science" . Quantum events are only predictable within certain probabilities, at least for us, so they may be operating deterministically or not, but we haven't figured that out yet.

Doma
01-14-2014, 04:49 AM
Yeah, I didn't mean to make it seem like an absolute. It was more of like a maybe.

pizzadust
01-14-2014, 04:54 AM
Can we just drug ourselves to always be happy? I wanna big up my Soma game.

Brave New World?

Halaros 536
01-15-2014, 10:07 PM
It kind of feels wrong in some way. But that also might just be because it's different and I don't understand it. Plus, modern science says we don't have free will anyways so this would basically be a free pass into a utopian society.

I figure I'll just flip a coin and go with that.

Modern science can't understand conscience well yet. There are many interesting ideas on this matter but nothing solidly suports determinism as far as I know.

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-16-2014, 12:44 AM
A utopia in this world wouldn't be right. This world is too limited in so many ways for a utopia to work. I don't mean limited in terms of resources, I mean limited in terms of concepts.

For a utopia to truly be a utopia, it has to be beyond human understanding.
This world is beyond human understanding.

Monstrous Vegetation
01-25-2014, 12:15 PM
Brave New World?

Pretty much.

I don't think there's an utopia without freedom. By definition, a utopia is a perfect place. If you don't have the freedom to do whatever you want, there's no way it's an utopia. At best you get one or the other of 1984 or Brave New World. At worst, you get a combination of both.

If you want a happy, perfect life; you have to go through a lot of work to get it. I, personally, am trying to figure out what kind of job would make me happy. If I can do that and pursue it, I would do whatever work is necessary to make this a reality. This is why people go through a lot of work to keep relationships going, it has the ability to make them happy (if the match is good enough to begin with). Free will is, in my opinion, the path to happiness.

Pimp of Pimps
01-25-2014, 05:13 PM
This world is beyond human understanding.

No it's not.

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-25-2014, 05:26 PM
Yes it is

Big Boss
01-25-2014, 05:57 PM
Not just for you, but the world over. An entire world of peace and happiness. A world where situations that warrant suffering don't exist, and where it would not be possible to know suffering even if they did.

Who are you and what have you done to the real mammal?

To answer your question - hell naw. That shit's boring.


Eutophia would have free will, no?

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110203000615/coffee/images/f/fa/Ethiopia.gif

Underfed Somali
01-25-2014, 11:25 PM
What is free will? What is will?

The Will to do something is based upon, as was formerly mentioned, the choices made upon a certain perspective.

That perspective is that which you understand as your own.

The Lack of free will in many people's view is then that they can't have an opinion or that they can't decide for their own.

I disagree. I believe that even without free will the occurrences aren't preordained.


I will try to explain what I mean.

Your opinions and the choices which you perceive are determined by your free will. Actually I believe that free will is the thing that is preventing you from seeing all possible choices that can be made within a universe. But every single one of those choices are always viewed upon from a single point. A point that is derived from the fact that in your mind, in the idea of what you believe is the truth and how the universe works, you are trapped in your body.


Without free will, or as I'd like to say it. When your viewpoint is not derived from the ideas you have of yourself and the universe, but you are in fact devoid of all viewpoints and you can see that for what everything truly is, then you have arrived at a state that is pointless, so to speak.

In that state, you will see that all previous choices that were made were made with only yourself in mind, your viewpoint was fixated on your own.

And when you have no points to derive your opinion from, you in essence, have no free will anymore, because everything you do from that moment onward, will be done in accordance to what is best for everything in the universe, because as you are inside the universe, you also have a universe inside you.

What is outside is also inside. That is one of the laws of the universe. What is inside is equal to what is outside.

When lacking free will, you will in fact always do what is best for all of the universe, and yes you will be blissful always, and time will collapse upon itself, because what was is not anymore, and what will be is what is here in the present. Eternally.



So yes I would throw away my free will, because in essence, then I will be who I always should've been. And not what I perceive myself to be. What I think I should be or what I thought I could be.

Then I just AM. In the great BEing of the universe. I will stand equal as one to all of existence and dance my joyous dance. In the present, but also echoing in eternity.


People who want to suffer are just masochistic and want to boast to others or themselves about their pride, while in fact when you are free from those perspectives, you will become pride. You will be in essence pride. Not the idea, but the living embodiment.


THat's what a utopia means. Doing what is best for All.

What you guys think is an utopia, is in fact a dystopia, where everybody does nothing at all, except survive. Which isn't a utopia, that's just a waste.

Edit:
PS: Sidenote, the fact that everything you do is based on what is going on in your mind. Is in fact also no free will.

I will state that nobody that ever lived or ever will live has had a free will. Free will doesn't exist. Only perspectives.

Live Fast Eat Ass
01-25-2014, 11:29 PM
What is free will? What is will?

The Will to do something is based upon, as was formerly mentioned, the choices made upon a certain perspective.

That perspective is that which you understand as your own.

The Lack of free will in many people's view is then that they can't have an opinion or that they can't decide for their own.

I disagree. I believe that even without free will the occurrences aren't preordained.


I will try to explain what I mean.

Your opinions and the choices which you perceive are determined by your free will. Actually I believe that free will is the thing that is preventing you from seeing all possible choices that can be made within a universe. But every single one of those choices are always viewed upon from a single point. A point that is derived from the fact that in your mind, in the idea of what you believe is the truth and how the universe works, you are trapped in your body.


Without free will, or as I'd like to say it. When your viewpoint is not derived from the ideas you have of yourself and the universe, but you are in fact devoid of all viewpoints and you can see that for what everything truly is, then you have arrived at a state that is pointless, so to speak.

In that state, you will see that all previous choices that were made were made with only yourself in mind, your viewpoint was fixated on your own.

And when you have no points to derive your opinion from, you in essence, have no free will anymore, because everything you do from that moment onward, will be done in accordance to what is best for everything in the universe, because as you are inside the universe, you also have a universe inside you.

What is outside is also inside. That is one of the laws of the universe. What is inside is equal to what is outside.

When lacking free will, you will in fact always do what is best for all of the universe, and yes you will be blissful always, and time will collapse upon itself, because what was is not anymore, and what will be is what is here in the present. Eternally.



So yes I would throw away my free will, because in essence, then I will be who I always should've been. And not what I perceive myself to be. What I think I should be or what I thought I could be.

Then I just AM. In the great BEing of the universe. I will stand equal as one to all of existence and dance my joyous dance. In the present, but also echoing in eternity.


People who want to suffer are just masochistic and want to boast to others or themselves about their pride, while in fact when you are free from those perspectives, you will become pride. You will be in essence pride. Not the idea, but the living embodiment.


THat's what a utopia means. Doing what is best for All.

What you guys think is an utopia, is in fact a dystopia, where everybody does nothing at all, except survive. Which isn't a utopia, that's just a waste.

Edit:
PS: Sidenote, the fact that everything you do is based on what is going on in your mind. Is in fact also no free will.

I will state that nobody that ever lived or ever will live has had a free will. Free will doesn't exist. Only perspectives.

So...did a dolphin tell you this?

Underfed Somali
01-26-2014, 12:10 AM
So...did a dolphin tell you this?

Ok so it doesn't make much sense to you.

To be entirely honest, it doesn't make perfect sense to me either, but it strikes a certain chord. A resonance so to speak.

Did a dolphin tell me this? No. Did it try to speak to me? Perhaps.

Did I listen? Of course not. Cause I can't understand dolphinspeak.

You do post an interesting concept, which is can people understand dolphins and vice versa?

Many people claim they can understand dolphin, of which most are probably entirely false.

I do know of one reliable source of a man that can communicate quite eloquently with wolves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5rN1m2nJzk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4vFBXOoHs0

What am I saying is in short: free will doesn't exist. Never existed and will never exist.

So if there was a choice to don free will for a Utopian existence is quite redundant. Cause I wouldn't have the choice in the first place. Having no free will so to speak.

So yes. I will choose yes.

X
02-25-2014, 07:44 PM
Ah, I read a book like this once where basically everyone was brainwashed into believing what they were doing was good and the world was basically a utopia. Or I guess it was in my opinion because some people did think the world was a distopia. If I did not know that I had ever had free will, or that suffering ever existed, I do think I would trade it in for a utopia.